Send Tamil migrants home: Poll

reply to post by SimplyGord


That same article also appeared in the Toronto Sun, and for that reason alone I would treat it as suspect.

However, we do not know the circumstances of each of these refugee's visits back home. They may have faced the danger only if they remained in Sri Lanka, or perhaps were evicted but still enjoy visiting.

These are the exact same issues and questions that accompanied the Slavic refugees into Canada during the Yugoslav Wars. I wonder if anyone would doubt the danger and deprivation of living in that volatile region now?

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

If you do not accomodate migrants, then it will be harder for them to fit into society. If you want them to fit in, you should accomodate them.

If they come here unwilling to fit into our society and expect us to make accomodations due to their cultural differences then I for one don't want them. Come to Canada to become a Canadian. Come here willing to make accomodations to fit in. Don't come here for our social programs and a free life.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

Hard to compare the two groups. First off; I do not remember any East Europeans arriving by the boatload with not an ID among them.
And I do not remember any other group of refugees blocking the streets of Ottawa, contrary to all laws, by protesting for three days.
Still say Canadians are having their good heartstrings played by experts.

Originally posted by SimplyGord
One might think of refugees as people who are escaping unspeakable conditions. In the case of the Tamils this does not hold.
An article in the Ottawa Citizen newspaper, dated Aug.23, states that a large number of Tamils who arrived in Canada as refugees have returned to Sri Lanka for vacations, to take money, and to organize for more Tamils to come to Canada.
Imagine going back to face torture and death, or worse, for a vacation.
Canadians are being played like a fiddle on this issue.
Honest people do not loose their identification en masse, then hide their faces when arriving in their new home. Nor suffer three months on a rusty ship when they could have afforded first class all around for the same amount of money paid.

Well said.

If they weren't the families of the Tamils and if they choose to follow the proper channels for immigrating here, we wouldn't be debating this.

I am always conflicted about these situations. I don't find it so easy to make people return to where they so obviously don't want to be.

What I would find interesting is the break down of who is most against this. Some of the people I have talked to who have the most problem with this are people who did immigrate through the "proper" channels.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


I don't think there are any migrants like that, except refugees. Every willing migrant comes here knowing that they will, at the very least, be obliged to obey the law in exchange for the privilege of citizenship. If their own habits disagree with the law, then they will haev to curtail those habits.

Refugees are unwilling migrants. They are fleeing their home for reasons beyond their control, and come to Canada only because it is a safe place to be. Why do many refugees return home to visit friends and family, to do business, to vacation? Because they want to see with their own eyes whether or not their home is still there, and whether or not it is safe or desirable to return. Many refugees are unable to move back home or unwilling to do so; perhaps they have a better deal in Canada. They wrap up their affairs there, and try to sponsor their families and bring them to live in Canada, their new home. Many refugees go back home and decide that it is safe and desirable enough to return; they were unwilling to trade their old identity for a new Canadian one, and went back home. The ones that remain in this country are willing migrants, though they may be more or less enthusiastic about their new home.

I think that you are upset by a phantasm. The migrants that truly do not want to be here, truly do not want to accomodate themselves to Canada in any meaningful way, return home. Those that remain, even if they originally did not want to come to Canada, accomodate themselves by degrees to their new nation. If they did not do so, they would be in breach of the law and would be deported. The system works.

If you expect migrants to become more accomodating of your culture, then you should give them a good reason to. Nothing in this world is free. If you expect respect from them, you should afford them respect in turn. Everything in life is a compromise between two opposite positions, and under this country's constitution, you are obliged to let their positions be heard. If you do not, then you are violating the law.

I just cannot see how you can sit there and act as though it is possible for migrants to become 'Canadian' overnight. It seems that you have absolutely no patience with migrants making a very difficult transition in their lives, and that you have little to no tolerance for people who do not want to become you. I think that I must be misreading you in some way. I think that you only want people to come to this country if they:

a) are absolutely loyal and patriotic to a country they have never lived in
b) become utterly 'Canadian,' with no foreign habits, beliefs or convictions
c) have no loyalty to foreign nations or peoples

Am I correct, or incorrect in making these last three assumptions?

