i cant even speak..after watching this

Originally posted by Nephi1337
reply to post by Oozii

 

i agree this is proof in its self of how many lies are going on about the war and how brain washed people are

thank you for your post

with love Nephi

Not even close. Fact is, the people in the helicopter were called in as air support for troops on the ground, and the ones they shot were shooting those ground troops. You cannot have a war in a city without some innocents being killed. That is NOT murder, nor is it some sort of war crime. Lies? Brainwashing? You bet; from all the anti-military people.

All those calling this some sort of crime need to actually talk to the people that have BEEN THERE and that know the real truth. I KNOW such people. Married to one, in fact. Our troops are not going around shooting civilians for fun. That is the simple fact. When terrorists on the ground shoot at us, we can and will shoot back. Blame the terrorists for doing this in areas with innocent people, instead of calling the soldiers "murderers". If terrorists use kids as human shields, and the kids die when other forces fire back, who are you blaming? The terrorists that caused this or the people defending themselves? Reality check, people.

Were it not for these military people you love to demonize, you could not be here posting this stuff.

reply to post by Johannmon

Originally posted by Johannmon
If you understand the Christian faith as it is portrayed in the Bible God did not create man sinful, nor does He excuse sin in any way.
...
While I freely admit that my world view is centered around the truths contain in the revelation of scripture, I take issue with anyone who dismisses Christianity without first understanding what it represents. My in kind suggestion to you would be that you seek the truth found in the most unique piece of literature in creation, the Bible. Blessings to you friend.

It was years of studying the Bible that freed me from religion of any sort. The trick is to study it critically (don't wear your faith goggles) and don't overlook all of the in-your-face Old Testament parts. In their earliest days, the Israelites were practicing imperialism and genocide with God's blessing but if you just overlook those bits, it's a fairly pleasant read.

Likewise, I gained my views on the USA's history of imperialism including the current military conflicts by studying history and current affairs without wearing patriotism goggles. It's apparent that not many of our serving military have that ability but a fair number of students do retain it. This is evidenced by the majority presence of youth in anti-war demonstrations.

Having served 17 years in the USAF, I have no personal experience of serving in a hostile environment. I was always in awe of the soldiers who had to endure battlefield conditions and at the time, I was convinced that they were fighting for truth, justice and freedom. I now know that what they were doing was advancing American imperialism while back home the American imperialists were working hard to exclude most Americans from the spoils of the wars.

The soldiers who are complaining loudest on this thread will one day realise that they've been had, that their colleagues fell in their prime for Big Business and that truth, justice and freedom were the biggest victims of US Hegemony.

Everyone should try this test:

1. Next time a politician states that the war dead will never be forgotten, ask them to name even one person who died the previous month.

2. Visit a disabled vet after about 12 months. See how well looked after they are by the country that they served.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
All those calling this some sort of crime need to actually talk to the people that have BEEN THERE and that know the real truth. I KNOW such people. Married to one, in fact. Our troops are not going around shooting civilians for fun. That is the simple fact.

The simple fact is you HAVE NOT BEEN THERE ALSO. History proof that your troop did going around shooting civilians for fun. Remember My Lai incident in Vietnam war? When troops is commanded by poor leader, lack of discipline CAN occur. And that's something isn't nice.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
When terrorists on the ground shoot at us, we can and will shoot back. Blame the terrorists for doing this in areas with innocent people, instead of calling the soldiers "murderers". If terrorists use kids as human shields, and the kids die when other forces fire back, who are you blaming? The terrorists that caused this or the people defending themselves? Reality check, people.

In other word, blame George Washington, General Grant and others for terrorizing the British Colonies. So how does it sound? Reality check you troops are illegal by UN Charter.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Were it not for these military people you love to demonize, you could not be here posting this stuff.

Wrong. I don't love to demonize these military people. I have full respect for them. My father was a soldier. Never never ever in his entire life to teach us to go around and shoot unarmed people and children because that's a coward way to do.

