i cant even speak..after watching this

Originally posted by ToBeContinuous

Originally posted by Reign02
We are not over there just murdering people..... OMG how ignorant some of you are!!!!!!!! Terrorists have been targeting and killing Americans FOR QUITE AWHILE!!!!!!! Yea I dont doubt that we are in Iraq for the wrong reasons as they did not harbor terrorists because Sadaam wouldnt allow them in his country but Sadaam WAS A TYRANT. The people of Iraq are pretty grateful that they no longer have to live under his rule. 98% of the time WE ARE ATTACKED FIRST!!!!! See but you wouldn't know that would you? In this video (if you would have posted the original) you would know that a patrol was coming underfire in that direct area and they dispatch an apache to provide cover and support. Those cameramen were following a bunch of insurgents. In the video there are 3 AK-47s and one RPG that you can see. Now some people argue that its a bi-pod for a camera but who uses a bi-pod for a camera??? maybe a camcorder but not a camera. And what moron would try to use a bi-pod in a warzone?

I dont doubt that the gunner of the apache took it a little too far, but he was under the notion that the van was trying to evac the wounded and to clean the scene of all weapons so it looks like we killed innocents. AND SHAME ON HIM for driving his kids into a battle!!! Great parenting!!!!

The wars going on right now are to prevent and cut down the number of terrorists in the region. Because they will and are going to kill americans again. You really need to do some research on terrorist plots against america and plots against american citizens in other countries as well as our own. Simply looking at this propaganda is nothing..... You people don't know what is going on over there so please shut up and quit acting like you do.

1. If the people of Iraq are grateful, why is it that 98% of the time you are fired upon first.

2. You said Sadaam didn't allow terrorists in his country... but then you said the war was being fought to cut down the number of terrorists.

3. I support the troops, I just don't support the reasons for being there. The BS that the military is over there defending our freedom, is just that, BS. The only freedom they are defending is the freedom of corporations to plunder the wealth of other countries, defining such wealth as American Interests.

[edit on 18-8-2010 by ToBeContinuous]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you. I had a posting ban for speaking my mind.

1. They are grateful for the most part. And yes we are fired upon first most of the time. There are insurgents in Iraq..........

2. Yes Sadaam didn't allow terrorists in his country, but if you would do some research you would know that once we marched into Baghdad and he fled his position. He called out to all "brothers" to come and fight the infidel Americans. And in turn they came from all over the middle east......

3. Believe what you want to but you are wrong. I wish I could tell you in detail the things we seized and what we found. We are making America safer, whether you believe it or not. Don't hate the military hate who directs it. We are your brothers, your sisters, your moms, and your dads. And if given the chance we would and are dying for YOU everyday.

reply to post by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Though the sanctions were worst than the war or Desert Storm combined, one needs to ask just why did a big part of the world put them under sanctions in the first place, or have major areas of their country designated as No Fly Zones? Also we are not talking old Bush here, but Clinton so even the wild Bush reasons are not valid.

First of all, I don't believe that US hegemony started or ended with George W Bush. The evil afflicting the USA and the foreign policy extenuation of that evil started centuries ago and are only getting worse over time.

You need only look closely at the recent increase in sanctions on Iran to see HOW it's done. The US cajoled, bribed or extorted agreements from other nations to get these sanctions passed.

For example,

U.S. makes concessions to Russia for Iran sanctions
As it sought support for international sanctions on Iran, the Obama administration gave Moscow two concessions: lifting American sanctions against the Russian military complex and agreeing not to ban the sale of Russian anti-aircraft batteries to Tehran.

The administration dropped sanctions on Friday against the Russian state arms export agency and three other Russian entities previously found to have transferred sensitive technology or weapons to Iran. The move came just three days after the United States and Russia agreed on a package of United Nations sanctions against Iran.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
BTW how does one help a nation excape a dictatorship when that dictator has brutal control over them and one of the strongest standing armies backing him up?

It's a difficult question but I wouldn't HELP them by bombing them back into the dark ages, destroying their heritage, infrastructure, importing foreigner companies and foreign workers to rebuild the company whilst leaving Iraqi businesses and workers destitute.