Originally posted by Aeons
What I would find interesting is the break down of who is most against this. Some of the people I have talked to who have the most problem with this are people who did immigrate through the "proper" channels.

I mentioned this earlier. A few Pakistani and Indian friends of mine have been going on about it for a few years now. They are getting a bad reputation due to the massive influx of migrants who are not assimilating in our society and abusing the system. As my Pakistani friend said if they(other pakistani people) like the way things were back in pakistan, "#*%K off and go back there". He came to Canada to get away from that ideology and now he sees that ideology being brought here into our society by people who don't want to be Canadian but want to reap the bennifits we provide and we are allowing it to happen.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
I mentioned this earlier. A few Pakistani and Indian friends of mine have been going on about it for a few years now. They are getting a bad reputation due to the massive influx of migrants who are not assimilating in our society and abusing the system. As my Pakistani friend said if they(other pakistani people) like the way things were back in pakistan, "#*%K off and go back there". He came to Canada to get away from that ideology and now he sees that ideology being brought here into our society by people who don't want to be Canadian but want to reap the bennifits we provide and we are allowing it to happen.

As I said in my above post, if they have come to Canada then there is some way that they do not like the way things were back in Pakistan, and that is why they do not "#*%K off and go back there."

The children born, educated and raised in this country will be more valuable assets than the parents that wish they could go home; the community as a whole is more valuable than the individual person.

edit: broke the paragraph into two parts

[edit on 23-8-2010 by SmedleyBurlap]

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
Every willing migrant comes here knowing that they will, at the very least, be obliged to obey the law in exchange for the privilege of citizenship. If their own habits disagree with the law, then they will haev to curtail those habits.

It has more to do with than just following the laws.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
If you expect migrants to become more accomodating of your culture, then you should give them a good reason to.

Now I need to give migrants a reason to make accomodations when they come here? I am truly starting to despair now. Why not just let them set their own terms already because apparently I should bend over backwards to make them feel at home in my house.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlapI just cannot see how you can sit there and act as though it is possible for migrants to become 'Canadian' overnight. It seems that you have absolutely no patience with migrants making a very difficult transition in their lives, and that you have little to no tolerance for people who do not want to become you. I think that I must be misreading you in some way. I think that you only want people to come to this country if they:

a) are absolutely loyal and patriotic to a country they have never lived in
b) become utterly 'Canadian,' with no foreign habits, beliefs or convictions
c) have no loyalty to foreign nations or peoples

Am I correct, or incorrect in making these last three assumptions?

No you are not correct. It has nothing to do with religion or cultural habits, provided they don't break the law, but has to do with their intentions. You simply will not seperate in your mind that some migrants come here to use our system and not to intergrate into our society or become a member of it.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
The children born, educated and raised in this country will be more valuable assets than the parents that wish they could go home; the community as a whole is more valuable than the individual person.

edit: broke the paragraph into two parts

[edit on 23-8-2010 by SmedleyBurlap]

Some will and the rest will be raised full of hate and prejidice taught to them by their parents whom choose not to intergrate into our society. The rot spreads and spreads and spreads.

I, as an Albertan, am ashamed of that poll.

Maybe I do live in redneck country.

We have a refugee policy because our government, in one of it's few moments of greatness, chose to lead by example.

Why would we stop now?

Is it because they are Tamil?

Nobody seems to mind that we allow Somalis in everyday...oh no's they might be pirates...argggh!

These are people...PEOPLE... and once again we should lead through example.

We should open our doors and our hearts.

And don't give BS about it costing too much, or tax payer burden...tell me that when obesity isn't one of the fastest growing "disorders" in Canada.

Originally posted by peck420
And don't give BS about it costing too much, or tax payer burden...tell me that when obesity isn't one of the fastest growing "disorders" in Canada.

Put your money where your mouth is then and invite some to stay with you and your family and on your dime.

Changes ones perspective no?

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


Not in the least.

I currently work with 2 former refugees, and yes, sometimes they needed my assistance.

Note how I use the term "former", in the past 3 years they have become solid, (soon to be) TAX PAYING citizens.

I have no illusions about Canada and our social democracy.

