Obama backs mosque near ground zero

And in today's news obama (the wimp) - due to the outrage he generated - is backing off of his Friday remarks in favor of building the mosque.

source

*Friday: 'Let me be clear: As a citizen and as President I believe that Muslims have the same right ... to build a place of worship and a community centre on private property in Lower Manhattan'
*Saturday: 'I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there'
*Hamas: Muslims 'have to build everywhere' so they can pray like Christians and Jews

Seems that all the dems trying to get re-elected have made their feelings known to obama ...


Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...

they are all toast but the repubs or whomever gets in, better do the job.

this is a learning moment for america.


back pedal much obo?

Originally posted by fapython
I wonder if America bombed mecca, would they allow the building of churches?.

Should the United States of America aspire to erode our liberties and civil right to that of Saudi Arabia's?

Or should we hold on with everything we are to the principles that make us the United States of America?

Principles only mean something if we stick by them when they are inconvenient.

When the President of the United States explains that the principle of "Freedom of Religion" is a pillar of our founding not ever to be abandoned and right wing pundits spin it as "Obama backs Mosque near ground zero"...the GOP has jumped the shark IMO.

Has he once stated "I think it is a good idea to build the mosque there"?

Nope. The rest is BS.

It's no longer hyperbole to state that the GOP has become a radical political party intent on dismanteling the constitution one amendment at a time.

Equality...Only for the Majority...definitely not homosexuals.
Freedom of Religion...only for Christians
Freedom of Speech...As long as we can define billion dollar corporations as people and we can define any speech refuting right wing rhetoric as a violation of freedom of speech.
Citizenship?...America is no longer the melting pot, we don't care if you were born here, membership is still subject to "approval".

13th Amendment..
14th Amendment...

Portions of the Civil Rights Act...


For a political faction that claims to love this country and it's constitution the conservative movement sure seems eager to dismantle both.

Originally posted by centurion1211
And in today's news obama (the wimp) - due to the outrage he generated - is backing off of his Friday remarks in favor of building the mosque.

I'll be direct Cent..

When did he make any statements "in favor of building the Mosque"?

He made a statement in favor of "Freedom of Religion"...

Are you opposed to Freedom of Religion?

What part of this statement from Friday do you oppose?

He speaks of our founders and our RIGHTS, not whether they "should" or "should not" build a mosque there.

I would ferociously defend the KKKs right to assemble and speak nonsense...not because I don't believe they are ignorant hate-mongers...but because I would never trade "Freedom of Speech" and "Freedom of Assembly" for my personal opinions.

One day we ban the KKK rally's, the next we ban political rallys.

Ditto with telling people who own private property that they can't build a house of worship there....because certain folks don't like the religion.

He speaks of RIGHTS...RIGHTS THAT AMERICA WAS FOUNDED ON.

The rest is just spin as usual and frankly ANTI-AMERICAN as it gets...

In the Virginia Act of Establishing Religion Freedom, Thomas Jefferson wrote that "all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion." The First Amendment of our Constitution established the freedom of religion as the law of the land. And that right has been upheld ever since.

Indeed, over the course of our history, religion has flourished within our borders precisely because Americans have had the right to worship as they choose -- including the right to believe in no religion at all. And it is a testament to the wisdom of our Founders that America remains deeply religious -- a nation where the ability of peoples of different faiths to coexist peacefully and with mutual respect for one another stands in stark contrast to the religious conflict that persists elsewhere around the globe.

Now, that's not to say that religion is without controversy. Recently, attention has been focused on the construction of mosques in certain communities -- particularly New York. Now, we must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of Lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. And the pain and the experience of suffering by those who lost loved ones is just unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. And Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground.

But let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.

We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who led the response to that attack -- from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today. And let us also remember who we're fighting against, and what we're fighting for. Our enemies respect no religious freedom. Al Qaeda's cause is not Islam -- it's a gross distortion of Islam. These are not religious leaders -- they're terrorists who murder innocent men and women and children. In fact, al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion -- and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11.

So that's who we're fighting against. And the reason that we will win this fight is not simply the strength of our arms -- it is the strength of our values. The democracy that we uphold. The freedoms that we cherish. The laws that we apply without regard to race, or religion, or wealth, or status. Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect towards those who are different from us -- and that way of life, that quintessentially American creed, stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today.

voices.washingtonpost.com...


