Revelation; The two witnesses

Originally posted by MrCobb
Maybe, but I believe it is one woman: Jerusalem. Well, both just happen to be found in the wilderness, that much is sure... they convey that there is one woman who begins beautiful and ends a whore;

You don't notice how these two women are not only behaving differently, but also being treated differently.
For one thing, there is more than one wilderness in the world. Sahara is a wilderness, and Antarctica is a wilderness, but they are not by any means the same place. Babylon is in the kind of wilderness where she rests on "many waters" echoing the waters of the abyss which God had to deal with at the creation of the world. Whereas the woman of ch12 gets into the kind of wilderness which the dragon attempted to flood with water, but the waters were all swallowed up.
In fact all the imagery in the last part of ch12 is Exodus imagery, or at least "escape from Egypt" imagery.
Let me see, the one we want here is
On an eagle's wings
Briefly;
The dragon- Egypt imagery ; "the great dragon that lies in the midst of his streams"- Ezekiel ch29 v3
Trying to cover the earth with a flood- Egypt imagery- Jeremiah ch46 v8
Earth opening up and swallowing the water- Exodus imagery- Exodus ch15 v12
The most blatant piece of Exodus imagery is the two wings of the great eagle- "You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I lifted you up on eagles' wings and brought you to myself"- Exodus ch19 v4.
The whole passage is an echo of the Exodus experience, coming to a climax in the "flight into the wilderness", which is, of course, part of the climax of the Exodus.
There, in the wilderness, she will be "nourished", just as the Israelites were fed with manna. Exodus imagery again.
The logical conclusion of this wilderness experience is that she would pass through it and be brought into the promised land". And indeed that is exactly what happens in the last couple of chapters of Revelation. So if the woman of ch12 "morphs" into anything, it is into the "new Jerusalem" of ch21.

So these two women are not the same woman. At the very most they are twins, the good twin and the evil twin.

In any case, the imagery of Harlot Babylon is a lot more complex than you realise. If you try to limit her to the "unfaithful church", you are oversimplying. There has to be a political element as well, because the Old Testament Babylon is the political power which destroyed the Temple. So those who want to identify her with Rome cannot be 100% wrong (but they're also guilty of oversimplifying).
See Harlot Babylon; Twinned with Rome

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by MrCobb
Maybe, but I believe it is one woman: Jerusalem. Well, both just happen to be found in the wilderness, that much is sure... they convey that there is one woman who begins beautiful and ends a whore;

You don't notice how these two women are not only behaving differently, but also being treated differently.

Well sure, just like the one woman at Ezekiel 16; both behaving differently, both treated differently; same woman; different times.

For one thing, there is more than one wilderness in the world.

The Rev calls it "THE wilderness" so there is only one; this is clearly Exodus imagery, as you yourself note later on. The worship of the golden calf at Sinai is a picture of the Revelation wilderness events. Israel worshipping the golden calf IS the whore.

So if the woman of ch12 "morphs" into anything, it is into the "new Jerusalem" of ch21.

No, the Exodus creates a parallel model which is clear. The woman goes into the wilderness "on eagles wings" and worships a golden calf becoming a whore.

You're seeing one woman going through a series of events. Now, granted there is also a faithful seed in this woman- but there has only ever been one woman.

reply to post by DISRAELI



My response to the claims made about the year 2012 was that I could see no prophetic significance in the date.
This position seems to have been vindicated.

This series was running ten years ago, and might be becoming topical again.

originally posted by: clever024
This is a good assumption however I believe you to have over thought it just a little bit. IMO The two witnesses will as you said "Resume" the roles of Moses and Elijah. "Once their dead there not coming back" read revelations a little closer and notice when Jesus speaks he says "My new name" and also in the book of John when Jesus says "It's to your benefit that I go, for if I do not go the Holy Spirit, Whom proceeds directly from God, cannot come forth and bear witness to you of me and all that is true." or something to the effect of the afformentoned phrase. so think a new Jesus, and 2 new prophects.

I also concur. Take notice as well, Moses and Elijah, were the only two humans "raptured" from earth into heaven in a loose sense, apart from Christ. So having them literally return wouldn't be too far of a stretch, as it could be viewed as a masterful fulfillment of part of God's plan spanning thousands of years. However, the extra part you mention concercning Jeremiah, I take pause to. Is that spritual "gift" or "trait" of a different order than that of elijahs and moses assuming they are both of a same calibar.

a reply to: TTU77
I still think the symbolic allusions to Moses, Elijah, and Jeremiah are all about "having the same function".

originally posted by: DISRAELI
reply to post by Logarock

 

You say Moses and Elijah.
What's your response to those who argue the case for Enoch?

Moses had the power of plagues, no?+

a reply to: TTU77
Yes, I agree that the Moses reference is more relevant. I think I was just qestioning the "literal return" idea by pointing out that other people could take it in different ways.

originally posted by: nlouise
Good research on the post DISRAELI.



The tranfiguration of Jesus with Moses and Elijah are representative of The Law and the Prophets and how they must give way to Jesus Christ. Also Moses represents those who die and go to be with the Lord, Elijah represents those who won't die that will see the return of Jesus Christ.

wow

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originally posted by: Logarock


Not really friend. This was Jesus becoming one of "them" not they giving way to Jesus. It was part of the fullfilling or the prophets and in this case becoming transformed. There are several reasons this is true. Important here is that their work is not done. If Christs transfiguration was to mark an end of something there would be no need for the two witnesses to come latter. Moses and Elijah represent grace here.

"If you knew Moses you would know Me for Moses spoke of Me"


What do you think happend to Elijah? Hes on life support somewhere? Hes in a transfigured state right now....which means granted exstended life untill the time of his return and death. Christ gained that state. Christ had to gain that state. But then became first born, first fruit amoung many brothers and is now in a GLORIFIED state. The witnesses will have to give up thier transfigured state by passing through death at some point.

When Stephen was stoned, he looked up to heaven and saw Jesus STANDING on the right hand of God. Some intrept this to mean that if israel chose to accept Jesus as messiah after they martyed him - which they always "had" to do, then the Kingdom of Heaven would have came down right then and there, and Elijah and Moses would then act as the two witnesses to the Jews. Since they rejected the Messiah, for the final third time with the death of Stephen, the 1000 year reign was postponed until the full number of gentiles was brought in -- also causing the Jews to be jealous and see the truth - for God is not done with Israel by far. Notice after the stone of Stephen in Acts, it was a transitional period. After that point, the gospel went out to the Gentiles in full force, with the new apostle Paul - the apostle of the Gentiles. For Jesus also commanded the earliest actions of the apostles, before Paul, to go to the Jews first only, no?

Food for thought