PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

reply to post by IamBoon


with out non believers there wouldn't be any believers.

one cant exist minus the other.

if we were all believers then it wouldn't be an act of faith.

I personally believe in what the Sumerians wrote about and recorded.

they had nothing to gain from there beliefs, in contrast to religion and movements that came after.

plus a great deal of what you call the bible originates from cultures thousands of years older. its just been adapted and used as a tool to control people

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

To me this is an issue of placing the negative in the incorrect place.

According to who????

You crack me up.


Keep twisting....keep turning....but you still have a belief.

Sorry

No, I have disbelief.

Sorry.

At some point you'll be able to discern the difference between the two

Originally posted by butcherguy
I guess I didn't quit.

traditionaldrummer has NO BELIEF that god exists.

In this light I would like to ask him this question:

Do you believe this statement?

God does not exist.

I could accept it. But it's an absolute statement so I may not entirely agree with it.

reply to post by IamBoon


if you accept that there is no evidence either way - then the null hypothesis is the logical one

otherwise you get bogged down in irrelevant beliefs

So me not believing in gods is now a belief?


Presumably me not believing in a species of solid gold, french speaking unicorns who live on the moon, is now a belief?

In fact everything I believe in, and everything I do not believe in, is a belief?


Glad that's sorted. Which word in the English language do you want to make completely meaningless next?

Do you believe this statement?

God does not exist.

I agree with that statement. I don't believe in god. How hard is that to understand?


[edit on 30/7/10 by FatherLukeDuke]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

then his assertion is partly faith based.

Is the assertion that Unicorns probably don't exist also faith based?

Partly, of course, since no man can say with certainty that unicorns do not exist. Just because that is inconvenient doesn't make it untrue.

While I agree that the assertion "There is no God" requires faith I do not think the statement "I do not believe in God" or "To my knowledge there is no objectively verified evidence of God and therefore I lack faith or belief in him" requires faith.

Yes, but you're understating the last bit. He is saying there is no empirical evidence for God; therefore, he believes God does not exist or probably does not exist... these are assertions made without absolute evidence, which means they're beliefs or statements of faith.

Secondly, while it may be true that he'd be keeping the door open by saying God probably doesn't exist... that is still an assertion. The assertion being that God probably doesn't exist. That type of assertion still requires some kind of belief or faith because he does not possess knowledge that God does not exist, nor does he possess the knowledge to say God probably doesn't exist.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]

reply to post by PuterMan


Anyone that asserts the god of the Jew, Christians , and Muslims to be the same needs to stop commenting on theology immediately !

There are so many differences between the 3 gods , how they are worshiped, their laws , their judgment, their attributes , and what they consist of.

So much work for so little Sn F. I guess it was not worthy.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Hi,

I think that the word 'God' has become so individualized to the point where we have to think of this word as some omnipotent or all knowing being.

There is no true living god we are all gods of our own experience and mirror ourselves into life, yet there are people or beings who possess god-like and demonic qualities.

On the other hand there is 'god' in the form of nature and the reality of existence which we know so little of, the infinity of life and purpose of the universe, this is the true 'god'; life.

So to say atheists do not believe in a single god or to say you do not believe in god is ignorance in the fact that you are living you life as your own god, your own choices and manifestations.

Yet you are living within nature, the true god which is all and everything, infinite in aspects and in space and time everything is free within it/him/her.

To say that you do not believe in god represents your lack of understanding of nature and ignorance that god/nature is all. Period

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I do not believe what you are saying is true.

If the words"do not believe " are attributed to my stance it must make it a matter of fact. This is not true however as the words "do not believe" or "lack of belief" just define the stance or assertion. They have no bearing on what is or isn't a belief , they just signify an attribute of that belief.

THerefore it is a matter of opinion and is a belief regarding the SUBJECT of the idea.

I do not believe in intelligent design. Belief? T or F?
I lack belief in the concept of a soul. Belief? Tor F?
I assert that reality is abstract. Belief? Tor F?

The definition of a stance as a negative does not preclude the stance or strip it as a matter of opinion and therefore belief.




[edit on 30-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

To me this is an issue of placing the negative in the incorrect place.

According to who????

You crack me up.


Keep twisting....keep turning....but you still have a belief.

Sorry

No, I have disbelief.

Sorry.

At some point you'll be able to discern the difference between the two

Believers also have disbelief in the non-existence of a God. By your logic, they're not believers in the idea of there being a God, but rather disbelievers of there not being one.

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

I do not believe what you are saying is true.

If the words"do not believe " are attributed to my stance it must make it a matter of fact.

THerefore it is not a matter of opinion and is not a belief.

I do not believe in intelligent design. Belief? T or F?
I lack belief in the concept of a soul. Belief? Tor F?
I assert that reality is abstract. Belief? Tor F?

The definition of a stance as a negative does not preclude the stance or strip it as a matter of opinion and therefore belief.

Exactly because a statement like, "I lack belief in the concept of a soul," still carries with it assertions.

However, if we were talking about babies who lack a belief in the concept of a soul, then things would be different. Babies are utterly ignorant, so of course they can lack belief in things without asserting anything.

I would have to agree 100% that atheism is a belief.

But just like telling a Christian their views are based on beliefs, they will get angry and say otherwise.

reply to post by IamBoon


I agree with most of it save the "it's not a belief" part. The only way to say you are not answering the question is to not answer the question. Answering no to a question is in no realistic sense not answering the question. You have an opinion after all and express it in the label of "atheist".

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

If you read the entire section you would realize I am aseerting that Atheism IS a belief.

But wait a minute. Are you saying that Atheism is a belief? I think you're saying atheism is a belief.

I tried similar arguments in posts. I failed miserably it seems that this going on. What makes you think you'll succeed? I'm not saying you should not succeed. Well, you should succeed! I just don't think you'll succeed. Good luck succeeding!

reply to post by randyvs


If you choose not to decide..

you still have made a choice..

same concept.....

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by PuterMan

 

Anyone that asserts the god of the Jew, Christians , and Muslims to be the same needs to stop commenting on theology immediately !

There are so many differences between the 3 gods , how they are worshiped, their laws , their judgment, their attributes , and what they consist of.

So much work for so little Sn F. I guess it was not worthy.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Cannot the same be said of the two gods of the Christian bible?

reply to post by IamBoon


Let me ask you directly, who is this God person you are talking about?

Why should I believe in him?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
No, I have disbelief.

A disbelief is believing the contrary to the belief on the same continuum with the disbelief.

By analogy, is absolute zero a temperature? It is on the same continuum as every other temperature.

I know some think black is not color but it sure is in the context of perception. It's in the same space continuum as other colors.

To not have a belief is to be dead. This is actually a much-sought state of mind, one you cannot really seek!

Originally posted by baddmove
reply to post by randyvs

 

If you choose not to decide..

you still have made a choice..

same concept.....

Rush lyrics FTW. Debate over.

reply to post by EnlightenUp


I am hoping that my argument speaks for itself. There so far has not been one idea that contradicts or nullifies my argument.

So far the only arguments that have been put forth against mine are the positions I already nullified in the OP.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

I am an Atheist and I assert it is a belief.