The Amazing DNA molecule

I remember awhile back reading a very engrossing article on the DNA molecule on this fourm. I just wanted to add some information that wasn't in it.

This post won't go into a lot of technical words and jargon that other post did a good job of that. And has some nice diagrams. I won't use any.

Just wanted to share this mind-blowing information that wasn't really brought out in that other thread.

As we know DNA has a chromosome rope that is wrapped around itself. In fact it is so densely packed that it was said it would be like trying to pack 24 miles of very fine thread into a tennis ball, but in such a neat an organized way it is accessible. That right there is mind-blowing.

Anyway this rope if looked at more closely is made up of a ladder like a spiral staircase. On that staircase their are rungs.

What are the rungs?

In the 19th century Samuel Morse invented Morse code. It had two letters basically: a dash, and a dot. With this dash and dot they could make an endless amount of words to transmit via telegraph.

On the DNA there are four letters: A, T, G, and C. These letters form together to create words called codons.

Codons are in turn ordered or arranged in "stories" called genes. Each gene contains about 27,000 letters.

The genes and the stretches in between them are complied into chapters, - individual chromosomes, and these form a complete "book."

Is there really a written language that the DNA is made up of?

Genome-The Autobiography of a Species in 23 Chapters, by Matt Ridley, 1999 p 925,9 states:

The idea of the genome as a book is not, strictly speaking, even a metaphor. It is literally true. A book is a piece of digital information...So is a genome...The genome is a very clever book, because in the right conditions it can both photocopy itself and read itself.

How big a book would all of these letters arranged in order fill? It has been said that the human genome is made up of about three billion base pairs, or rungs on the DNA ladder.

That would mean that if you filled a set of encyclopedias with the information stored in the human genome it would fill 248 thousand-page long encyclopedias.

If I were to try and type that out it would take me 80 years working 10 hours a day without a break.

Now after I typed out that 248 volume encyclopedia how would I fit it into the human cell? Our means of storage is quite bulky to do that.

Here is an awesome fact:

One gram of DNA, which when dry would occupy a volume of approximately one cubic centimeter, can store as much information as approximatively one trillion CDs.

-Scientific American Computing with DNA August 1998 p. 61

No a days we use DVDs, so probably divide that 1,000,000,000,000 by 4 and you get 250 billion DVDs.

Talk about the ultimate storage device!

In fact DNA information is so dense that a single teaspoonful could carry the instructions for building 350 times the number of people alive today.

My time is limited, but this barely scratches the surface of the complexities of the great wonder of the DNA, it's ability to self replicate, to fix errors, read and copy itself.

The question is this:
Do you believe that highly complex, highly reliable machinery can come about by chance? Without solid proof, would not such a belief amount to blind faith?

I am going to blindly type now the rest of the character limit. Imagine me doing this now for 243 volumes of information and forming a book with no flaws:

as;ldfkjwlej ljf lsdkjfiejfoijwe foij fijweofijweofji23u803 adsjflka sjflkjwofij803fj209r3uj23ffj02jfijfsladkjl;avnzxmnvl;asv ;alskjdfl;kasjdf290r3j209fj 039fjdsfjalsdkfjl;vkvnsldfjlk2jf029f3j209rj323j5r23rjljfl;skajdfl;kajvl;asnvlksjdfijfdsfjlkjf09jf0jfjwlfijwoefijwoefjiwfijsldkjf lsdkjf lsdkfj sdlkfj sldkfj sldkjf lskdjf owiejfoijeoiw rj12o5j3i12oj43i2 o3ifjasdlkfjavpadisjfF@#RJ@#RJKFDEJASKFJDSF jkdfjsldk fsdkfj2l3rkj2l3ri290f8jdf0iadjsf kw2 r2lkrj32lk3jrlkjflksadjf0s8d-fj-ad8sf jf 2lkrj2l3krj 2lk3

Thank you for making this fascinating post. The topic of DNA never ceases to amaze me. It's like seeing proof of an actual miracle. I know the world view based on Atheism, and a Universe that operates totally in the material realm is currently in fashion, but there is just NO WAY I can force myself to believe that the DNA molecule "created" itself out of nothing. Not in a million Universes. Try throwing a bunch of nuts and bolts in a box, shake them up, and wait a few billion years. Ask yourself if there's ANY CHANCE that when you open it, it will have changed into anything greater than the sum of it's parts.

I still have so many unanswered questions about how science can explain DNA's:

1. Ability to organize so much information without an even greater set of instructions. Where did the instructions come from? Where are the self-assembly instructions stored? How are they accessed? What starts the correct order of events? How does the DNA know when it has completed it's task?

