Revelation; The Beast-great leader and antichrist

I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch13 vv11-15, which describes the second of the two "Beasts" of that chapter.

(The attached thread is where I looked at the first Beast;
The Beast from the sea- a World-state

I'm going to be asking the question; what is this Beast adding to his predecessor?

We're told that the second Beast rose out of the earth

Following on from the first Beast, which rose from the sea.
The earth and the sea were brought into the warning of ch12 v12;
"Rejoice, then, O heaven, and you that dwell therein!
But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath."

I suggest that these two figures, from the earth and the sea, are implicitly set over against, and contrasted with, the figure of Christ coming "from heaven". Then it would complete another reference to that three-way division of the universe, which is one of the running themes of Revelation.

What's the relationship between the first Beast and the second Beast?

My conclusion about the first Beast, on the one hand, was that it represented a political state.
On the other hand, I see no reason to question the standard assumption that the second Beast is a human individual.
Taking those two points together, that seems to settle the nature of the relationship.
They would relate in the same way that a political state relates to a human individual; the kind of individual, apparently, who makes people do things, a leader.

This looks like the kind of relationship that exists between an Empire and its Emperor.
History gives us a useful analogy for this, in the form of Nazi Germany.
We can say that the first Beast is to the second Beast as the Third Reich itself was to the person of Adolf Hitler.

The recognition of this relationship takes us a long way towards understanding the rest of the passage.

We're told that he exercises all the authority of the first Beast in its presence

That would be necessary from the nature of the relationship.

In theory, the Empire itself is the real source of authority.
In practice, the Empire cannot exercise authority in person, because the Empire is not a person.
So the Third Reich, as such, could not hold meetings with generals, or dictate letters to secretaries, or shout at incompetent subordinates and threaten to dismiss them. All these things, the practical exercise of authority, demanded the intervention of a human individual.
That was why it was necessary for Adolf Hitler to exercise all the authority of the Third Reich, "in its presence", as it were. Certainly in the presence of all the symbols of the Reich.

We're told that it makes the earth worship the first Beast

Arnold Toynbee, in "A Study of History", and other places, draws attention to a form of political religion which he calls "collective self-worship", when a society becomes its own god. As when Vespasian instituted the worship of the GENIUS POPULI ROMANI ("the spirit of the Roman people"). He finds it in the city-state loyalties of ancient Greece, and the nationalism of modern Europe. One of the classic examples, of course, is Nazi Germany, where the loyalty of the German nation was being focussed by Hitler upon an idealised and glorified vision of the German nation.

Toynbee foresees that this might be enlarged into a "collective worship of Humanity". I've already suggested that the first Beast, the world-state, would be able to rise to power on the strength of leading the world into recovery from a catastrophe. In those circumstances, it might be easy for the population of the world to recognise the world-state as a projection of themselves, and the second Beast could be encouraging them to do so.

"Collective self-worship of Humanity" would be the natural result, and there would be no need for compulsion- when did people ever need compulsion to worship themselves?

We're told that he makes fire come down from heaven

This, again, is about the promotion of worship. It imitates the story in which Elijah called down the fire to vindicate his god against the prophets of Baal. Perhaps it would relate to a reversal of what happened at Mt Carmel, in which the Beast appears to scatter the power of the Christian church.

What was the nearest equvalent in Hitler's experience? Perhaps it was this;


Surely that was the moment when he felt most clearly that his god, the Reich, had demonstrated its power and scattered its enemies.

We're told that he gets the people to make an image of the Beast

This, again, is about the promotion of worship. But an image does not need to be made of wood and stone.
Here is Adolf Hitler building an image of the Reich;


In this case, the image of the glory of the German nation is being built by sight and sound.

We're told that he can make the image speak

Here is Adolf Hitler, causing his image to speak.


Which he does, obviously, by being the spokesman (since the image cannot speak for itself).
We were told in v5 that the original Beast "was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words", and the second Beast is later re-labelled as "the false prophet". That seems to confirm that the voice of the second Beast would be just as central to its leadership as it was in the case of Adolf Hitler.

So the two Beasts are in partnership, and the people's worship has a double focus.
In one sense, they are worshipping the Reich, or the world-state.
But, in another sense, their worship is focussed more narrowly upon the great leader himself.

We're told that it had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

In other words, he presents himself as Christ (the Lamb), but the actual content of his speech gives him away.

It's become the custom to call him "The Antichrist", although the title doesn't appear in this book.
I must admit I don't like using the label, because it carries so many associations from mediaeval fantasy and Hollywood fantasy and other speculations. All this baggage tends to confuse discussion of the figure found in Revelation.