Our country has been, is currently, and will be sustained on our willingness to help each other, and that is my favourite part of this country.

Edit to add answer to actual question.

Would this change my perspective? No.

Why would it? I already think that Canada has lost its way in the last 20 years and needs to get back to being a country that offers help to all of those in need.

[edit on 23-8-2010 by peck420]

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


There are many safe places in the world. Australia is much closer. But there are few who give full rights to anyone who touches their soil. let alone welfare, medical, dental, legal, education, language training, etc.
A 'refugee' who touches Canada will make more on social assistance than someone who gets basic old age after a life time of paying taxes.
This fact is not lost to many, especially those who sell a trip on a rusty freighter for big money.
If where one is leaving is such a house of horrors, why would someone return for a vacation.
Canada is an easy target and worth every penny spent at sea.

Originally posted by FreeSpeakerNow I need to give migrants a reason to make accomodations when they come here? I am truly starting to despair now. Why not just let them set their own terms already because apparently I should bend over backwards to make them feel at home in my house.

First of all, Canada is not your house. You have a house within Canada. Are these migrants coming into your home and taking things from you? No. They are no more invading your home than the people buying the house next door, or the people moving into a house in another province. Canada does not belong to you. Canada does not obey your rules. You are permitted by the Crown to live here and enjoy the rights of a citizen. You obey the Crown's rules, or you are deprived of those rights. If migrants obey the house rules of the Crown of Canada, then they have as much right to be here as you do.

Migrants do not set the terms for their life in Canada. You do not set the rules for their life in Canada. The Crown sets the rules, and one of the rules is that we should accomodate people of different backgrounds i.e. immigrants.

And please tell me; how have YOU bent over backwards for migrants?

No you are not correct. It has nothing to do with religion or cultural habits, provided they don't break the law, but has to do with their intentions. You simply will not seperate in your mind that some migrants come here to use our system and not to intergrate into our society or become a member of it.

There are people born and raised within Canada, born of citizen parents, who do exactly what you describe. How many Canadians are loyal to this country? How many Canadians try to bilk the system for as much as they can? How many Canadians try to screw other Canadians out of money so that they can ensure their own personal success? I don't mean individuals alone, I mean corporations begging for welfare checks as well.Once again, this isn't a problem that is unique to migrants, they are just the most visible abusers of the system.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
Some will and the rest will be raised full of hate and prejidice taught to them by their parents whom choose not to intergrate into our society. The rot spreads and spreads and spreads.

How is this any different from citizens born and raised in Canada, taught to hate and discriminate against others?

As peck420 says, refugees can and do become productive members of Canadian society. None of the problems you bring up are unique to migrants and refugees, nor are they applicable to all migrants and refugees. Your arguments are empty. You're saying the system should handle abuses of refugee and immigrant status, which it already does; you're saying that migrants should be productive or else go home, which they already do; you're saying that they should accomodate themselves to Canada, which they already do. You are complaining about lazy people in general, not migrants in particular, and it's not like you can seriously claim that migrants are generally lazier and better at exploiting the system than native-born Canadians.

Now, here is a compromise. You stop paying your tax dollars towards refugees and immigrants' short term care costs. I and any other sympathetic Canadians will pay our tax dollars towards them. You can think of your money as going to corporate welfare or police or road maintenance.

edit: This post of yours made absolutely no sense to me.

Put your money where your mouth is then and invite some to stay with you and your family and on your dime.

Has the government forced you to house refugees in your own home? If not, I don't see how this is in any way comparable to the Crown hosting refugees in its territory. It hasn't evicted citizens to make room for refugees, has it?

[edit on 24-8-2010 by SmedleyBurlap]

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
First of all, Canada is not your house. You have a house within Canada. Are these migrants coming into your home and taking things from you? No. They are no more invading your home than the people buying the house next door, or the people moving into a house in another province. Canada does not belong to you. Canada does not obey your rules. You are permitted by the Crown to live here and enjoy the rights of a citizen. You obey the Crown's rules, or you are deprived of those rights. If migrants obey the house rules of the Crown of Canada, then they have as much right to be here as you do.