I might keep that as a Plan B in case things like befriending the country and slowly infiltrating with western values didn't work as it apparently has in the USSR and China. You could argue that it's not our place to help them to escape a dictatorship because then you're back to helping "4 billion people which could take 500 years" if you catch my drift.

Originally posted by Reign02

1. They are grateful for the most part. And yes we are fired upon first most of the time. There are insurgents in Iraq..........

i would agree with you their ,cause you are in their part of our world

2. Yes Sadaam didn't allow terrorists in his country, but if you would do some research you would know that once we marched into Baghdad and he fled his position. He called out to all "brothers" to come and fight the infidel Americans. And in turn they came from all over the middle east......

from where ? iran ? irag? how do we know this ?and are you sure its not the iraqi people your fightin?

3. Believe what you want to but you are wrong. I wish I could tell you in detail the things we seized and what we found. We are making America safer, whether you believe it or not. Don't hate the military hate who directs it. We are your brothers, your sisters, your moms, and your dads. And if given the chance we would and are dying for YOU everyday.

how so buy killing all the terriorist ? and why cant you tell us was it WMD? that you seized ? and since when was iraq a threat to america ?

Originally posted by Reign02
1. They are grateful for the most part. And yes we are fired upon first most of the time. There are insurgents in Iraq..........

Of course there're insurgents. George Washington and many great patriots shed their blood for Independence of USA, are they insurgents too? Your presence in Iraq is illegal by UN Charter. You are invading other country. You have to understand that.

Originally posted by Reign02
2. Yes Sadaam didn't allow terrorists in his country, but if you would do some research you would know that once we marched into Baghdad and he fled his position. He called out to all "brothers" to come and fight the infidel Americans. And in turn they came from all over the middle east......

If you don't come there and torn people's home they wouldn't be coming all over the middle east to threat you. Iraq doesn't has WMD to harm US soils. Your government can't prove Iraq and Saddam has connection with Al-Qaeda either. Your former president should have listen to UN Secretary General before but NO.

Originally posted by Reign02
3. Believe what you want to but you are wrong. I wish I could tell you in detail the things we seized and what we found. We are making America safer, whether you believe it or not. Don't hate the military hate who directs it. We are your brothers, your sisters, your moms, and your dads. And if given the chance we would and are dying for YOU everyday.

I believe military are sworn by their oath to protect the innocent civilian. So I'm wrong now? Don't worry about the one who direct you. If he's human he will feel remorse someday.

Look I can understand if the 'insurgents' are firing at you but that's not what we see there on the video. What we see is US soldiers murdered unarmed civilian and children. Your government is trying to hide it from public. Why?


[edit on 21-8-2010 by EasternShadow]

Originally posted by JohnJasper
You could argue that it's not our place to help them to escape a dictatorship because then you're back to helping "4 billion people which could take 500 years" if you catch my drift.

Actually I agree with this. Even though I'm sad at the plight of billions we cannot help all and even if and when we do we tend to screw it up. How do you pick and choose, and Iraq is a good example of removing someone really bad, but ending up being what kept control too. Somalia was a great example of us going in to help and feed millions and the people got pissed off we wanted to stop them fighting each other, so they stopped fighting within themselves and all started to fight us. We left and now they are back in their blissful killing each other once again, but then millions continue to suffer…


Afghanistan wants to enslave their women and invoke harsh Islamic law, so not a good situation at all, but how do you change that? My answer is you don’t. I would like us to throttle back and let the world regroup into whatever, at least then the Americans can’t be blamed for everything, and for once we would truly see if the world is better off or worst off without Americans always involved. It would be an interesting observation.

Ok I'm done trying to explain how things are to you ignorant people! Aww poor them...... blah blah blah whatever.... I just hate that people on here have their minds made up because of one stupid video. Look close at the video! If you would watch the whole video and not the edited one you would know that a convoy was receiving fire from a grid coordinate in the area. well the apache is called in and they are scanning the area and BAM low and behold 6-8 men walking down the street with AK-47s and an RPG. They called to their higher ups and explained what they are seeing, got permission to engage and so they did. Those people were insurgents... BOTTOM LINE. And yea that had 2 cameramen following them... That's their fault.... We engaged because they were going to engage the troops headed to that coordinate. Hints they were hiding around a corner with the RPG sticking out of the wall.....

