Over 1 Billion Muslims and Growing

Originally posted by dlbrandt
I know I haven't learned how to pull in a quote and then and my stuff and make it easily readable. Seems like it turns out different every time.

LOL

No you don't need a church or priest or pastor. The reason you would want to go to church is to find other christians to get to know and trust. Also if you attend a church there are opportunities to serve God there that you wouldn't have if you didn't attend. But you can and should also serve God outside of the church building.

Cheers for sharing your explanations.

There is still no salvation in Islam, or the message of Allah or Mohammed.

This has been proven by the earlier posts. We can have long debates about what a REAL Christian is, about the nature of sin but that will not change who Jesus IS and what he did for us. This is the end of the age and there are many false people in Christianity today, which was predicted to happen even by Jesus Christ and in the early Church. An apostacy is happening now, which will get worse and worse, so "modern" day Christians can be more diverse and hard to define today because of the myraid of FALSE doctrines and teachings in so many Churchs.

But again. that said the Gospel is the truth, as the witness of the life of Jesus Christ who came in the flesh born of a virgin, was the messiah, died for our sins, defeated death and will return again. This is the TRUE plan for salvation of man. This is God saving us from eternal seperation from him. And this is probably why the message of Christianity is so often confused, and is so often under extreme attack, because it is the real deal truth and therefore the enemy of the world and the ruler of this world the evil one.
Jesus himself said that the world cannot receive the truth, the spirit of truth because the world does not know Jesus and rejected him completely. The world wishes that Jesus had never come, because he not only saves mankind but condemns those who dont repent, recognise him as the true heir to all creation and follow him, because it is written that men did not understand the light because they were in darkness, but that they still remained in darkness even after they had the light, Jesus. They chose evil.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
There is still no salvation in Islam, or the message of Allah or Mohammed.

There is Salvation in Islam. Anyone who worships G-d without associating idols ( materialism, blind patriotism, nepotism etc) with him, does righteous deeds [ i.e charity ], forgives others, and teaches love and respect, will be free at one point or another........



----River

[edit on 4-7-2004 by River Euphrates]

I would like to offer an apology for some of my posts on this topic.

I still believe that jesus christ is the way the truth and the life, and that he alone is the messiah, who came in the flesh..died on the cross in the flesh and defeated death being resurected to life.

I am however offering an apology to all muslims for any comments I have made that have offended them personally. This is a very hard topic to debate, and when it gets down to the basics the answers are very simple.

I would like to add that although I have critizied Islam and Mohammed I do NOT hate Muslims. I respect them and often Muslims live more righteous lives than many professed Christians. A point in case is alcohol, Mulsims do not drink and are sober their entire lives.

That said when the bible and the koran are put down together, there are many many extreme differences, but the truth is very simple and clear, Jesus died for our sin and if you accept that and follow him in faith love and hope, you can enter into the Lords rest.

edit

[edit on 26-7-2004 by IXRAZORXI321]

Wow I didn't realize so much of the earths population still believe in mythology. I guess I must be the cream of the crop to be above all that. I don't know whether to laugh or cry that so many humans are so far behind.

Personally, I just kind of sigh....

Okay, I'm having difficulty with a "religion" (all Muslims) whose 99.9% populus are unable or unwilling to corral its 0.1% Islamo-facists. It seems that Muslims who are capable of policing, or killing, join-up with the terrorists and, the rest remain "moderates." At this rate the moderate Muslim will become extinct as a sham. This is an Islamic problem that needs to be openly resolved by Muslims. DO NOT sit idling by and let the free world do it for you; or, A Billion Will Be Unserved!

Originally posted by teachum
... It seems that Muslims who are capable of policing, or killing, join-up with the terrorists and, the rest remain "moderates." At this rate the moderate Muslim will become extinct as a sham. This is an Islamic problem that needs to be openly resolved by Muslims..

I believe in this point stongly.If the Muslims dont help themselves no one can do it for them.It is their problem and it is they alone who must deal with it .The so called "moderates" claim that Islam doesn't preach violence yet they do nothing to curb these organisations and spreading prosperity among its people.
Islamic nations control more than half of the worlds known oil resources yet their citizens engage in violence and terrorism against Christian nations.

If the current trend is anything to go by the rest of the world will lose patience with these muslim nations and may have to resort to more harsher steps to curtail their spread( some thing like forced detention as it was done to the Japanese during WW2 ).It is upto the muslim leaders and sipitual heads to take strict measures to curtail any jihad elements in their community as their future depends upon it.
Their may be a time when their is yet another crusade against the muslim world if present trends continue!!

[ I apologize if my veiws are too extreme but this is how i feel ]

"Religion is poison." -Chairman Mao

"Religion in government is deadly." -Me

There is a reason the founding fathers of the U.S. made the first amendment of the Constitution one banning the making of any laws purely out of respect to any religious establishment. It is counter to the objective of securing the inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In other words, it leads to the oppression of anyone who doesn't share the ruling religion's morality. It is counter to everything the U.S. stands for. Freedom. Freedom to succeed or fail at your own discretion as long as you aren't harming anyone else in your actions.