Take a pill already. Ever heard of "figure of speech".

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlapMigrants do not set the terms for their life in Canada. You do not set the rules for their life in Canada. The Crown sets the rules, and one of the rules is that we should accomodate people of different backgrounds i.e. immigrants.

You are correct and nowhere in the rules does it say boatloads of unidentifiable refugees are allowed to sail into our waters and make themselves at home. Sorry pal, they broke the rules buy bypassing our immigration laws.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlapThere are people born and raised within Canada, born of citizen parents, who do exactly what you describe.

Thats why we have enough burdens already and we should spend our resources fixing the problems we have without adding to them.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlapNow, here is a compromise. You stop paying your tax dollars towards refugees and immigrants' short term care costs. I and any other sympathetic Canadians will pay our tax dollars towards them. You can think of your money as going to corporate welfare or police or road maintenance.

Most sensible thing you have said during this whole debate. I'll go along with that. With 1 out of 5 agreeing with you on this issue according to the poll, how many refugees do you think you will be able to help?

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlapedit: This post of yours made absolutely no sense to me.

Put your money where your mouth is then and invite some to stay with you and your family and on your dime.

Has the government forced you to house refugees in your own home? If not, I don't see how this is in any way comparable to the Crown hosting refugees in its territory. It hasn't evicted citizens to make room for refugees, has it?

We are a democracy and if the majority says send them home then thats the way it should be. The minority, you, don't have the right to force us, the majority, who are opposed to support them to accept them. Giving them housing and medical care when its opposed by the mojority is a great example of the government forcing something on us. They haven't forced anything yet but time will tell.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by FreeSpeaker]

As a Canadian this is what I'm seeing here in the Vancouver region.

We have a polarization of cultures. The Persians are in one area, the East Indians in another, the Chinese have taken over a large city, and we have a Little Italy, etc.

Now, we have let in ALOT of people who are antagonistic amongst themselves. Are we going to see them live side by side? Or is the polarization just going to continue on? We already have those who have brought their 'honour killings' over here regardless of our laws.

I am afraid for our country for the future. A person who has lived their entire life in a war-torn country isn't necessarily going to be peaceful here. What's stopping the Tamils and the Sri Lankans from bringing their strife here? Right now, it's a matter of numbers. The more of each culture we bring in, the greater the likelihood of there being clashes because of what's happening in the 'homeland'.

I'm convinced that's why we have such a big gang problem. The gangs are made of specific cultures and tend to go after each other. The drugs and organized crime are a side reason for their existence.

Originally posted by juniperberry
I'm convinced that's why we have such a big gang problem. The gangs are made of specific cultures and tend to go after each other. The drugs and organized crime are a side reason for their existence.

And you would be right. The once mighty biker gangs are now small fish in a big pond full of race gangs. The asian and african gangs have taken over my city pushing the bikers into irrelevance.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


This is not a democracy. It is a constitutional monarchy and majority does not rule. You may have noticed this when the current prime minister was elected with a minority government. Policy has always beaten out populism in Canada, and it will continue to do so, as it ought to.

As I said above, these refugees are not bypassing the immigration laws. Refugee claims are a part of immigration law in this country, and they are being processed by the system.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
This is not a democracy. It is a constitutional monarchy and majority does not rule. You may have noticed this when the current prime minister was elected with a minority government. Policy has always beaten out populism in Canada, and it will continue to do so, as it ought to.

Boy you really need to get your facts straight.

A federation consisting of ten provinces and three territories, Canada is governed as a parliamentary democracy and a constitutional monarchy with Queen Elizabeth II as its head of state.

Canada has strong democratic traditions upheld through a parliamentary government within the construct of constitutional monarchy, the monarchy of Canada being the foundation of the executive, legislative, and judicial branches and its authority stemming from the Canadian populace

Source

Not a democracy.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlapAs I said above, these refugees are not bypassing the immigration laws. Refugee claims are a part of immigration law in this country, and they are being processed by the system.

Dream up and believe whatever gobblygook you want. They showed up here illegally and bypassed our immiragtion laws. One applies for refugee status before coming to Canada. Its really that simple whether you like it or not.