As for the van that came in the warzone, the insurgents like to keep a couple members back in the background inside buildings and what not so that way when a UAV or a helo engages them they will go to the scene and strip all weapons and insurgents that remain alive... THIS IS A FACT! IT just so happens that this was not the case. Or was it? Nobody will ever know. That man who was driving that van is a moron for driving his kids into a warzone and on top of that trying to put the injured man (insurgent or not) into his van... He brought this upon himself. And EVERY Iraqi knows not to get in the middle of bullets flying. It's common sense. Some would see this guy as a hero but I will tell you what he is..... A FOOL!

This is my last post on this thread so don't post @ me anymore because there is no use trying to argue. I've been banned once and it won't happen again. You people need to take it from the Veterans on this site and not what the media and wikileaks and some disgruntled soldier is saying... We know more than anyone what it is like in Iraq and Afghanistan. You sitting at home in the comforts of your home, enjoying your A/C and TV and internet connection no nothing of war but what is shown as propaganda especially if you are learning it on this site or on wikileaks. Good day and go get some balls and join up or go report the war and then you can comment on how wrong it is........

[edit on 21-8-2010 by Reign02]

reply to post by Reign02


Reign02 - it won't upset me if you never read this reply. As you cannot speak civily to those who disagree with you and have not really added anything of value to the the discussion, I don't think you'll be missed.

Your closing comment...

You people need to take it from the Veterans on this site and not what the media and wikileaks and some disgruntled soldier is saying...

...shows that you only respect the opinions of people who completely agree with you regardless of whether they're veterans or active soldiers, disgruntled or otherwise. Try reading this vet's opinions of the war (in relation to the 9/11 events but try not to get sidetracked.) This is just one example of an alternative opinion to yours and you'll find more if you just spend some time reading on this site.

You dismiss all opinions from anyone who hasn't actively served in Iraq or Afghanistan and everything that could be said in rebuttle to this has been said already. I know because I've followed this thread from the beginning. So no more wasted words on you seems to be the best plan.

reply to post by JohnJasper


Ok this is my LAST reply.....

How have I not added anything of value? You must not have read all the posts on this.... I have first hand experience that less than 1% of all Americans have.... What have you added to this thread besides saying everything that everyone else has on this thread? And yea I can speak and argue civilly but sometimes when ant-war/anti-gov't people get on here they like to swarm and attack. But they say NOTHING.... and what they say means NOTHING.... Why do you ask? Because they have NO idea what they are talking about... These self proclaimed "experts" about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan haven't even been to the region to witness the war... How are you going to make judgment and think you know how things are going downrange when you haven't even been there?

That would be like me trying to tell people about planets and space. I like space but I am no expert, and nor do I claim to know it all just by watching a few videos and reading what some no name imbecile wrote online. Think about what you have added to this thread (nothing) and think what I have added ( a first hand account of both Iraq and Afghanistan) But most of you are too darn stubborn and hardheaded to know that you know nothing. And I know more about what is going on downrange.

Good day and GG! Reign out

reply to post by Nephi1337

The proof that you are seeking is easy to find. Look up the casualty rates for previous wars going back as far as 200 years. You will find that the number of casualties in each of the two most recent conflicts have been quite low by comparison to such conflicts as WWI and WWII. Even if you compare the number killed in the Korean conflict or Vietnam the sheer numbers reported clearly shows a decrease in the casualty rate in modern conflicts.

Here is a good source for some information on this. link

Here is another link

a simple google search will turn of more information in a piece by piece fashion but the two links above represent a nice summary of the data. I hope this helps clear up the issue.

Originally posted by JohnJasper
reply to post by Johannmon

 

That's the beauty of Religion - you can excuse any behavior because God created us that way. Saves having to look too deeply into the social, political and economic history and recognising that actually we (as a society, not personally) choose to be this way.