We have seen the effects of religious fundamentalism in government in countries like Afghanistan.

Fundamentalism is saying, "I have a special relationship with God. Above other peoples. And therefore, the things I say and do are right because I believe God wants me to say and do them." And the next step is to despise others. And the next step is to hate. And the next step is to begin seeing others as subhuman, who's lives have no value.

Thoughts of this nature lead to contradictions with every religion. Every religion espouses the values of charity, good will, forgiveness... love. I can't comprehend the type of convoluted logic which then leads us into a situation where more than 30,000 people have died to date.

We need to change basic human nature to survive the next few centuries. We need to focus on real problems such as poverty, starvation, oppression and ignorance. If we started spending more money on the Peace Corps than the Marine Corps, there would be no war. Everyone would have everything they needed to live a safe and healthy life.

Until you start attacking the roots of these problems, you will never end war. You will simply prolong and exacerbate the situation.

The one thing that nobody has mentioned here is the refugee situation.

Of course Islam is growing in the West. Look at the number of asylum seekers that have fled despotic or failing Islamic governments.
We can see this fact borne out by the two recent major contributing countries to Muslim immigration, which were Iraq and Afghanistan - over 1 million Iraqis fled Saddam Hussien's regime.

As long as the Middle East is a place of terror and torture, people will naturally try and flee to places of safety.

There are many who are convinced that Islam is the enemy in the war on terrorism. But is it really?.. To say that you would condem and blame over one BILLION people who subcribe to a faith that happens to be shared by radical terrorists.

The problem is that most people (at least in the US) are NEVER exposed to an "average" muslim. The ONLY thing they know of Islam is that these are the crazies shouting "Death to America" and flying planes into buildings, strapping bombs on themselves, training their kids to shoot Uzis instead of being in school, etc.

This is NOT the average muslim, but a minority of extremists. I have the luxury of understanding as I lived in Saudi Arabia for a few years. My fellow Americans do NOT. To see the news here, it's easy to see why most Americans feel this way. The ONLY time you see Isalm on the news or anywhere else, is when it's being related to terrorists.

Perception is reality though, for many....and I fear a rising anger and distrust in the US for anything remotely related to Islam due to this ignorance...akin to the perception of Jews in the early days of Nazism in Germany. We often think that something like that can never happen again. Sadly, we seem to have blinders on at the moment, the blinders of vengeance, and more beheadings, and terror act attempts in the US, will eventually lead to a repeat of the Holocaust perhaps, but the blood this time will be on our hands as well.

The Islamic community in the US needs to take a firmer stance in condemning such acts.....loudly, and publicly, and right NOW, lest their silence be taken as approval of such acts, and they, like the Jews, will find themselves persecuted like no other....and all out of ignorance.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
Some would argue that Christian fundamentalism is as dangerous, if not more dangerous than Islamic extremism, especially since Christian fundamentalists control the largest armed forces in the world...

G.W. didn't nuke out Bagdad and he didn't drop one on that muslim pilgrimage where millions converge on a meteor and walk circles
around it. However, dollars to donuts that if the Wahabbis had nukes ...
Televiv would be gone as well as NYC, DC, and any other city they
wanted to destroy.

I see far too much ignorance aboput Muslims from Americans than any other national group. Maybe this is because if their geographical location, their history of looking inward and not outward. The simplistic black & white view of the world, in idioms akin to the white man and Indians. It's this dangerous outlook combined with a powerful government and completely wacky US media that completely hinders the reality of the Muslim world, and issues.

Let's take a look at if half of these comments deserve to be applied to Muslims. Someone earlier mentoined Kashmir, how Muslims were massacring Hindus. What a load of friggin crap if you believe that is all that is happening there, and shows an utter ignorance of the history of that region. First of all, Kashmir, under the UN charter has the right to autonomy if the majority of the population desiree it, India won';t allow any such elections to see if so. India marched in their durng the 60s, 70s butchering Muslims for just wanting freedom, rid of persecution under Hindu rule, mass murders, etc. The Kasniri Muslims were a people which were systematically decimated by the Indian army. It;s why Pakistan stepped in. What we are seeing now are the Kashiris fighting back in the way they only can, suicide bombings. Let's not forget that these were people utterly dehumanised under Indian rule, hence the autonomy drive. Mind you, this little scenario came about after British rule in the region, so let;'s not forget who invaded who, amd created many troubles.

This brings me to the Mid-East, another region made up, drawn out by the British and French. Artificial lines that have led to many of the problkems today. Are Muslims wanting to overthrow the world, turn everyone to Is;lam by force and destroy the West? Bull#, #ing bullk#, this is media spun crap to justof the demonisation of the extremeists, and thus taint the very fabric of Muslim identity. If anyone bothered to even read the agendas and goals of extreme groups like Al-Qaeedam you;'d realise their aim is to simpy get the West (read:US) outo of their countries, out of their nayions domestic policies, to stop interfering to the degree that they do in their lands. They don';t want to invade the US, they couldn;'t give a toss how you Americans live your lives, they don;t, it;s simple.