As for the video and some statements from those who really been there, I will hold my judgement as to conclude what's really happen out there. If the soldiers were under fire, they have the right to kill for survival. This is something I have to agree with even though it's painful to watch those kids died.

[edit on 30-8-2010 by EasternShadow]

didn't watch the video. I can't stand brutality.

All I have to say about the he-says/she-says argument is.....Stupid is as Stupid does.

I wish our troops a safe return. Btw - how's the oil pipeline coming?

Originally posted by TXRabbit
didn't watch the video. I can't stand brutality.

All I have to say about the he-says/she-says argument is.....Stupid is as Stupid does.

I wish our troops a safe return. Btw - how's the oil pipeline coming?

Bingo! There you go, LadyGreenEyes. That what this is all about. Oil. So stop believing it's has anything to do with terrorism. There is no terrorist. There never is. There's only Oil and the money won't goes into your account either. It goes to fund more war and some might goes into George W Bush's pocket while at the same time you as the United States citizen has to pay $US 3 trillion debt to China which will be used to fund me to educate you.

[edit on 30-8-2010 by EasternShadow]

It's OK only a few more billion of us to go.. there was just a few!!


Remember it's OK to murder people if you are a politician.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by mojoharry]

I am sorry that I cannot watch this video as I am not a member of youTube. Is there any other way that I can watch this with out signing in.

[edit on 5-9-2010 by charlie0]

Originally posted by JohnJasper
reply to post by Johannmon

 

Everyone should try this test:

1. Next time a politician states that the war dead will never be forgotten, ask them to name even one person who died the previous month.

2. Visit a disabled vet after about 12 months. See how well looked after they are by the country that they served.

Seems to me that you speak from your experience. I wish Americans bring Bush and his team to justice and try them for crimes they committed. Do you think that Muslims will forget what Bush did to them. Future will tell the story.

reply to post by charlie0


I didn't think it was necessary to be a member of youtube to watch the videos. Even so, just register and watch it. There's no charge.

Originally posted by charlie0
Seems to me that you speak from your experience. I wish Americans bring Bush and his team to justice and try them for crimes they committed. Do you think that Muslims will forget what Bush did to them. Future will tell the story.

I have the good fortune of being neither a disabled vet nor a politician. Unfortunately, there are plenty of disabled vets in the US, UK, Canada and Australia who can attest to the short-lived gratitude of their nation once the headlines have moved on.

2 examples picked at random that just happen to be US vets.
(disabled-world.com) Disabled Veteran Left out in the Cold
(cnn.com) Senators slam plan for wounded vets to use private insurance

Muslims may never fully forgive us nevermind Bush for our criminal wars. However, they'll forgive us even less if we continue to wage this "war on terror."

reply to post by Reign02




OMG your one of the moral bankrupt, the illegal corrupt cartel named usa shouldn't even be in the country FULL STOP

Forget trying to defend any actions of the invasion...
Just imagine if anyone one invaded your home town...killed your friends and family...for what?
Why are the us, british and co, armed forces even in Iraq? WMD? why ARE they still there even...why....!!!!!!!!!!

i would suggest you stop justifying this activity sunshine...and that is just step 1 of the many you need to take, to regain any resemblance of the tag HUMAN ....

This atrocity is not far removed from firing squads and gas chambers of the Nazi regime.

Even if you were the machine gunner who mowed down the lives of the innocent, the ultimate blame lies not in you

WOW...

I have to say that this comment is the most misled statement a person could believe in.

True, the trigger man was told by his 'superiors' to fire. The term you used, known as ULTIMATE, gets pretty complicated, obviously so if you believe in a statement like this one I quoted above. There is an entire college level discourse I could recite for you about how wrong the above comment is, but it would take an entire semester to understand just how wrong it is to place yourself into the position where following someone elses orders, especially of this magnitude, is in of itself a condemnation against yourself in that you've subjected your free will to the command of another's agenda, free and clear of your own, in the eyewitness accounting before the eyes of our Creator.