[edit on 16-8-2010 by maybereal11]

reply to post by MrXYZ

You want him to post the full articles, all of them...really??? If a headline generally states someone voted one way or the other, it's generally what's being told in the article itself.

Making a "GOP votes against Wall Street reform" headline just to then type "just kiddin'" in the content doesn't happen all that often unless you're getting info from a random blog instead of news sources.

I'm going to take just a few of these headlines generators and show how misleading they can be. Just a few.

Remember who voted "NO" to economic stimulus and unemployment benefits in the face of a deep recession.

Yes I remember that the R's voted against the proposal to extend unemployment benefits. A quick glance at a headline would make them seem like heartless bastards...

unless you read the entire article. Then you'd find out that the thing they were against was how to pay for these benefits.

The D's wanted to just tack the cost to the existing deficit. In other words, spend money we don't have.

The R's said, either cut some existing program, or spend some of the unspent stimulus money. In other words, sure, we'll extend the unemployment benefits, as long as we find a way to pay for them.

But you'd rather spread the lies that the R's are against the little guy.

Here's another:

Remember Rand Paul, who refused to say that business owners should not have a right to put "Whites Only" signs on the doors of their establishments.

Utter lies. Rand was making a very complex point, one which on the one hand condemned racial discrimination, while balancing that with the right of a businessman to hire or NOT HIRE any one of his choice. It was a very good argument he was making, one that could not be answered yes/no or lend itself to a soundbite.

But you'd rather throw mud and infer that Rand Paul is a racist.

Shallow minds live on soundbites and a diet of headlines. They rarely dig any deeper for the real story, as long as the headline supports their bigotry.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by mishigas]

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by centurion1211
And in today's news obama (the wimp) - due to the outrage he generated - is backing off of his Friday remarks in favor of building the mosque.

I'll be direct Cent..

When did he make any statements "in favor of building the Mosque"?

He made a statement in favor of "Freedom of Religion"...

[edit on 16-8-2010 by maybereal11]

I'll be direct as well.

You're picture deserves to be in the dictionary next to the word "disingenuous" if you are saying that and at the same time understanding that EVERYONE took obama's words Friday to be giving his approval to the mosque.

Obama is (somewhat) clever and his speech writers are also (somewhat) clever - enough to provide obama some "plausible deniabilty" if the Friday speech backfired - which it has.

Too bad you and/or your speech writers don't have the same skill level.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by centurion1211
And in today's news obama (the wimp) - due to the outrage he generated - is backing off of his Friday remarks in favor of building the mosque.

I'll be direct Cent..

When did he make any statements "in favor of building the Mosque"?

He made a statement in favor of "Freedom of Religion"...

[edit on 16-8-2010 by maybereal11]

Obama is (somewhat) clever and his speech writers are also (somewhat) clever - enough to provide obama some "plausible deniabilty"

I'll disregard the insults and attempt to switch the direction to personal attacks.

I provided the exact transcript of what he said.

You are unable to provide any evidence what-so-ever to support your failed claim that he favors building a Mosque there.

Unable to deal with facts, you have decided to unneccesarily attach your own sinister interpretation of his "cleverly worded speech".

Your opinion does not change facts or reality, it is simply your fevered political view, where as with what the POTUS said...there is a transcript....like I provided.

He did not comment on whether he personally thought it was a good idea.

It is his job to "protect" and "uphold" the constitution against just these forms of political whimsey and he did just that.

I fully expect your next post to be further personal attacks, off-topic, or an attempt at derailment....

Originally posted by maybereal11

I fully expect your next post to be further personal attacks, off-topic, or an attempt at derailment....

Don't worry. I won't appropriate your modus operandi.

FYI - telling the truth does not constitute an insult.

Can't make it any clearer than saying again - for you - that obama knew how his words would be taken, and if you read any following comments in the news - such as Crist from Florida - they all took his words as intended.

And if obama's Friday speech was so much in the right, why is he backtracking now?

The Occam's Razor Principle (simplest) response would have to be that the polls said, "oops!".

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by centurion1211
And in today's news obama (the wimp) - due to the outrage he generated - is backing off of his Friday remarks in favor of building the mosque.