Does anyone realise that Osama bin-Laden said that he wanted the corrupt Saudi governmnt out of power and replaced with a democratic (Islamic-type) system? That allow3ed more rights to Non-Muslims than they have just now under Saudi (Wahhabi) rule? Nah, didn't thikn so. So why are Al-Qaeeda fighting? The most extreeme of the bunch? For nothing but to end US presence, interfeence and dominamce in their countries.


How about Yugoslavia Muslims butchered, massacred, genocide on the M

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
Some would argue that Christian fundamentalism is as dangerous, if not more dangerous than Islamic extremism, especially since Christian fundamentalists control the largest armed forces in the world...

G.W. didn't nuke out Bagdad and he didn't drop one on that muslim pilgrimage where millions converge on a meteor and walk circles
around it. However, dollars to donuts that if the Wahabbis had nukes ...
Televiv would be gone as well as NYC, DC, and any other city they
wanted to destroy.

Actually, you did far worse, ad have done over the years. Which ntion used the atomic bomb? Which nation has invaded the most countries? It doesn't take a nuke to decimate a people, just look at Iraq. If the Wahhabis had nukes would they bomb the west? Not sure, but would I blame them? Nah, cause if it;s war, and if they have equal rights under the notion of national interest, then why not? If the US can threaten other nations, invadse them, why not Iran? Why can't Iran bomb Israel's nuckear plants, just like Israel threatens to do with Iran.

Hypocrisy. Listen, if you start to act hypocrotical on the world arena, don;t worry about why some nations will revolt, they have every roght protecting their way of life as you do. \Exceot, the US seems to protec tteirs long before it;'s threatened.

Originally posted by version
Actually, you did far worse, ad have done over the years. Which ntion used the atomic bomb?

Hello? Japan attacked us. We ended the war by dropping the bomb.
It saved our country, our soldiers and sailors, and the Japanese that
were still alive.

If we hadn't dropped the bomb (which we told them we would do if
they didn't surrender), hundreds of thousands of our soldiers and
sailors would have died. The emporer would have used up every last
Japanese man, woman and child in his quest for global domination.

They started it. We finished it. Dropping the bomb saved lives.
It was the right thing to do. You saying 'it was worse' is totally
off the mark.

There is a thread about this somewhere here at ATS. It has been
discussed in full there.

[edit on 9/27/2004 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by version
If anyone bothered to even read the agendas and goals of extreme groups like Al-Qaeedam you;'d realise their aim is to simpy get the West (read:US) outo of their countries, out of their nayions domestic policies, to stop interfering to the degree that they do in their lands. They don';t want to invade the US, they couldn;'t give a toss how you Americans live your lives, they don;t, it;s simple.

How about Yugoslavia Muslims butchered, massacred, genocide on the M

Islam all is the ideology of mohammed. He said that an angel appeared to him and everyone believed him and it was passed down family to familiy.
But the problem is that the ideology is very aggressive, very direct, very brutal, very hateful and very anti muslim and promtes terrorism.
The reality is now you have the whole middleast insirped by this ideology and it's all in minds of muslims/arabs they have become acustomed to it.
This is why you have terrorist attacks from muslims, this is why you have kidnappings from muslims, ranson's etc. This ideology. this religion is what inspires it all..


Christianity all is the ideology of jesus. The gospel was told to everyone and everyone believed him and it was passed down family to familiy.
But the problem is that the ideology is very patience, very peaceful, very forgiving, very loving and very tolrent and promtes peace,love, and good.
The reality is now you have the whole europeans insirped by this ideology and it's all in minds of christians/europeans they have become acustomed to it. This is why you have people with patience people, low crime, loving people, peaceful from. This ideology, this religion is what inspires it all.


To say Islam is not the cause of islamic terrorism is like saying, Nazi ideology was never to blame for the jewish excutions in the conceration camps.

Solution to terrorism problem? For muslims to change their names from mohammed to jesus. change their koran with the bible and replace their mosques with churchs.

If they don't want this then let them convert to secularism and watch MTV.

They will never do this, the world will eventually fall into war. Nations will fall, so will ideologys.

Originally posted by Thinker
Islam all is the ideology of mohammed. He said that an angel appeared to him and everyone believed him and it was passed down family to familiy.
But the problem is that the ideology is very aggressive, very direct, very brutal, very hateful and very anti muslim and promtes terrorism.

Here is something on WWMD (What Would Muhammed Do)
www.seanet.com...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Thinker
Islam all is the ideology of mohammed. He said that an angel appeared to him and everyone believed him and it was passed down family to familiy.
But the problem is that the ideology is very aggressive, very direct, very brutal, very hateful and very anti muslim and promtes terrorism.

Here is something on WWMD (What Would Muhammed Do)
www.seanet.com...

This is not just interesting history, since the ethical views Muslims hold are still formed largely by what Mohammed did more than 1300 years ago.

I guess he has the same view as me. The problem now is the middleast has oil. To say islam is the cause of terrorism will cause the arab governments to stop selling oil to the western world. So the governments state that islam is not the cause by extremists. But in reality they know it's islam that causes terrorism.

read this forum. Note it is both in persian and english so if you hit a persian patch just skip it.

islam in iran