Contrary to what you humans believe, it is an abomination to judgementally take the life of another of God's children. To be the force that pulls the trigger, makes you the one accountable for the action. It's the ULTIMATE difference between acceptance by our Creator, and being discarded like so much rubbish by our Creator - when final Judgement arrives.

There will be no "But they told me to do it." excuses. You will ne held accountable, and if you do not understand this, when it happens, you won't be able to say you didn't know either.

Tell me, all you people that have taken another human being's life.... HOW DID YOU FEEL AFTER YOU REALIZED YOU HAD TAKEN THE LIFE OF ANOTHER PERSON?

You remember, that sick, twisted, 'OH MY GOD' feeling you felt? That was your conscience telling you that you had violated a law... When you continued to murder and to take human lives, that feeling got number, but that feeling told you something that you chose to ignore... The Truth...

That feeling told you that you were then at that point responsible, and would be held accountable.

those who denied truth, especially the truth within themselves, have denied God, and thus have denied themselves

ALL BECAUSE THEY WERE WEAK ENOUGH TO BELIEVE IN THE LIES ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TOLD THEM.

Yeah, an unsanctioned 'sanctimonious' murder is not the same, as the justified termination of diabolic existance. To justify that you were only defending yourself against people who sought to kill you won't cut it either - you were in thier country, and you came into thier country as a representative of the invader, who swore to them a death threat. all they were doing was to terminate the puppet before that threat became reality

While the servicemen and women who read this might take offense at this, well... I'm sorry to bust the bubble of your ignorance, but the above written statement is Universal Truth... the ULTIMATE of the actions being discussed here.

An you don't have to agree with it or even like it, that isn't pertinant for it to exist as it does - the Truth - because no matter how mislead you might be, the truth always - in the end - prevails. But really now, come on - lets get honest here, you're no dummy, right? I mean, if you really think about it, deep down inside of yourself, you knew the truth behind what I'm saying here...

You chose to ignore it. My only question to you is why would you trade your eternal soul at the whim of another human's agenda?

That's just flat out stupid. YEP, .. I USED THE WORD STUPID.

Originally posted by Heyyo_yoyo

Even if you were the machine gunner who mowed down the lives of the innocent, the ultimate blame lies not in you

WOW...

I have to say that this comment is the most misled statement a person could believe in.

I'd probably have to agree with you here. The person who fires the weapon is the one who made the choice to fire. Any soldier who engages a threat in any environment has to follow internationally agreed rules of engagement. If you shoot an innocent person, you are responsible for the shot. However that doesn't mean that accidents don't happen.

Contrary to what you humans believe, it is an abomination to judgementally take the life of another of God's children. To be the force that pulls the trigger, makes you the one accountable for the action. It's the ULTIMATE difference between acceptance by our Creator, and being discarded like so much rubbish by our Creator - when final Judgement arrives.

Let's not get into the whole religious stand point regarding death. The Bible is full of killings and sacrifices demanded by God (admittedly mostly Old Testiment). Once you start down the religious argument road, rational debate quickly decends into argument.

There will be no "But they told me to do it." excuses. You will ne held accountable, and if you do not understand this, when it happens, you won't be able to say you didn't know either.

A basic lesson every professional soldier has drilled into them pre-deployment.

Tell me, all you people that have taken another human being's life.... HOW DID YOU FEEL AFTER YOU REALIZED YOU HAD TAKEN THE LIFE OF ANOTHER PERSON?

Quite relieved that I was still alive. Until you know the feeling of someone putting all their efforts into trying to take your life you will never know how it feels to remove that threat, even if it means killing them. This isn't blood-lust, it's just a natural human response to survival.

You remember, that sick, twisted, 'OH MY GOD' feeling you felt?

No. Never happened in 20 years of soldiering. Probably because I shot people who were trying to kill my mates.