2. When you get down to the smallest parts of it, what is the medium that the molecular pieces are suspended in? Water? So, molecules of DNA are floating in molecules of water? That doesn't visually make sense.

3. When DNA replicates, what are all the component pieces using as a method of propulsion? Little fins, or hairs? So along with carrying all that information, each little piece is also a biological motor? The models I've seen of them just look like little solid rocks.

4. How do the components know which direction to go in, to find their mates? How do they know when they are near, or when they've connected properly? Do they have eyes, or some kind of senses? Imagine making even a simple machine capable of performing these functions. Make it a simplistic solid little chunk of matter, THEN reduce it down to near atomic size. How is it even possible that it would work, and work correctly nearly every time, multiplied by billions?

5. What is the IMPETUS, or WILL that sets the DNA strand in motion, or even to have assembled in the first place? It's just a lump of matter, why would it care to do anything at all, or even to exist? WHY does it do anything at all? Do rocks, or minerals that are billions of times larger have any sense of will or purpose to do anything?

It's just basic thoughts like these that have convinced me that the Universe works on some kind of intelligent, purposeful field principal that underlies all things.

S+F!

Excellent thread, I've learned something I didn't know and as you say it's incredible. There's absolutely no way, in my opinion, that we "evolved" or grew into existance from nothing; the human body among other things on this Earth is way, way too perfect.

Look at things like Phi, the Fibonacci sequence and all the other mathematical observation's in nature, too perfect to be a coincidence!

Everything has been created in my opinion and to an almost perfect design, that's evidence right there alluding to the fact that we have a creator.

What a great thread. Thanks for throwing that information out there. I find it fascinating and I'm sure most people do.

Jumping from the complexity of DNA (and any other mechanisms of the body ... or of nature, in general) to evidence for a deity or creator-entity, though, is not a requisite step, to me.

Though we (humanity) can create astoundingly complex systems, we aren't the driving force for the universe (at least we don't think/hope). Do you find it hard to believe that in some amount of time, we won't have the capacity to store information at a similar rate (perhaps, better) than DNA? When we do, does that make us gods?

One would imagine there are systems in our universe that may be far more complex than DNA. And there are systems that are simple. How we judge complexity is a symptom of our innately-manifested world view. Perhaps there is life elsewhere in the universe that would review our ways and systems and roll their eyes with a level of disgust heretofore unseen.

Were there a (as popularly-defined) god, I'd hope his level of ability would surpass what we could figure out in our relatively short existence (200,000-500,000 years [or perhaps 6,000 years ... depending on from where you are coming ]). Because it won't be long (of course, assuming we don't destroy ourselves) before we come pretty close to matching these abilities.

reply to post by Hadrian


Yeah but the point is that we didn't create DNA, no one knows where we actually come from or how we originated. Sure, there's lots of theories but at the end of the day I find it incredibly hard to believe that something as beautifully complex as DNA was created via an accident or through evolution.

Like I mentioned in my post above, check out Fibonacci sequence or the Golden Proportion. I don't for one minute believe that everything around us is simply the natural evolution of a primordial soup or the results of a cosmic chemical equation; it's far, far more complex than that.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
S+F!

Excellent thread, I've learned something I didn't know and as you say it's incredible. There's absolutely no way, in my opinion, that we "evolved" or grew into existance from nothing; the human body among other things on this Earth is way, way too perfect.

Look at things like Phi, the Fibonacci sequence and all the other mathematical observation's in nature, too perfect to be a coincidence!

Everything has been created in my opinion and to an almost perfect design, that's evidence right there alluding to the fact that we have a creator.

Hi DK:

Well, you know the oldie, but goodie, I'm sure, that if complexity, in and of itself, requires a creator, then a creator that creates complexity must be even more complex. And therefore, by the same reasoning, he must also have a creator ... because he's so dang complex. So in this instance, the complexity argument for a deity actually nulls itself.

Of course, the creator argument was only hinted at in the original post and I'm sure the OP doesn't want this to turn into yet another "creator/no-creator" thread.

We can all appreciate the complexity of nature regardless of how it came to be.

[edit on Aug 14, 2010 by Hadrian]

[edit on Aug 14, 2010 by Hadrian]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
S+F!

Excellent thread, I've learned something I didn't know and as you say it's incredible. There's absolutely no way, in my opinion, that we "evolved" or grew into existance from nothing; the human body among other things on this Earth is way, way too perfect.

Look at things like Phi, the Fibonacci sequence and all the other mathematical observation's in nature, too perfect to be a coincidence!

Everything has been created in my opinion and to an almost perfect design, that's evidence right there alluding to the fact that we have a creator.