Truly learned men and women, who were not completely blinded by religious dogma, have shown us the light to salvation but the ones in power at any time have halted any real progress to maintain their control over the populace and their wealth. Enlightenment of the people is the last thing they want.

Thank you for your reply and suggestion of a web site to look at. I must point out that my opinion of the web site was tainted by your erroneous perception of religion and my argument. If you understand the Christian faith as it is portrayed in the Bible God did not create man sinful, nor does He excuse sin in any way. Man remains fully responsible for His actions and debased nature. It is often the argument of the blind that those who see clearly are without sight since what you think you see is actually simply an illusion unto itself.

While I freely admit that my world view is centered around the truths contain in the revelation of scripture, I take issue with anyone who dismisses Christianity without first understanding what it represents. My in kind suggestion to you would be that you seek the truth found in the most unique piece of literature in creation, the Bible. Blessings to you friend.

Really disgusting. If we consider the situation on the soputh border of the USA with mexico and the recent problems an violence. WAR is EVIL. I do not understand how anybody can adore pain, death, humiliation etx..just sick.

terror is wrong,i agree with any anti-terrorist. i think defens is not better than eradicate the soure of hatred ,sincere and concession is needed,power and toughness can not resolve evrything.

Originally posted by Adevoc Satanae

donny
75th ranger signing out

I doubt it.

I just sort of re-stumbled across this thread. I didn't post anything the first time I read through it, because of all the blatant BS flying. But, in reading through it this time, I saw a Ranger under attack from know-it-all know-nothings, and just had to wonder...

Just who in the hell are YOU to question Donny? What are your qualifications to decide if someone has been a Ranger or not? How do you think you can tell?

Just so you'll know, I happen to know a few things about Donny. I don't have to make snap judgments as to his veracity and risk falling into erroneous assumptions as you so blazingly have.

Donny is giving you God's own unvarnished truth, and you think you can challenge that based on a video? Unless you filmed that video, you ain't got a clue. Sitting on your ass in an air conditioned house reading tripe off the internet don't cut it to issue any credibility to you.

I can tell you this: Donny didn't get carpal tunnel syndrome from too many mouse clicks gaining his knowledge. What he knows is raw and real, the good and the bad. From your posts in this thread, I'm convinced that I can't say the same for you.

People like you is why I moved out into the woods to live by myself when I hung up my guns. You haven't lived until you've saved someone's ass and had them turn around and spit at you. You haven't lived until you've put your one and only life on the line so that ingrates can continue surfing the 'net, getting bad intel which they accept as gospel, and proceed to ask you just how many babies you killed to save them the trouble, based on that bad intel.

I'm pretty sure I hate people in general now based on those experiences. For the most part, I wouldn't piss on their heads if their hair was on fire. Those few whom I would still lay it on the line for already know how to find me if they need me. Next one comes, I'm sitting it out. You folks can get off of your asses, shoulder your own rucks, and save your own bacon.

THEN you'll know.


[edit on 2010/8/28 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by Faustian Spirit

Originally posted by wardk28
The war is unjust but this guy put his life on the line and you guys disrespect him. Try walking a mile in his shoes. Most of you would mess your pants if you got dropped into a warzone. You tell him to stand up and protest the illegal war? What have any of you done besides posting on the internet on how evil it is? That's all I hear is the world is run by corporations and the MSM is feeding the sheeple. All talk and no action...

Maybe you should move there to help, then. To help your country to be less ignorant with those remarks, that is. I mean: WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO BE DROPPED OFF IN A WARZONE? No one is obliged to do it, so those who do it must like it or are plain idiotic in nature, as war is. He put his life on the line for internal economical interests, not for freedom and justice. Maybe some revenge for 9/11 too, I'm sure. But NEVER TO FREE SOME OTHER COUNTRY'S PEOPLE as he said he did, don't be naive. I am not bashing him at all, but I can't stand LIES, or, in his case (seems to me) a little bit more brainwash and blind obedience. Do you think for yourselves over there or do you only respond to your master's voice? Pathetic.

You see, I'm curious now. How do you get inside someone else's head and heart, so that you can then TELL THEM what motivates them? Some folks DO think for themselves, and because of those few, the rest of you can afford to accuse them of being "brainwashed".