I'll be direct Cent..

When did he make any statements "in favor of building the Mosque"?

He made a statement in favor of "Freedom of Religion"...

[edit on 16-8-2010 by maybereal11]

EVERYONE took obama's words Friday to be giving his approval to the mosque.

Lets try logic...not optimistic you are vulnerable to logic, but let's try anyways.

Over the years Judges and courts have unanimously ruled in favor of the KKK's right to free speech and assembly.

Does this mean that those Judges are in favor of the KKK?

One is able to passionately support a constitutional "Right" as the President did, without speaking to the wisdom of it's practice.

His words are right there in the transcript. Nowhere did he say he supports the decision...only the right to make that decision. Freedom of Religion.

With this rhetoric the GOP seems to be pretending not to understand the fundemental precepts of the rights afforded us in the Constitution. Strange bunch and getting stranger by the day.

reply to post by maybereal11



Your choir already believes the nonsense you keep posting (preaching to).

Fortunately, no one else does.

Give it a rest ...

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by maybereal11

I fully expect your next post to be further personal attacks, off-topic, or an attempt at derailment....

Don't worry. I won't appropriate your modus operandi.

Thanks for doing exactly as I expected.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Can't make it any clearer than saying again - for you - that obama knew how his words would be taken, and if you read any following comments in the news - such as Crist from Florida -

News commentary? Christ? Spin and political hackery. Niether change what the President said. I provided that, what you are providing AGAIN is nothing but rhetoric and opinion in contradiction to his actual words that I provided in the transcript.

I'll stick with the literal facts and transcripts rather than your opinion that his speech had some "clever" sinister motive.

Predictable try on your part, but fail.

Polls by the way...? Show me one that speaks to what he said...Pro or Con on Freedom of Religion.

The Fox News Polls were funny. They failed to include it in thier article, but when you look at the ACTUAL POLL..A Majority of both Dems and Reps and Independants all agreed they had the RIGHT TO BUILD there...just like President Obama said.

Regardless of whether you think it is appropriate to build a mosque near ground zero, do you think the Muslim group has the right to build a mosque there, or don’t they have that right?

YES
Dems 63%
GOP 57%
Ind 69%
www.foxnews.com...

Glad to know that some folks still believe in the Constitution.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by centurion1211
reply to post by maybereal11

 

Your choir already believes the nonsense you keep posting (preaching to).

Fortunately, no one else does.

Give it a rest ...

I am just interested how many times you can respond with insults absent logic or facts...

I suspect your well of ignorance if near limitless.

Originally posted by maybereal11

News commentary? Christ? Spin and political hackery. Niether change what the President said. I provided that, what you are providing AGAIN is nothing but rhetoric and opinion in contradiction to his actual words that I provided in the transcript.

But Crist is IN FAVOR of obama's position ...

source

Lately President Barack Obama has found an unlikely ally in Florida Governor Charlie Crist as of late. Crist backed him on the stimulus, his response to the Gulf oil spill, the President’s jobs bill, and now Charlie is behind the President on his comments about a mosque being built near Ground Zero.

So, what's your problem with the "literal facts" I posted on that?

Polls by the way...?

YES
Dems 63%
GOP 57%
Ind 69%
www.foxnews.com...

Glad to know that some folks stillbelieve in the Constitution.

Still spinning, I see.

Of course, most people - including myself - are in favor of freedom of religion. However, most thinking people understand that the issue is more complex that just a straight freedom of religion question.

Here another poll for you that goes to the very heart of the issue - do people favor build a mosque at Ground Zero? BTW, the source is the DailyKos, a well known very liberal organization.

source

Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:46:04 PM PDT

CNN has a new poll revealing that 68% of Americans oppose the "Ground Zero Mosque" -- including 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals, 72% of whites and 58% of non-whites.

... including 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals.

Oh, and research growing a thicker skin if you want to play here ...

[edit on 8/16/2010 by centurion1211]

And this just in.

Senate majority leader Harry Reid (D-NV) has come out against building the mosque at Ground Zero.

source

WASHINGTON — The Senate's top Democrat says a mosque should not be built near the site of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada on Monday became the highest profile Democrat to break with President Barack Obama, who on Friday backed the right for the developers to build a mosque near ground zero.
In a statement, Reid said the first amendment protects freedom of religion and he respects that, but the mosque should be built somewhere else.

