Revelation; The Beast-great leader and antichrist

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by hootieowl

 

I've got a different angle.
I think all the current talk about "building the third temple" is ignoring the significance of 1 Corinthians ch3 v16;
"Do you not know that you are God's temple, and that God's spirit dwells in you?"
That one needs to be pondered.
(Incidentally this is "you" in the plural, the community. The reference to the individual body is later in the letter)


[edit on 1-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

For the Christian, yes the temple is within. But in the Jewish mindset it is an external temple. I think we have to consider this, IMHO.

Originally posted by hootieowl
For the Christian, yes the temple is within. But in the Jewish mindset it is an external temple. I think we have to consider this, IMHO.

But I would argue that, as one of the components of the New Testament, Revelation is a Chrsitian book, a work of Christian theology.
So that when it comes to interpreting what it means, the Christian mindset is the one that matters.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by hootieowl
For the Christian, yes the temple is within. But in the Jewish mindset it is an external temple. I think we have to consider this, IMHO.

But I would argue that, as one of the components of the New Testament, Revelation is a Chrsitian book, a work of Christian theology.
So that when it comes to interpreting what it means, the Christian mindset is the one that matters.

Referencing back to prior post on 1 Cor 3:16 - yes, this was for the christian exclusively, believing the temple is within us. No problem there.

I didn't look back far enough, was only looking at the Dome of Rock reference. In Rev 11:1-3 is what was in my mind regarding the physical temple being built. And this written when, 90-95 A.D. - when christianity is already off and running. So this alone should show it is for the Jew.


Another way to look at this - it's not what you or I may believe is necessary, it's what they believe.
www.templemount.org...


...good discussion on this thread

[edit on 2-8-2010 by hootieowl]

Originally posted by hootieowl
Another way to look at this - it's not what you or I may believe is necessary, it's what they believe.

www.templemount.org...

Ah, yes- there's that problem as well- people thinking they can do something about "fulfilling prophecy" by getting a physical temple built.
Given what would have to happen in the world to make that possible, it's a very disturbing line of thought, especially to someone who thinks, as I do, that they're barking up the wrong tree altogether.

I could do my little bit to convince them of that, but I'm only one voice.

Ya know, Malachi 3 & 4 are an interesting study (good for another post maybe) on the Temple within or physical. Enough on that here.

Now regarding the New Testament as a christian text, by all means. Yet signs and wonders are given for all, Jew or Gentile. Anyone.

reply to post by hootieowl

Ah, yes, Malachi.
A very important warning.
But this Revelation project is definitely going to keep me occupied to the New Year, at present rate of progress.
I'm sure you could do an excellent thread on Malachi, and I would look forward to it.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by St Udio

 

"Blessed is he who waits and comes to them".
So it sounds to me as though they ought to represent the final end of troubles, not the beginning of more troubles.

exactly as i tried to express in my statement:

from my earlier post:

ergo 689CE (build the abomination of Desolation) plus 1,335 years = either commences the 7 year tribulation ...
or is the time when the beast-man is Revealed.

and as such are the "End-Times"... i.e. the final, latter half, 1260 days, of the 70th Week--> which is the time of the vials/bowls/7 final plagues/the 7 thunders!

you don't make a lot of sense sometimes

Originally posted by St Udio
which is the time of the vials/bowls/7 final plagues/the 7 thunders!

I still think that combination sounds more like the beginning of troubles than the end of them.
If I was facing all that lot, I would not think my troubles had come to an end.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by St Udio
which is the time of the vials/bowls/7 final plagues/the 7 thunders!