Must be nice to have stuff you never had to earn.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Adevoc Satanae

donny
75th ranger signing out

I doubt it.

I just sort of re-stumbled across this thread. I didn't post anything the first time I read through it, because of all the blatant BS flying. But, in reading through it this time, I saw a Ranger under attack from know-it-all know-nothings, and just had to wonder...

Just who in the hell are YOU to question Donny? What are your qualifications to decide if someone has been a Ranger or not? How do you think you can tell?

Just so you'll know, I happen to know a few things about Donny. I don't have to make snap judgments as to his veracity and risk falling into erroneous assumptions as you so blazingly have.

Donny is giving you God's own unvarnished truth, and you think you can challenge that based on a video? Unless you filmed that video, you ain't got a clue. Sitting on your ass in an air conditioned house reading tripe off the internet don't cut it to issue any credibility to you.

I can tell you this: Donny didn't get carpal tunnel syndrome from too many mouse clicks gaining his knowledge. What he knows is raw and real, the good and the bad. From your posts in this thread, I'm convinced that I can't say the same for you.

People like you is why I moved out into the woods to live by myself when I hung up my guns. You haven't lived until you've saved someone's ass and had them turn around and spit at you. You haven't lived until you've put your one and only life on the line so that ingrates can continue surfing the 'net, getting bad intel which they accept as gospel, and proceed to ask you just how many babies you killed to save them the trouble, based on that bad intel.

I'm pretty sure I hate people in general now based on those experiences. For the most part, I wouldn't piss on their heads if their hair was on fire. Those few whom I would still lay it on the line for already know how to find me if they need me. Next one comes, I'm sitting it out. You folks can get off of your asses, shoulder your own rucks, and save your own bacon.

THEN you'll know.


[edit on 2010/8/28 by nenothtu]

and who are you ? did we tell you to go and do your duty ? if you were drafted then so be it ! but i am guessing you did not learn one hard lession here did you ?... a true hero are the ones that learn from their mistakes such as the heros in a band of brothers ,how about the winter solders , and all the other solders that have come back a spoke up about the killing of innocent life over their ,i am guessing your one of the few that has not been awaken to how and what the meaning of life is !!!!!!

and maybe its best that you did move to the moutains , thats where you belong

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Faustian Spirit

Originally posted by wardk28
The war is unjust but this guy put his life on the line and you guys disrespect him. Try walking a mile in his shoes. Most of you would mess your pants if you got dropped into a warzone. You tell him to stand up and protest the illegal war? What have any of you done besides posting on the internet on how evil it is? That's all I hear is the world is run by corporations and the MSM is feeding the sheeple. All talk and no action...

Maybe you should move there to help, then. To help your country to be less ignorant with those remarks, that is. I mean: WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO BE DROPPED OFF IN A WARZONE? No one is obliged to do it, so those who do it must like it or are plain idiotic in nature, as war is. He put his life on the line for internal economical interests, not for freedom and justice. Maybe some revenge for 9/11 too, I'm sure. But NEVER TO FREE SOME OTHER COUNTRY'S PEOPLE as he said he did, don't be naive. I am not bashing him at all, but I can't stand LIES, or, in his case (seems to me) a little bit more brainwash and blind obedience. Do you think for yourselves over there or do you only respond to your master's voice? Pathetic.

You see, I'm curious now. How do you get inside someone else's head and heart, so that you can then TELL THEM what motivates them? Some folks DO think for themselves, and because of those few, the rest of you can afford to accuse them of being "brainwashed".

Must be nice to have stuff you never had to earn.

lol you just showed us a good exaple thier ^

second line

Originally posted by Nephi1337

and who are you ? did we tell you to go and do your duty ? if you were drafted then so be it ! but i am guessing you did not learn one hard lession here did you ?... a true hero are the ones that learn from their mistakes such as the heros in a band of brothers ,how about the winter solders , and all the other solders that have come back a spoke up about the killing of innocent life over their ,i am guessing your one of the few that has not been awaken to how and what the meaning of life is !!!!!!

and maybe its best that you did move to the moutains , thats where you belong

No, no one told me to "do my duty". When something is one's "duty", only slackers have to be told to do it.