I'm not often in favor of what Reid says, but think he got it right this time. Perhaps the tide is finally starting to turn towards the will of the people as they have expressed in the polls. Build a mosque, just not there.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Of course, most people - including myself - are in favor of freedom of religion. However, most thinking people understand that the issue is more complex that just a straight freedom of religion question.

...........

Oh, and research growing a thicker skin if you want to play here ...

[edit on 8/16/2010 by centurion1211]

Not sure what is meant by the thicker skin comment?
I will "play here" at my liesure. If you have personal issue with me perhaps take it up with a Mod?

As far as the rest of your posts...you still don't get it at all.

I am among those that don't think the Mosque near ground zero is a good idea...

My opinion on that matter is not important in the context of "Freedom of Religion".

I would fight for them to have the right to build the Mosque, just like I would fight for the KKK's right to assemble and excercise free speech.

Not because I agree with them, but because thier rights are my rights and they are the rights that my country was built upon.

Is that simple fact incomprehensible for those mired in the partisan fog?

President Obama spoke of thier RIGHTS and our constitution. He did not speak in support of thier decision...only about thier RIGHT to make that decision. It is what he said on Friday, it is what he said this week. He swore an oath to protect and uphold the constitution and that is what he is doing in this regard.

Nothing you have said, polls, opinions, media etc. etc. have changed those pesky truths.

Originally posted by centurion1211
And this just in.

Senate majority leader Harry Reid (D-NV) has come out against building the mosque at Ground Zero.

source

WASHINGTON — The Senate's top Democrat says a mosque should not be built near the site of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada on Monday became the highest profile Democrat to break with President Barack Obama, who on Friday backed the right for the developers to build a mosque near ground zero.
In a statement, Reid said the first amendment protects freedom of religion and he respects that, but the mosque should be built somewhere else.

I'm not often in favor of what Reid says, but think he got it right this time. Perhaps the tide is finally starting to turn towards the will of the people as they have expressed in the polls. Build a mosque, just not there.

What are you talking about? Last I checked, much of what Reid says has directly conflicted with the constitution. And again we have an instance where his opinion is against the constitution.

But who gives a # about the constitution anyways?

[edit on 16-8-2010 by SpectreDC]

Originally posted by SpectreDC

Originally posted by centurion1211
And this just in.

Senate majority leader Harry Reid (D-NV) has come out against building the mosque at Ground Zero.

source

WASHINGTON — The Senate's top Democrat says a mosque should not be built near the site of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada on Monday became the highest profile Democrat to break with President Barack Obama, who on Friday backed the right for the developers to build a mosque near ground zero.
In a statement, Reid said the first amendment protects freedom of religion and he respects that, but the mosque should be built somewhere else.

I'm not often in favor of what Reid says, but think he got it right this time. Perhaps the tide is finally starting to turn towards the will of the people as they have expressed in the polls. Build a mosque, just not there.

What are you talking about? Last I checked, much of what Reid says has directly conflicted with the constitution. And again we have an instance where his opinion is against the constitution.

But who gives a # about the constitution anyways?

[edit on 16-8-2010 by SpectreDC]

Can you use the F-word in posts?

But so many dems supported Reid on questions of constitutionality for healthcare and other democratic agendas, or they had no comment.

But now, on THIS issue, all of the sudden you want to throw Reid under the (constitutional) bus?

OK, time to come clean for all of us. Just WHY is building a mosque SO important that you'll even sacrifice one of your own to see it through?

The fact that all of the sudden a strict interpretation of the constitution matters to you is by itself an "eye opener", but now also trashing Reid over it?

Maybe a bunch of you have more invested in this issue than you've been saying?

Originally posted by maybereal11

I am among those that don't think the Mosque near ground zero is a good idea...

Care to show where you posted that before? Willing to give you a pass on that if you can.

My opinion on that matter is not important in the context of "Freedom of Religion".

I would fight for them to have the right to build the Mosque, just like I would fight for the KKK's right to assemble and excercise free speech.

Not because I agree with them, but because thier rights are my rights and they are the rights that my country was built upon.

Is that simple fact incomprehensible for those mired in the partisan fog?