To justify that you were only defending yourself against people who sought to kill you won't cut it either - you were in thier country, and you came into thier country as a representative of the invader, who swore to them a death threat. all they were doing was to terminate the puppet before that threat became reality

I have been sent to many different places with the Army. I spent 6 years patrolling my home country, with mates being shot by their own countrymen. Any country I have deployed to has been full of people killing each other. Think N Ireland, Kosovo, Sierra Leonne, Iraq, Afghanistan. By the time we left the killing had reduced (with the possible exception of Iraq). Now I'm not saying that I went there with any moral judgements. I went there because I was ordered to and it paid the mortgage. If I fired at anyone it was to stop them killing me or my mates.

Armies have existed since the beginning of time. People will always fight. It's in our nature. I've never been under any moral shadow about my career. I certainly don't do it for Queen and Country or for any great desire to rid the world of bad men. A comedian over here stated that "If you ask an American soldier why they are fighting they'll tell you 'For America, for justice, for Freedom'. Ask a British squaddie the same question and he'll say 'cause I didn't do good at school'." We have a different outlook on things this side of the pond.

I don't particularly agree on the reasons for our involvement in certain conflicts, but it's my job. I don't go to somewhere to shoot up the Taliban, I go because it's my turn. If they shoot at me or mine, then we'll shoot back. Simple as.

Watching this apology video by one of these cowards. The fact that these men weren't courtmarshalled is only PROOF that this happens every day over there.

Blah Blah Blah. I gotta say that the indiscriminate killing of people does not happen as often as most think or feel.
Does it happen? I am sure that it happens, but 99.99999% of the time it does not. There are crappy NCO's and CO's in every branch, and I am sure this is a case of that, magnified to prove a point.

When those that are against the war are asked to show proof that this is common practice, all I every read in retort is "well, this war is illegal" and so on.

Do soldiers celebrate after a battle or conflict? You betcha. There is nothing wrong in that. If you disagree, then I will bet lunch yo have never been involved with a firefight of any kind. Is there remorse on some level that you just took a life? Yes, but for most that comes after the 'fight or flight' levels out. But at the end of the day, soldiers are paid to win and go home at the end of the day, plain and simple. To be pissed that they are happy that they killed the enemy is pretty low IMO. War is hell.

OK, I am new to ATS so perhaps this has been covered to death but some posts are new so I’m going to take a swing at it.

There are many versions of this video on the net both longer and shorter than the one I chose to use as the basis for my analysis. I watched the once I chose (below) basically 3-4 times stopping to go frame by frame at certain points.

Bottom line up front I will have to just say that this appears to be a completely legitimate engagement within the ROE at the time and in no way violated any laws of war.

The crying man in the OP’s video sort of corroborates that the guys were armed when he says he saw weapons in the area but anyways just to help assuage some American Guilt: This kid sounds like he needs a hug to me glad he didn't stay in the Army but I digress...

Here is the video I chose:



Ok here is where I saw and heard about weapons: Understand this is Gun –cam and it’s been copied from a copy of a copy of a copy likely from an original that was saved in a lower resolution to save disk space in the archive in which it is stored.

You are not going to see what the original gunner saw; what they saw was likely very clear to them.

So put into perspective that you are basically going to see dark shadows of featureless weapons not color (no obvious – oh look an AK!) – when scanning look for long darks shapes in the hands of the Baddies and the movement’s they make while carrying them.

Sometimes you can get a good look at the magazine in the well and or a sling swinging which is still just a dark silhouette.

First there is a dismounted element in the AO that reports the men moving along the road with RPG's and AK 47s. I assume he saw them, there is no way to know for sure but no real reason to dispute this. He (Don't really know what level of leader) is probably a squad leader SSG/E-6 at least. I think this is a platoon operating with 2 Apaches and probably an OH58 in support. I have no real way of knowing other than that's common.