Let's get back to basics and consider the definition.
The disciples were told by Jesus that "many will come in my name, saying 'I am the Christ'"- Matthew ch24 v5
The early church was told by John that "as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come"- 1 John ch2 v18
The natural and reasonable assumption is that both references to "many" are to the same kind of people, and that an "antichrist" should be understood as someone claiming to be the returned Christ (taking the Greek ANTI as "in place of").

Does this apply to the second Beast? There are certainly signs that Christ is being imitated, not only in the "horns of a lamb", but also in the business of "recovering from a mortal wound". I think the narrative is sending a sufficiently clear signal that he would, indeed, be claiming to be the returned Christ.

(Though he might, at the same time, be claiming other titles, such as Mahdi and Maitreya and Krishna, in order to broaden his appeal to the other cultures of the world)

But if he publicly claims to be the returned Christ, then he meets the definition of an "antichrist" and belongs to that category. Since he would, presumably, be the final and supreme example of the species, I suppose you can call him "The Antichrist".
If you must.

If we look at the world around us, we cannot see a world-leader publicly claiming to be the returned Christ.
In any case, on my theory, we should not be expecting to see the two Beasts until after the catastrophic events of the Four Horsemen, which the world has not yet experienced.

But once a world-leader does make that claim, the identification should not be difficult.






[edit on 18-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI


To make a beast speak is to start the kigndom. Nowhere does it say I come acting to be christ. I am here, and yet u Refuse to See me. I have come.. It says in the latter day of their kingdom a king shall stand up. I am here - Latter means ending. The once kingdom that is in latter is the USA.

In the end God is a pedo/murderer/homo/etc.

Also ur like the rest - Read "he shall not desire the company of woman" and try to gay it up - which oddly one would ask - if I were gay - wouldn't it just say I was and Would God/Jesus Confuse u? I AM NOW GAY, I was just neutered from having Children/going out with woman. - Also people today who profess to know - don't - they don't even read it like it is/ they add/subtract/ change what should not be, etc.

Again I know these things - I also know Dark Sentences Meaning I simply know what goes on a bit in the background and what's going on in general and deeper than the Book says.

Wow, I am here, and yet u refuse to see Me. - U asked - U looked - I stand up - I fulfill and yet u all laugh and say I'm crazy.

So again lastly - u will NEVER find Me if U can't find me now.

Lastly - Welcome to the New World, Sincerely - ur World King.

reply to post by nowshining


ASPHYNCHTER SAYS WHAT???

Dude, I've read your other posts and threads, and I just can't possibly make out a single line of coherence in anything you write.

Follow other members' advise and seek professional help. Now. Don't just stand there. Go!

@ Disraeli:

I've been following your posts on eschatology and totally dig them, keep them coming! S&F for you.

reply to post by RadioKnecht

Thank you for your encouragement.
I'm glad somebody's reading them (I was beginning to wonder if I was a voice crying in the wilderness!)

reply to post by nowshining

Er...yes.
I've checked your profile- I see that you've started a number of threads on the Antichrist, so you must have some opinions on the matter.
A comparison of the two sets of views would have been more constructive.

SARAH PALIN

PALE HORSE

ANAGRAM

PALIN= PALE

SARAH=HORSE

." I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hell was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

John McCain

MC means son of

CAIN son of Adam who brought DEATH to his brother Abel

“I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death,”

Originally posted by inforeal
SARAH PALIN

PALE HORSE

ANAGRAM

PALIN= PALE

SARAH=HORSE

In the first place, a proper anagram means using all the letters in the original word, so this doean't work.

I've already done a thread on the 4 Horsemen, including the pale horse.
The 4 Horsemen

There was not space to discuss this before, but...

There was a thread on ATS in recent months (though I think it was a revival) discussing "whether the Antichrist could be female?"

I remember being startled, not by the suggestion itself, but by the female reaction to the idea that the Antichrist had to be male.

"The Antichrist" is supposed to be the most evil individual in the history of the world- why on earth should there be some sort of feminist grievance about the idea that such a person would not be female?

Anyway, I see no particular theological problem with the idea of a female Antichrist. The text itself describes the Beast as "it", so it remains neutral.
The only problem I can see is a practical one- an antichrist, by definition,is claiming to be a returned Jesus. Since Jesus is well-known to be male, how successful would a female claimant be in convincing people?

reply to post by DISRAELI

"... The Beast-great leader and antichrist"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

it seems to me that the Beast from the Earth (aka; False Prophet)

excells the first-come Anti-Christ (beast from the Sea)
who does little else than receive a mortal head wound, after prompting a 7 year 'peace' to be enacted....albiet without him in the power seat...
as the false-prophet reigns! by authority of the disabled A.C.

its the false prophet that gives life to the image on holy ground,
its the false prophet that causes the 'Mark/Number/Name' to be placed in peoples hand or forehead
it is the false prophet that causes 'fire' from the sky at his command

the false prophet is the real nemesis for christians and the other masses not the debilitated or long-gone Anti-Christ... whose 'image' is the replacement Authority in this end-time scenario,

[we could be realistically be looking at a rejuvination of "Hitler's Nazism'
as the predecessor Beast-from-the-Sea
(which was 'killed' and then was miraculously resurrected),
to the astonishment of the literate masses...
and then the rebirth of a global, nazi-socialist, political/economic order...
because of the future 'false prophet' leadership.