No, it's as I mentioned in another post. Having a liberal/democrat all of the sudden start posting almost rabidly about upholding a strict constitutional interpretation of "freedom of religion" - but only where this one issue is involved - just doesn't seem either genuine, or the whole story.

President Obama spoke of thier RIGHTS and our constitution. He did not speak in support of thier decision...only about thier RIGHT to make that decision. It is what he said on Friday, it is what he said this week. He swore an oath to protect and uphold the constitution and that is what he is doing in this regard.

And people constantly read "between the lines" in search of the true meaning of statements made by presidents, elected officials and even news pundits like Glen Beck (see other ATS threads). You are obviously choosing to take obama's words literally in an attempt to once again defend obama from criticism, while I and many others see obama's words as a cleverly constructed message of support for the mosque being built near ground zero. Again, NO ONE is saying they can't build a mosque (somewhere else). There's your freedom of religion in action. But if you truly - as you say - do not want the mosque built near ground zero, why not say that and let it go? Why not suggest they just build it elsewhere? No, as fanatical as you've become on this issue, there must be something else involved here (reminder ATS = CT website).

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by maybereal11

I am among those that don't think the Mosque near ground zero is a good idea...

Care to show where you posted that before? Willing to give you a pass on that if you can.

Uhh...you have me confused with someone that cares whether you believe me or not. I could not care less and frankly don't think you are in a position of credibility to give anyone a "pass"...

If you disbelieve me then that is your issue, not mine. If you want to validate your claim, then please attempt to do so, rather than cast aspersions..

Originally posted by centurion1211

My opinion on that matter is not important in the context of "Freedom of Religion".

I would fight for them to have the right to build the Mosque, just like I would fight for the KKK's right to assemble and excercise free speech.

Not because I agree with them, but because thier rights are my rights and they are the rights that my country was built upon.

Is that simple fact incomprehensible for those mired in the partisan fog?

No, it's as I mentioned in another post. Having a liberal/democrat all of the sudden start posting almost rabidly about upholding a strict constitutional interpretation of "freedom of religion" - but only where this one issue is involved - just doesn't seem either genuine, or the whole story.

This is the second time on this page that you have accused posters of having alterior motives for supporting "Freedom of Religion"..

Unfounded aspersions...and a bit of projection? Or just some new smear tactic you are trying out? Are we all now secret terrorist muslims?

Originally posted by centurion1211
And people constantly read "between the lines" in search of the true meaning of statements made by presidents, elected officials and even news pundits like Glen Beck ?

I prefer to begin with what they actually said. I find it to be useful to begin with the facts, but to each his own.

Originally posted by centurion1211No, as fanatical as you've become on this issue, there must be something else involved here (reminder ATS = CT website).

Again with the crazy talk...care to explain what you are accusing posters of? Being gov. operatives? That is exactly what I would expect from you when losing a debate. Keep it up.

I strongly suggest this...stop with the unfounded accusational posts.
The owners of ATS know exactly who I am and if these are the tactics you employ I will ask them to weigh in on your unfounded aspersions and continued baiting.

As far as suddenly being in support of the constitution...Please show me where I have not been. Healthcare? It's constitutional...both Conservative and Liberal law professors and scholars think so with the exception of those that have been retained for newstainment commentary.

2nd Amendment...always supported it.

13th and 14th amendment? Equality etc. etc. I would argue that there are a plethora of constitutional principles and passages that I have consistently supported where you could not say the same.

Honestly you have failed to address any of my points, but rather make aspersions and continually attempt to derail the topic.

You don't interest me any longer, you don't even amuse me.

If you post outright, disproven BS I will respond, but I am not interested in your personal opinions and expect no posts from me in that regard.

Centurion, I'm not even going to answer anything in your reply to me.

I'm not a democrat, but apparently because I support the building of this community center, that happens to have a mosque in it, I'm a democrat in your eyes? Even though I have NEVER voted for a democrat, even though I have rarely if ever supported any one specific democrat, I'm "one of them"?

You're a #ing idiot. Enjoy the ignore list. You're posts aren't worth the negligible bandwidth they take up.

And hey, it isn't an insult if it's the truth. I mean, you said that, right? And I mean, you ARE pretty clearly a #ing idiot.

[edit on 17-8-2010 by SpectreDC]