**Also, note at this point one of the key things in an insurgency is to blend into the population, carrying firearms openly in Iraq was very common until we took over and still having one is some sort of status symbol for men. However, now the people have been told to carry weapons openly will get you shot without question or comment – no effort to shot at us is required (just having it is enough). That said, one of the common techniques is to carry the weapon around with the butt stock tucked up under the arm with the weapon parallel to your body holding it where the upper receiver and barrel meet over the magazine. It makes it harder to bring to the ready position but less of an iconic “soldier with a weapon at the ready” silhouette. Also, it is common for them to ditch them behind, under cars if they think they are being watched by air. That said seeing a Baddies with one is enough to open up on him. We don’t wait to see what his intent is. **


So again, you have a guy on the ground who is experienced and explaining that he saw armed men and pointed them out to the Air Assets. Who repeatedly made sure that they were talking about the same group by explaining what he was seeing to the ground guy. (Some of them may have ditched them when they realized they were being tracked which is common - like drug dealers throwing the bags when the cops chase them.) Then there is this first sighting...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d045d2e7027a.jpg[/atsimg]

I saw this at 1:44-1:46 in the video and I see a Baddies with an RPG (long cylindrical silhouette with larger conical grenade at business end) facing down the crossroad as the main body of the group passes by.

He is not in the fire but the ready position with the weapon at a 45 degree angle pointing down and facing left off the page down the road they are crossing. That fits protocol for crossing a danger area, He's pulling security for the force as they move.

I can see the Journalists there as well with perhaps camera bags or something over their shoulders. However, what is distracting later the Gunner follows the guy who appears to be in front and looks to not have a weapon. By the ROE they need nothing else to fire them all up.

Now I said Journalists, because I now know what they are – to the Gunner’s and Soldiers they have no idea who they are as they don’t have any (Hey! Yellow jackets or red hats or whatever, that say we are non-baddies or Journalists.) The Gunner and Soldiers have no idea what their intent is even if they see the cameras clearly, it is quite normal for the Baddies’ to film their operations for propaganda later in case they get some good death scenes of Americans on there.

I'm sure you have seen the videos on you-tube or Aljazz.

So back to the action:

Next the gunner panns off the lead guy and goes back to the next rank. Here at 2:06-2:13 you can watch the two guys walk and see them holding the weapons (Ok again silhouettes and long darks shapes to us.) against their sides but they swing (especially at 2:11 the guy to the left has an AK bigger than Stuttgart.) out as they walk and you can make out the shape of the AK, you can see the magazine silhouette and the sling the distinctive AK shape. (Watch the weapons swing as they walk – it’s the tell.)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c61686346437.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/09da09deb55e.jpg[/atsimg]

Even watch as the guy in the middle notices the Air Asset and hides his weapon by facing away and hiding it from the bird.

Later at 2:21 they get the order to fire but the Baddies, know they are busted and congregate near an alley way (Perhaps some of them ditching their weapons as well.) Then between 2:30-2:38 you can see the guy with an RPG peak around the corner and point it at the AH64. (Look at the conical shape of the grenade as he peaks around.)

Later on after the troops arrive Bushmaster 4 says “One of them has an unexploded RPG Grenade wedged under his body. They speculate as to if its fins are out and thus been fired and contemplate calling EOD for removal.

So, one of the dead Baddies had a RPG somewhere and a young American with no real reason to lie finds the evidence. It would take one heck of a conspiracy for the birds to talk to the Soldiers and say “Hey, we may have screwed up talk about evidence on the radio when you get here to help us out”. Also, they would have had to have that conversation on the radio which is monitored at the CP. Implicating some Field Grade Officer would just go with it…..not likely.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7e8f3f1ad786.jpg[/atsimg]

Why is the urgency to fire so high after they see Baddies with the RPG? It is because the RPG can knock out the Apache if the Baddies gets a lucky hit. (Like Somalia and some Baddies will be a hero for taking out 8 million dollar Aircraft.) To much risk of political victory there.

Again, the guy on the ground H26 call sign says at 2:50 or so that they had a guy shooting at them, they don't need this tidbit to engage but it shows that in addition to the weapons he has seen they now are indeed hostile and shooting at the Soldiers on the ground which is the whole point of having the Apache there - to protect them so they can win. Sort of like showing up to a knife fight with a cannon - it ensures victory.