I still think that combination sounds more like the beginning of troubles than the end of them.
If I was facing all that lot, I would not think my troubles had come to an end.

unless you were of those who had NOT the mark of the beast...
those 144,000 that have been 'sealed' will be killed...
not by the final plagues/vials/bowls of Gods' armies/Angels

but by the wrath of the AC/FalseProphet regime and all those who had already accepted the 'MARK' or his 'NAME' or his 'NUMBER'


blessed are those who 'perservere' ---
that means to me - that they went through the purges/ the mass killings/ the progroms againt the 'sealed' and those whom refused the MARK...

all the way up until the 7th Trumpet when this 'Lord' sets afoot on the physical Earth

[edit on 2-8-2010 by St Udio]

Originally posted by St Udio
those 144,000 that have been 'sealed' will be killed...
not by the final plagues/vials/bowls of Gods' armies/Angels

but by the wrath of the AC/FalseProphet regime and all those who had already accepted the 'MARK' or his 'NAME' or his 'NUMBER'

OK.
Speaking of which, have you seen my newer thread on the Mark?
Do you think my theory of the "principle of informed consent" is valid?

reply to post by DISRAELI

Speaking of which, here is a link to that thread;

The Mark of the Beast

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by hootieowl
Another way to look at this - it's not what you or I may believe is necessary, it's what they believe.

www.templemount.org...

Ah, yes- there's that problem as well- people thinking they can do something about "fulfilling prophecy" by getting a physical temple built.
Given what would have to happen in the world to make that possible, it's a very disturbing line of thought, especially to someone who thinks, as I do, that they're barking up the wrong tree altogether.

I could do my little bit to convince them of that, but I'm only one voice.

Don't think the Jews are "trying" to fulfill the prophecy, they cannot fulfill 33 or their 613 commandments until that have that Temple. The problem being is that this area is currently under control of the Palestinian Authority.

They are making all the instruments, everything to go inside.... it's gonna get interesting!!

Originally posted by hootieowl

Don't think the Jews are "trying" to fulfill the prophecy, they cannot fulfill 33 or their 613 commandments until that have that Temple.

If you believe the conspiracy theories, there are Christians anxious to make sure the "Temple prophecies" can be fulfilled. That's really what was going through my mind. Though I don't know whether they really exist, or whether they're just a conspiracy theory myth.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by St Udio
those 144,000 that have been 'sealed' will be killed...
not by the final plagues/vials/bowls of Gods' armies/Angels

but by the wrath of the AC/FalseProphet regime and all those who had already accepted the 'MARK' or his 'NAME' or his 'NUMBER'

OK.
Speaking of which, have you seen my newer thread on the Mark?
Do you think my theory of the "principle of informed consent" is valid?

quite simpily...NO

an individuals' consent is/has been superceded by the law/rule of destiny...

after all, it is stated by the highest authority that ....(If one is destined to be in captivity then it shall be so,
and if one is destined to die by the sword, so shall they be slain)
= this is paraphrased from the scriptures which address the final 6th seals/trumpets/etc!
~understand that the days & times are also shortened...iow, all the laws & rules given humanity have been suspended & changed during a span of time of this 1260 day period...where even one's freedom of choice has been suspended by the Angelic forces which are confronting the 'beast' empire/regime... those that remain are under special protection & laws



this is the decreed fate of those that go through the 'Great Tribulation'
in the 70th week... which is very much different from the self-determination & individual choices allowed individuals in the times & eras leading up to the climax of time/end times,,, so it is written (if one has paid attention to the emphasis given and warnings proclaimed

[edit on 2-8-2010 by St Udio]

Originally posted by St Udio
an individuals' consent is/has been superceded by the law/rule of destiny...

this is the decreed fate of those that go through the 'Great Tribulation'
in the 70th week... which is very much different from the self-determination & individual choices allowed individuals in the times & eras leading up to the climax of time/end times,,, so it is written (if one has paid attention to the emphasis given and warnings proclaimed

You can believe that God will reject, as enemies, people who are totally unconscious of making any kind of decision on the matter?

Well, I've never been a Calvinist, so I can't. You can say, if you like, that I'm projecting my own sense of justice upon God.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
If you believe the conspiracy theories, there are Christians anxious to make sure the "Temple prophecies" can be fulfilled. That's really what was going through my mind. Though I don't know whether they really exist, or whether they're just a conspiracy theory myth.

Good point!! No doubt a bunch of Christians would be over their in a heartbeat to get this "show on the road".

Originally posted by DISRAELI
[]

You can believe that God will reject, as enemies, people who are totally unconscious of making any kind of decision on the matter?