Sorry, but your "opinion" is not evidence of anything, except that you have an opinion.
And for the other person who had trouble with the notion of the DNA floating in water, it doesn't. The DNA is part of the cell nucleus, and is in a salty cytoplasm, which is a liquid containing ions and other soluble macromolecules. There are also insoluble elements of the cytoplasm including organelles and the cytoskeleton, which gives the cytoplasm a gel like appearance and consistency.
And as for the perfection of Phi, it is no more perfect than Pi. They are both irrational constants. They can not be written using decimal notation. They are mathematical constructs that describe a ratio of one thing to another. They are no more perfect than one-half, which always and perfectly decribes the ratio of the parts of a bisected line segment to the whole.
I always love it when the fundie creationists try to bootstrap their incomplete or wrong understanding of a scientific concept into some sort of evidence for a creator. Stone age man didn't understand orbital mechanics so he invented angels to shove the planets and stars around in their orbits. And before the force of gravity was understood as existing, men thought that a rock would fall because it wanted to be near other rocks and the gods (plural
) had invested it with an animus that would allow it to seek its granitely brethren.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by 4nsicphd]

reply to post by Hadrian


Yeah no worries man, I wasn't intending to argue with you or derail an interesting thread and I understand completely where your coming from; if we have a creator then who is the creators creator?

It's a bit like the space argument; as human beings we have come to learn that everything has a start, a middle and an end. Well we are constantly told that space goes on forever; this defies our human logic as everything must come to an end.

So assuming space does have a start and and an end well what comes after that?

Another interesting theory which I've recently read (although not exactly on topic but similiar) is that we do not know when we are dreaming so therefore by that logic how do we know that when we are not dreaming aka awake that in fact we are simply dreaming giving us the illusion of reality?

Maybe when we dream we are truly "alive" and when we think we are awake we are simply dreaming??? Now that's a thought for you!

reply to post by Calender


One of the most interesting threads that I've read on ATS. I wish I had more knowledge in this area to evoke discussion, sadly though I don't

I look forward to chapter 2.

reply to post by 4nsicphd


Hold up a minute there mate, I never said that my opinion was fact - that's why I specifically stated it was my "opinion"!

I also never mentioned anything about angels moving rocks or likewise.

The human body is an almost perfect machine, if you would like to argue how it was created by the big bang or from a primordial soup then be my guest I'd be very interested in listening to your argument!

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by 4nsicphd

 

The human body is an almost perfect machine, if you would like to argue how it was created by the big bang or from a primordial soup then be my guest I'd be very interested in listening to your argument!

Well, it's pretty good, sure, but perfect? How's about scoliosis, sickle-cell anemia, the problem with vestigial organs (like the appendix), genetic defects, stillborn babies, Elephantiasis, innate psychological disorders, and this doesn't include the myriad problems that arise from external effectors (like cancer; sleep disorders; vitamin deficiencies; innumerable diseases; back pain; proclivities to violence, alcoholism or other genetically-influenced/environmental conditions), etc.

[edit on Aug 14, 2010 by Hadrian]

reply to post by Hadrian


Okay, I'll accept that the term perfect is a little bit of an overstatement but as far as I'm aware there isn't anything truly perfect in this world.

I personally wouldn't take into account external factors such as smoking, drinking, drugs etc as these are all choices people make that negatively affect their health.

Perfect maybe too strong of a word but still the fact remains that the human body is an absolutely incredible feat of engineering that works ten times more effectively than any machine out there in the world and I'm sticking to the fact that such an effective and incredibly clever design simply could not have been created by accident or evolution.

The rib cage? It protects the internal organs namely the heart and the lungs. The brain? Is protected by something called the blood barrier that regulates what's absorbed or not. The stomach? contains hydrochloric acid that breaks down our food. I could go on and on, seems too "perfect" to be an accident.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by 4nsicphd

 

Hold up a minute there mate, I never said that my opinion was fact - that's why I specifically stated it was my "opinion"!

I also never mentioned anything about angels moving rocks or likewise.

The human body is an almost perfect machine, if you would like to argue how it was created by the big bang or from a primordial soup then be my guest I'd be very interested in listening to your argument!

