Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

Originally posted by adjensen
If I may make an observation here, your criticism has thus far been limited to the portrayal of God in the Old Testament. Rather than referring to him as "the biblical god", why don't you refer to him as "the Jewish god"? I know that most (well, all, I think) of the defence and justifications in the thread have been on the part of Christians, but isn't it more accurate to describe him in those terms? David was Jewish, not Christian, after all.

Sure, but Jesus was Jewish also.
And god remains the same for both "old" and "new" testament books....

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
If I may make an observation here, your criticism has thus far been limited to the portrayal of God in the Old Testament. Rather than referring to him as "the biblical god", why don't you refer to him as "the Jewish god"? I know that most (well, all, I think) of the defence and justifications in the thread have been on the part of Christians, but isn't it more accurate to describe him in those terms? David was Jewish, not Christian, after all.

Sure, but Jesus was Jewish also.
And god remains the same for both "old" and "new" testament books....

Of course, but take a look at the article I linked to. Maybe it makes more sense to you, but one thing that I can't help but take away from that is that the thinking of a Jewish person is radically different than you, I or the fundamentalist. If so, since this passage was written by a Jew, our questions are probably not even viewed by them as relevant, and our answers even less so, making the claim that this is "the biblical God" and Christians need to justify it all the more of a stretch.

Again, it would be nice to see the feedback from a Jewish person for your questions about the Jewish God.

Originally posted by adjensen


Of course, but take a look at the article I linked to.

I did. It seems it is simply another long-stretch of a rationalization in order to overlook the cruelty involved in their god killing tens of thousands of people who had nothing to do with David's "crime". It's no different from ...who is it... gorman91(?)... claiming that none of them were innocent.

All living things are limited by natural lifespan. We don't die because of "sin", nor does any other living being.

The biblical god is indeed maniacal since we see exactly the reasons that he kills, the number of people he kills, the acts of barbarianism he instructs, etc. To call the biblical god "just" is dishonest.

That's a statement of observance rather than a statement of fact.

I guess anyone, including God, that basically gives His own blood so that His maniacal little creatures have a shot at freedom is a really crazed lunatic. Riiiight....

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree

That's a statement of observance rather than a statement of fact.

I guess anyone, including God, that basically gives His own blood so that His maniacal little creatures have a shot at freedom is a really crazed lunatic. Riiiight....

So a god that human sacrifices his son (himself) to himself in order to achieve something that could have been done without the violence? That sounds like lunacy to me.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


You think your idea of justice and truth and good is the measuring stick with which this universe operates?

You cannot even draw a perfectly straight line with a sharp pencil and a ruler.

Your version of righteousness is simply you drawing your shadow outline on the beach at low tide.

Lots pf presumption that you can measure how cruel God is, guess it keeps you from introspection.

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

You think your idea of justice and truth and good is the measuring stick with which this universe operates?

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to come out and say this (I don't know, I suppose it's already been said, but not in so many words,) but the real answer of the fundamentalist (and, in a general sense, any Christian,) is not a justification, but this simple "God doesn't answer to you."

No person of faith, or even a sane person who lacks belief, but understands the notion of God, would say that our personal, non-absolute morality is, in any way, binding on God. I do not believe that the stories cited by the OP are properly reflective of the God that I know, so their validity or interpretation is suspect, but if they are true, then that is the nature of God in those circumstances, and that is the end of that.

TD is perfectly welcome to hold his opinion of what these instances say or don't say about the nature of God, but in the end, if there is no God, it doesn't matter, and if there is a God, you'll have to sort out your definition and treatment of him with him, and I rather suspect that "I don't answer to you" is going to be a big part of that.

The brashness of brushing it aside with "I'll happily go to hell, I'm not going to worship a God like that" seems like a noble idea while one is breathing comfortably in their disbelief here on Earth, but I can't imagine the madness that would lead to one honestly saying that if you're standing in front of the creator of all, being called to answer for your actions.

I would, at least, have an alternate defence in my back pocket.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by Gorman91

 

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that.

You see, God the Father is the Judge and He says that you should be put to death. However, in walks Jesus and He says, "Well, hold on Father, they don't know what they're doing, forgive them and I shall pay their debt."

Ugh, heresy. Jesus is God. The Word also says Jesus will judge every man, not the Father. He's just as much the Lord as is the Father, as is the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


You don't understand do you?

It's like trying to explain quantum physics to an accountant.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


ROFL...really? heresy? That's hilarious.

So, when that voice comes from Heaven and says "this is my son in whom I am well pleased" ...well...explain that to me please

and also, when Jesus says "forgive them FATHER for they know not what they do".... explain that too please

Heresy. Funny stuff.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


With your hypothetical exchange between the Father and the Son you portray the Father wanting to do one thing and the Son "talking" Him out of it. The Father and the Son are one. They are in complete agreement, at all times. It's heretical to think/state otherwise. "Heretical" means contrary to what the Word of God declares to be fact/true.

Secondly, you state the "father" will judge mankind. that's completely contrary to what the Word of God declares. It says that Jesus the Son will judge mankind. That's heretical to state/believe as well.

The Bible is clear that God came to Earth and entered humanity as a servant, as an example to us all in His life, for the purpose that was in the heart of God before creation to redeem mankind through the Son for His glory and to demonstrate His infinite love.