Well, I've never been a Calvinist, so I can't. You can say, if you like, that I'm projecting my own sense of justice upon God.

your view of the populations alive during this great tribulation is kind of odd.
Are you suggesting that there are innocents being condemed by your God?

if you hold to the pre-trib rapture, there are only the wicked left to be punished on the final Day-of-the-Lord...
so where do these innocents come from?

evidently, because scripture says that there will be a great multitude who have shed blood, died, for their belief/faith during the great tribulation,
that the martyrs & saints have chosen to die for their faith & belief in the Lord...
and not as you say '''...people who are totally unconscious of making any kind of decision on the matter...'''
no sir... those who die or are killed, martyred by the false prophet in the name of the 1st beast, have chosen their fate, have chosen to be sealed with the mark of the Lord instead of the Mark-of-the-beast...
so your statement is vacuous & without merit.

what's really gruesome with the end time scene is that God definitely requires many to die a bloody death until the number of martyrs is sufficient. Which is why the elders around the throne are told to be patient until the bloodshedding of the saints is fufilled.

the saints along with the unrighteous who have the 'Mark' both endure suffering torture & death.... which is God ordained

Originally posted by St Udio
your view of the populations alive during this great tribulation is kind of odd...
if you hold to the pre-trib rapture, there are only the wicked left to be punished on the final Day-of-the-Lord...
so where do these innocents come from?

Ah, so this is where we come to the root of the matter. I don't hold to a pre-trib rapture. So that's where my innocents come from. They come from not being raptured. Since the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture is not universal, there is nothing very odd about an approach which leaves it out of consideration.

evidently, because scripture says that there will be a great multitude who have shed blood, died, for their belief/faith during the great tribulation,
that the martyrs & saints have chosen to die for their faith & belief in the Lord...
and not as you say '''...people who are totally unconscious of making any kind of decision on the matter...'''
no sir... those who die or are killed, martyred by the false prophet in the name of the 1st beast, have chosen their fate, have chosen to be sealed with the mark of the Lord instead of the Mark-of-the-beast...
so your statement is vacuous & without merit.

You have misunderstood me, because that's not what I'm talking about.
If you refer back to my thread on the Mark, you can re-read my section headed "the spiritual effect of the mark", where I draw attention to the fact that those who have taken the Mark will be forced to "drink the wine of God's wrath" and be tormented for ever (ch14). I then observe that God can hardly, in justice, condemn them as his enemies for taking the mark unless their acceptance of the Mark was both free (in the sense that it was not imposed by physical violence) and conscious (in the sense that it was not imposed by deception). In other words, the Mark could not do the work of identifying the genuine enemies of God unless it met what I called "the condition of voluntary loyalty" and "the condition of conscious loyalty", adding up to the principle of "informed choice". Did you not read that bit?
I havn't been discussing the martyrdoms, you brought that in yourself.

Which is why the elders around the throne are told to be patient until the bloodshedding of the saints is fufilled.

Not the elders around the throne. The "souls under the altar", fifth seal, ch6. As discussed in my thread under that name, which is why I'm familiar with the story.

Souls under the altar

And, while I'm at it;

Revelation; The Mark of the Beast

[edit on 3-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Could it be that the abomination of desolation is the mosque on the Temple Mount. It could be that the UN is one of the beasts. How about this one for all you rapture people out there, we're already in the Tribulation. The seals were opened around WW1. The trumpets started around WW2. Right now I believe we're close to the fifth trumpet. How long is a generation of a man? 70, 90, 120 years. Didn't Christ say something to the effect this generation would not pass away until all these things come to pass. When the two witnesses start their prophesying, we have three and a half years until the anti-Christ is revealed. Then we have 5 months, because if Jehovah doesn't shorten the days no flesh will be saved. I say 5 months because Christ said it would be as it was in the days of Noah. Noah was in the ark for 5 months. I think it was 100 years from the time Jehovah told Noah what he wanted him to do till the actual event. I could be wrong.

Let me tell you, those who favor war, no matter the cost, for whatever the reason, in this day and age, are the beasts. There is no such thing as a holy war.