My maximum as a Commander was never send a Soldier to do what a bomb or a bullet can accomplish just as well – we can always get more bombs and bullets don't bleed.

Ok, there is nothing I could garner from the part of the video in which second request to open fire on what some have said is obviously an attempt to take the wounded to a hospital, other than that we see an unmarked van (not an ambulance) moving into an area that the units just engaged hostiles.

They might indeed be good Samaritans. I highly doubt they are Samaritans; however, the Baddies know our operational methods and would be a total idiot to go in there and try to get a guy out when he knows we have an infantry unit with very trained combat medics coming in who will evacuate any wounded to a Military Hospital that is likely way more effective than any local facility at treating trauma.

More likely they are there to get the Baddies (Who are probably members of a n insurgent cell, who will out thier IDs to the IP) so we can't take a prisoner and make him talk. (You know with our evil interrogators.)

That aside, they could just as likely have a truck load of dudes in that van with all manner of weaponry who could do a lot of damage to the dismounted infantry coming into the area to secure it.

It’s the Apache's job to provide over watch and reduce any possible threat to the personnel.

If one were to err I think I would err on the side of making sure they were not a threat first; which they did, they fired them up as was the call from the Commander of the ground troops (not the gunner, not some 18 year old kid the Unit Commander) prior to the infantry getting into the AO. That’s in the Radio traffic before they engage the van. War is hell but that’s why Commanders make that call so they can take the blame should someone disagree.

At 23:14 - I see this which tells me it’s probably a cordon and search OP looking for some Baddies' they need for interrogation. Probably on a CI hit list of some kind.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e8e0ffeb5b0b.jpg[/atsimg]

Hey, guess what crying kid says that too...

Some kids get shot in the engagement that were likely in the van when the Baddies decided they should go get their buddies so they don’t get ousted to the IP (whom they do, and should fear).

This is confirmed by the traumatized young man in the OP’s video.

It was likely a split second bad decision on their part to save their terrorist buddies and completely their fault for taking their kids into the engagement zone - tragic and sad but thier fault.

Baddies are told through TV commercials, leaflets, to the kids in school to avoid areas of shooting – and that we will evacuate and treat any casualties.

Then again another technique is to commit suicide by checkpoint with your kids in the car. To force the American’s to engage at the roadblock by not responding to their requests.

It is a calculated way to gain negative press for Americans and support for their casue. Don’t be naive and think the Baddies won’t sacrifice the kids for the cause…especially female children who are chattel to them.

You can see them putting one of the kids in the Bradley for EVAC:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d630bbece2bd.jpg[/atsimg]

This might even be the guy in the OP's video.

Then later at 30:40 or so Bushmaster 4 calls in that he has small arms fire 300 meters from the Objective at 200 degrees. So the Gunner pans over to that. At 31:07 it black screens and comes back after a second or so. They are looking for the Baddies who just fired.

At 31:13 you can clearly see the two guys with AKs holding them by their sides one dude has an ammo belt on. On him you can actually make out the magazine and handle grip on the weapon. (Again, understand silhouettes and shapes not clear pictures.


A they walk along they realize they are being tailed and the guy in back takes off across the street at a run you can see his weapon swing as he does. (Watch for the movement of how a man runs with a gun.) The guy toward the top of the page tried to hide the weapon between the wall and his body but you can see the silhouette.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/59040f39a2f6.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f2bafd19e90f.jpg[/atsimg]

So, there is my assessment: The Journalists picked the wrong side to cover I guess, they were not marked or known to be in the area. (it clearly would have given away their subjects the Baddies)

That is the risk they take, just like chaplains and other non-combatants in the war zone unarmed they take their chances to practice their profession. The Journalists who cover us do the same thing they run out and try to get film – they will stand up in stupid situations and make dumb ass moves. They are idiots not Soldiers.

The difference is Baddies have been known to specifically target our press guys so they can generate sympathy within the media for the war.

[B][I][U]I see this as totally justified.[/U][/I][/B]

What makes me qualified to opine: (you are free of course to disagre.)