[edit on 24-8-2010 by NOTurTypical]

Jesus Christ claimed to be God NUMEROUS times in many varying ways. over 80 times in the gospels. Example:

"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10:31-33

Does "claim to be God" actually mean "you claim you are NOT God."???

reply to post by NOTurTypical

We have no insurance the bible is the correct story, or that all is truth.
The bible, is just a version of the sumerian tablets, look it up and the sumerians were the result of the anunaki, "that is bad" because they posed as gods and made human sacrifice.
They made a fable out of everything.
I would like Jesus to be the one but I do not know that, maybe he is the bad guy, I don't know I don't jump to conclusions, and as long as god is concerned, god is the force that governs the universe, it can't be a pitiful alien , lizard, snake anunaki crap. It is stated in the bible that the bad guy runs the world ? look it up it's in the bible ? they are here on earth running the show ? it's right there in the bible. So the bad guy gets to write books, and movies and so on. He is so bad that he even tricks his self, deluded, gets pleajure out starting wars and writing books. Wake up.

Originally posted by slugger9787
Lots pf presumption that you can measure how cruel God is, guess it keeps you from introspection.

It's quite obvious how cruel the biblical god is and if you didn't get it after the first killing he provides millions more throughout the book. Overlooking these facts causes me to wonder about your own introspection, or lack thereof.

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

We have no insurance the bible is the correct story, or that all is truth.
The bible, is just a version of the sumerian tablets, look it up and the sumerians were the result of the anunaki, "that is bad" because they posed as gods and made human sacrifice.

No, the Bible is not "a version of the sumerian tablets". There is commonality between the Biblical book of Genesis and Sumerian mythology, the rest of the Old Testament bears little resemblance, being the history of the Jewish people's relationship with God, their law, and their early history.

The fundamentalist may point to these early similarities as indication that both sources are independent, and correct, in that their stories are so much alike, while the non fundamentalist would accept that the stories are allegorical or symbolic, and whether one came from the other or not doesn't really matter all that much.

I would like Jesus to be the one but I do not know that, maybe he is the bad guy

I would suggest that if you have the slightest real interest in wanting "Jesus to be the one" that you spend some time reading the Gospel of the New Testament, thinking about what Jesus said and what he did, and asking questions if you have any. Unless you are a Pharisee, it is difficult to read Luke or John and see even the slightest hint that Christ might be "the bad guy."

As I said earlier, if the alternative is that Satan, as portrayed in the Bible, is really God, and all of the things that are attributed to God are really Satan, then God has abandoned us, without recourse, and it doesn't really matter what you believe. In the reality of that vacuum, the whole notion becomes nonsensical.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by adjensen]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to come out and say this (I don't know, I suppose it's already been said, but not in so many words,) ...

This being slugger's

You think your idea of justice and truth and good is the measuring stick with which this universe operates?

I could have sworn... ah yes, back on August 15, 11:24 am, board default time:

God and Satan are not even biological beings, if we accept the thread's premise that the Bible's fact statements are to be accepted arguendo. So, spirit-beings' activities are not subject to carnal moral scrutiny. They transcend human moralizing, just as my activities transcend whatever vegetables do in response to their environment.

and then, not quite 6 hours later:

But the question is whether there is something about human morality that binds, or "ought to" bind, other entities to pay attention to human beings, their lives, well-being, etc.

My view, obviously, is that "human morality" is a redundant expression. Even if morality is God-given, as some theists believe, then what it governs is human behavior. IMO, of course.

TD was unpersuaded. I suspect he will remain so.

I suppose the strongest atheist argument would be that there is no sentient being who moralizes, except human beings. Thus, the only standard of justice, truth and good is human justice, truth and good. It would also be especially appropriate to apply human standards to what is, after all, a human invention, or a projection of an aspect of the human psyche onto such phenomena as plague, natural disasters and the fortunes of war.

There you go, TD, don't say I never did anything for you.

reply to post by eight bits


lol, yeah, now I recall your comment about whether TD felt regrets at pulling plants in his gardens. This thread has certainly been going on for a while, surprising that we haven't come to any grand conclusions, eh?

Current scorecard, "unjust" deaths attributed to God:

TD: zero
Me: zero
Fundamentalists: God doesn't answer to you!
Random Jewish guy I found: Due to an obscure reference to the law, these guys all caused their own deaths somehow

Not sure where you'd weigh in on the scorecard, Eight Bits, but it might be your chance to stand out from the crowd.

(To the humour impaired, the above may be viewed satirically if you'd be offended otherwise :-)

Originally posted by eight bits
I suppose the strongest atheist argument would be that there is no sentient being who moralizes, except human beings. Thus, the only standard of justice, truth and good is human justice, truth and good.

I'm not certain that the only standard of justice, truth and good would be those employed by humans but naturally it serves as the most appropriate yardstick by which to measure events that affect us, including those found in religious tales.

It would also be especially appropriate to apply human standards to what is, after all, a human invention, or a projection of an aspect of the human psyche onto such phenomena as plague, natural disasters and the fortunes of war.

Indeed, human beings tend to chauvinistically anthropomorphize the universe. It's no surprise that we invent gods in our image, give him the traits of our cultures and occasionally represent him as a serial killing jackass.

reply to post by adjensen


Firstly I am not an Atheist.
Secondly thank you for the link to the Christian website 'Proof that God exists'. Interesting quotes but no REAL proof IMO. In step 4 on the path to the proof this website claims that rape and child molestation are morally wrong, which I completely agree with. Unfortunately YOUR God sanctioned the rape of many women so that men wouldn't be sodomised, or after the 'Israelites' had won a battle against a neighbour, killed all the men and boys, but the young women and girls were kept for them to do whatever they wanted with them.
So yes I agree with you we do see diffenet parts of them same book in a different light.

reply to post by WENEEDAREVOLUTION


Well, Slugger gave you the link, I didn't. Interesting site, though.

I do not believe that MY God promotes rape, torture, mass murder or any of the other claims of the atheistic caricature of "Evil God". End of story, you've no argument with me, or any other Christian who is not a fundamentalist.