Do you have to be told to "do your duty"?

Neither was I drafted.

Which "here" do you mean, in connection with your question concerning "hard lessons"?

No. I'm no one's hero, either. Most of the heroes I ever knew are dead now. I guess you could say they learned a "hard lesson", and other folks are alive because of it, myself included. That's what makes a hero. Anyone can put up with a hardship if they have to. Heroes are those who go above and beyond, and often sacrifice because of that.

I can't say about the ones who came back and spoke up about killing "innocent life" over there. If they truly killed innocents, on purpose, they should be tried and hung, not made into heroes by the likes of those who've never heard a shot fired in anger, or put themselves in harms way for the greater good. All I can say about myself in that regard is that I've never killed an innocent, but I can see how it could happen in the fogs of war. designing to kill an innocent is another matter. I can't see how that could happen, and I'll be damned if I'll idolize anyone who has done such.

Every one I ever killed desperately needed it.

BTW, none of my "over theres" was Iraq. I'm probably older than you think.

Why don't you educate me on "the meaning of life"? This I gotta hear. Philosophers have argued that for ages, and haven't come up with a solution yet.

Is it "42"?

Or did you mean the "value" of life instead? I'd be interested to hear what one thinks of as the value of life who has never put his one and only body between the Bad Men and his loved ones. In my book, one who can't muster the stomach to stand up for his own when the stakes are high doesn't quite grasp the value of THEIR lives, only his own.

And he grossly overestimates THAT.

I didn't say "mountains", I said "woods". I've yet to make it back to the mountains, but that's coming. Soon I hope. But you're right about that, that's EXACTLY where I need to be, not out here amongst a bunch of folks who value nothing above themselves, and who are either willing to sacrifice friends and family to save their own precious skins, or are sublimely unaware that evil people do exist, and need to be dealt with.

Like I said, next one comes, YOU can handle it. Maybe you'll grasp those "hard lessons" then.

[edit on 2010/8/28 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by Nephi1337

lol you just showed us a good exaple thier ^

second line

Example of what? That I've come to understand what motivates a man is known much better by himself than by armchair quarterbacks?

Why are you all attacking these soldiers like this? You all shout and whine that the soldiers are the source of all evil, but it's higher up the chain if you want that sort of accountability.

A soldier joins up to do a job, and it's a good one. I have been doing it for half my life and have loved every bit of it. Take it from someone who has been to their fair share of wars, the sort of blatent civillian shootings we're talking about here are simply so out of the ordinary it's stupid. In 20 years colour service I've personally never seen anything of the sort. That includes places like Kosovo, Sierra Leonne, Iraq and Afghanistan. Never.

To put all soldiers under the same banner as the tiny minority who do bad things is just madness.

To say to a soldier "You can just refuse to fight" is bonkers. If you don't fight you die. What is the point of being a soldier if you refuse to fight? By the same token a soldier doesn't pick and choose his wars. The powers that be do that. We are told to go and we go.

How we conduct ourselves there is another matter. I personally take great insult from the insinuation that all soldiers (and by extension myself) commit unlawful killings and just wander around countries killing everyone we see. Sometimes innocent people die, but that is an unfortunate fact of war. We take it seriously and do all we can to avoid it to the extent that we will make a plan more dangerous for ourselves if it means reducing the risk to the locals, but it still happens.

I have lost count of the number of times we have been under serious fire and at great personal risk yet refuse to ustilise the firepower assets at our disposal because the risk to civillians was believed to be unacceptable. We are governed by rules of engagement that are so restrictive that the lives of the soldier are regularly put at risk on the off chance that we might injure a local national, yet are pulled through the grinder when we get one of these decisions wrong - decisions that have to be made in a fraction of a second and can literally mean the difference between living or dying.

I understand that most of you will never see these places. You have us for that. I won't knock you for it. Not everyone can be a hero - If they were who would be left to stand on the pavement and clap?

I will however ask that you remember that there is another perspective to war, not just the edited one you are subjected to and use to make your judgements.