I am certainly not all knowing or without personal bias but I am what one could (and military courts have in the past) consider a qualified and trained observer when it comes to combat engagements and ROE.

I am a career military person serving 24 years, over 15 of which is in special operations and Intelligence – culminating as a field grade officer who has performed numerous 15-6 investigations into the lawfulness of combat actions and circumstances surrounding friendly and enemy combat deaths.

NOTE: In the .ppt I made I called the Baddies - Hajji, its not a bad thing its like calling a Soldier a Joe or a Marine a Jar Head - just a short way to reffer to the them. I have fought them I definately have respect for my enemy.

I'm having a real problem understanding all the protests in these target engagements. I'm hearing a lot of folks talking about firing on civilians.

Now that's just stupid.

Of course we're firing on civilians! Does anyone see any uniforms, anywhere, at any time?

How in hell are you supposed to differentiate between civilians and civilians?

THAT'S why the Geneva Conventions require legitimate soldiers to wear recognizable uniforms.

Sooooo, unless someone on here can come up with another means of identifying these NON-UNIFORMED combatants, then we'll have to do the best we can.

It's a fair guess when you seen weapons that these guys are not on their way to the library.

Our problem is that we haven't been killing them fast enough. And if you're dumb enough to hang around folks with weapons, don't be surprised if you don't see the sunrise or sunset.

Originally posted by Reign02
What you people dont understand is that overthere death comes from anything or anyone. We are on our guard every second we are off base patrolling. I really wish you people would quit spreading LIES and crap!!!!!!!! Go join up for a couple years and GO SEE IT FOR YOURSELF. Because this isn't something that is constantly going on. We are not just murdering people..... Yea innocents do get killed sometimes but ITS WAR.

People won't go and see it for themselves, because most people don't believe in fighting illegal wars, invading sovereign countries without justification and attacking other nations under false pretenses.

I really do feel for people serving their country, when they are truly serving their country IN DEFENSE and not simply following orders when those orders are contrary to that ideal of DEFENDING your country.

I would only ever join my military if my country was under threat of direct attack from another nation. And the proof of that had better be tight, and I mean bulletproof.
I want to see foreign troops lining up ready to invade before I waste my life for my politicians. I want to see the planes taking off and headed our way before I'm willing to pick up a weapon and take a life.

Ultimately, it'll take a lot more than a talking head who calls himself a leader, with a two-digit IQ and miles of propaganda film to convince me to kill another Human.

For God's sake, somebody give me a definition of a "legal" war!

Was the battle at Megiddo a legal war?

The Peloponnesian War? Lamerian War? Any wars that any Europeans fought?

World War One? World War II?

I mean, what in HELL are you guys talking about? War is war is war is war.

It isn't legal or illegal. It's just war.

Where do you people live? What kind of education did you get?

Was it completely missing any form of history?

Originally posted by FarArcherFor God's sake, somebody give me a definition of a "legal" war!

"War is the continuation of policy (politics) by other means." - Karl von Clausewitz

or

"It is clear that war is not a mere act of policy but a true political instrument, a continuation of political activity by other means" - translated version of "On War" from 1976

Politics and diplomacy are not illegal and therefore neither is war; and no sovereign nation needs permission or endorsement from another to start one…

Same with the United Nations – it has no real authority over any sovereign nation. Niether the authority to limit its actions nor to sanction them.

Sure thier support might make things seem more civil - but the people from whom the governements draw thier power did ceed any sovereignty to the body.

Definition of WAR

1: a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations; (2) : a period of such armed conflict; (3) : STATE OF WAR b : the art or science of warfare c (1) obsolete : weapons and equipment for war; (2) archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war

2 a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism; b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end c : VARIANCE, ODDS

The only thing that makes a war illegal is to lose one and therefore be subject to the will of the victor as they declare your cause unjust and start the trials - win and you write the history...

Note to self, if you start a war when you become ruler - don't lose...

reply to post by Nephi1337


well holy freakin potato, if you think thats bad, watch this one www.youtube.com...