IMHO, your analysis is much too ingrained with the modern eras pop-culture eschatology & rapture worldviews and modern interpetations.
eagle = usa
bear = russia
lion= GB
leopard= germany
~all these are misinformation, at least~ and popularized by the WWCOG when herbert w armstrong was alive & in charge & producing a plethora of written materials

Originally posted by St Udio

IMHO, your analysis is much too ingrained with the modern eras pop-culture eschatology & rapture worldviews and modern interpetations.
eagle = usa
bear = russia
lion= GB
leopard= germany
~all these are misinformation, at least~ and popularized by the WWCOG when herbert w armstrong was alive & in charge & producing a plethora of written materials

My first reaction on this point is that you have misunderstood me, because I don't use the schema quoted above at all (I was only using Hitler as a model)
In my comments on the first Beast (see link in the original post), I analysed the four Beasts in the conventional way-
Babylon, Medo-Persia, Alexander (and I left the fourth for another time).
We may not be far apart in your other comments. I'll take a closer look at them.

reply to post by St Udio

And another thing.
What do you mean by saying that my analysis is too engrained with rapture world-views.
It can't be, I don't have any rapture world-views, I don't believe in the "Rapture" in the modern popular sense.

Wait a minute, I think I can see what's happening.

The thread title is the only portion that you've quoted, and that's because it's the only portion that you've actually read!
Yes, that's it. You identify "The Antichrist" with the first Beast, so when you read the title you took it for granted that I was talking about the first Beast, and jumped in with your asessment of how the second Beast was more important.
Whereas, if you had read the thread, you would have realised that I was actually talking about the second Beast.

So you've been making your magisterial comments about my thread without reading any part of it except the title, which you've completely misunderstood.
I would be grateful if you could have another look, and try again.




[edit on 18-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by nowshining


Um whaaaa?



No really, what I mean is...................waahduhfaah?



Huuuhhh?

[edit on 18/7/2010 by Chamberf=6]

Great thread, keep them coming, it's always nice to have some actual decent work on revelations.

reply to post by hippomchippo

Thank you very much, encouragement is always welcome.
Glad to be appreciated.

yes Disraeli, i think you've done a great job in your explanation of the beasts of revelations. keep witnessing

S&F

reply to post by iamnot

Many thanks, your encouragement is appreciated.

Dis,

ain't trying to jack your thread but I know precisely what REV 13 is all about because I'm fulfilling it - que eye roll...

Beast out of Sea = memetic systems, www/TV, scarcity paradigm, Babylon

Seemingly Fatal Wound = Y2K

Beast out of Earth = Genetic Agent, 2nd Christ

Exercising Authority of First Beast = www.myspace.com...

Fire From Heaven = www.ufodigest.com...

Breathing life into image of first beast = www.abovetopsecret.com...

...It is appropriate because it is prophecy about Soul-Catching, followed by Nostradamus prophecy of Soul-Catching.

I invented the Neuromimetic Hybrid Processor in question, and the non-invasive BMI that will allow for my consciousness to be transferred to it. I pitched it to DARPA but being an independent inventor I was dismissed - to my knowledge. I studied interdisciplinarian computer engineering at Cornell...I was told not to use my imagination...

This technology will never come from academic/military circles, pieces perhaps but not the whole thing. The reason I could invent it and they can't is because they are specialists and I study everything.

I provided a link to the abstract about my NHP. What I didn't know when I wrote that abstract back in 2001 was the driver for it:

www.imagination-engines.com...

Also Sony has been working on a similar non-invasive BMI, mine is like a miniature version of HAARP, the scalar bottle acts as the thalamus.

All the parts are available, I don't have the means to prototype or patent it myself but I don't really need to to know it will work, the brain is quite capable of back-engineering itself.

Worshipping first beast = watching tv, surfing www, eventual E-Govt

Setting up an image in honor of first beast = E-Govt, biometric ID

Originally posted by Kalki11
but I know precisely what REV 13 is all about because I'm fulfilling it - ist

Exercising Authority of First Beast = ://www.myspace.com/535617560/blog

You're not, because the second Beast is able to exercise control over "the earth and its inhabitants".
You're patently nowhere near that situation, because people are not taking notice of you.
You are a long,long, way from "power over all the earth"

[edit on 19-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI


Dont be so literal, Bro!

What about the native Americans and Africans and all the other people colonized and destroyed by European Christianity?

Who is their beast and anti-christ?