For that argument, first get at least a Master's Degree in Biology or Organic Chemistry. And noone ever argues that "
the human body" was created by the big bang or primordial soup. The big bang resulted in the components (elements) that comprise the "soup" from which proto life emerged.
As for the perfection of the human "machine, daily I do death investigations of the causes of failure of that "machine." Let's see, a consciousness inclined to murder and mayhem, cellular mechanisms that run amuck (cancer), connections (joints) constantly in need of structural repair, faulty plumbing (cardio vascular),really screwed up fuel systems (diabetes, obesity, hypercholesteremia,ulcers) inability to adapt to the environment in which it was placed (Hypo- and hyperthermia, melanoma, drowning.) And no availability of an extended service contract, even at extra cost.
I think perhaps you've spent too much time at Noah’s Ark Zoo Farm in North Somerset, an altogether unscientific haven for wackaloon creationists.
And as an altogether irrelevant aside, I grew up about 8 miles from Manchester, Kentucky, a small town in far Southeastern Kentucky populated originally by immigrant coal miners from the South of England and Wales.

Originally posted by Hadrian


Well, you know the oldie, but goodie, I'm sure, that if complexity, in and of itself, requires a creator, then a creator that creates complexity must be even more complex. And therefore, by the same reasoning, he must also have a creator ... because he's so dang complex. So in this instance, the complexity argument for a deity actually nulls itself

Although I'm very much on the fence with this broader argument, i have to disagree that this particular argument nulls itself. I agree that it leads to a kind of logical paradox but many of the things in the OP would be equally illogical if we didn't have the science to prove that they were true. There's really nothing to say that the complexity couldn't go on to infinity. I know that we have to assign human logic to insanely complex topics but there's every possibility that our tiny minds are totally inadequate to explain these things, so i have to be wary of statements like arguments null themselves just because they don't make sense to us.

reply to post by 4nsicphd


Firstly you haven't really answered my question and secondly there's no need to resort to veiled insults, I haven't insulted you or your education, I'm qualified in my own subject area far greater than you are thank you very much.

Your displaying a pretty much closed mind in my opinion and being bound by what you think you have been "taught" is the truth. Could you explain how the primordial soup created the blood barrier?

I wouldn't say anyone was created to "murder and cause mayhem" apart from a very small minority, Cancer isn't a fault that we have designed as far as I know and cardio vascular problems are largely the result of bad diets, smoking and lack of physical exercise.

As I've already mentioned above, there isn't anything truly perfect in this world and as such the human body will be susceptible to certain problems but it's the most highly sophisticated machine I've ever seen.

Like I said before if you could explain to me exactly how the human body has become so effective at what is doe's through emerging from a "soup" then I'll be happy to listen.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Your displaying a pretty much closed mind in my opinion and being bound by what you think you have been "taught" is the truth. Could you explain how the primordial soup created the blood barrier?

You make it sound like evolution is about complex lifeforms suddenly emerging all complete out of the primordial soup, or even woops! a human lung just popped out!

Things you need to do before posting again in this thread:

1) Read up on what the so-called "primordial soup" is actually all about

2) Read up on what evolution is actually all about (from a credible source, not some religions "interpretation")

It is the height of ignorance to dismiss a topic you know absolutely nothing about. You, good sir, no absolutely nothing of the scientific concepts that you dismiss so easily.


[edit on 14-8-2010 by john_bmth]

[edit on 14-8-2010 by john_bmth]

And now for something different: here is how human DNA is represented by sacred geometries of religions:
smphillips.8m.com...
smphillips.8m.com...
smphillips.8m.com...
Now I know that notion is scientific blasphemy. But study the amazing correlations established in these research articles and you will have to conclude that they are inexplicable in conventional terms in a universe devoid of God.

reply to post by john_bmth


Haha, I love this site!

I'll have to show you up aswell, firstly I haven't mentioned anything about religion so I'm not so sure where you get that impression from.

Secondly, I'll read about what "I don't know anything about" when you learn how to spell

P.S. If you could answer the question how the blood barrier was developed in human beings through evolution or how ever you believe human beings came into existence in this world then I'd be grateful?

[edit on 14/8/10 by Death_Kron]

reply to post by Death_Kron

Well, I'm not even familiar with the concept of the "blood barrier," however it certainly sounds like many similar mechanisms that evolve with multiple purposes including selective passage (like cell walls, nuclear membranes, skin, eyelids/brows/lashes, nose hairs, etc.).

Originally posted by Hadrian
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

Well, I'm not even familiar with the concept of the "blood barrier," however it certainly sounds like many similar mechanisms that evolve with multiple purposes including selective passage (like cell walls, nuclear membranes, skin, eyelids/brows/lashes, nose hairs, etc.).

Maybe so, it's entirely possible that the human body as it is today has evolved to become as efficient as it is however I find that unlikely but that's only my personal opinion.

The human body seems to do everything so well it's very hard to assume that we have simply "evolved" to our current capacity, personally I'd tend to believe that we have been created but each to their own eh? ;-)

I'll listen to either side of the argument but some members don't seem able to debate the matter without resorting to personal insults regarding education or intelligence.