Mosque At Ground Zero

reply to post by SlasherOfVeils

Unfortunately, the imam wanting to build this Islamic "victory house" on the site of such a tragedy believes quite the opposite, believing that if America wants peace with the conservative and extremist Islamics it needs to conform to Sharia Law the same way Indonesia and other prevalently Islamic countries do (AKA, Sharia Law comes first and foremost before National Law for the Islamic people, and in many cases, IS the national law, something we call a theocracy and also something our Founding Fathers did NOT ever want. Is separation of church and state becoming a lost concept or something?)

What kind of nonsense is that?

Ok, check it out, go, get a clue, then come back when you aren't completely and totally wrong. Once you aren't completely wrong, we will listen to the rest of your heart string pulling diatribe on humanity.

At last estimate there were between 4000-12000 Muslims serving in active duty in the US Military.

So while they are off in Afghanistan or Iraq risking thier life daily for the country they love...maybe someone should go tell them that those freedoms that they are willing to die for don't apply to them.

"Freedom of Religion"...love it or leave it. The minute America starts to pick and choose who gets to practice what religion is the moment we stop being America.

Originally posted by maybereal11
At last estimate there were between 4000-12000 Muslims serving in active duty in the US Military.

So while they are off in Afghanistan or Iraq risking thier life daily for the country they love...maybe someone should go tell them that those freedoms that they are willing to die for don't apply to them.

"Freedom of Religion"...love it or leave it. The minute America starts to pick and choose who gets to practice what religion is the moment we stop being America.

No one is arguing our freedom of religion. I have not seen one post where anyone has basically said to hell with Islam. What we are arguing is why does it HAVE to be built there? It doesn't. Not at all. There is no excuse for it. I will bet $100 if this had happened a year after 9/11 the views would be very different. No one can sit here and tell me that there ISN'T another spot in ALL of Manhattan that this mosque could not be built. It just seems that the people who approved this are more worried about places to preach than the memories of the people who died that day. That is sick. If we are all forgetting what happened that day then this is "the moment we stop being America."

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

Originally posted by maybereal11
At last estimate there were between 4000-12000 Muslims serving in active duty in the US Military.

So while they are off in Afghanistan or Iraq risking thier life daily for the country they love...maybe someone should go tell them that those freedoms that they are willing to die for don't apply to them.

"Freedom of Religion"...love it or leave it. The minute America starts to pick and choose who gets to practice what religion is the moment we stop being America.

No one is arguing our freedom of religion. I have not seen one post where anyone has basically said to hell with Islam. What we are arguing is why does it HAVE to be built there? It doesn't. Not at all. There is no excuse for it. I will bet $100 if this had happened a year after 9/11 the views would be very different. No one can sit here and tell me that there ISN'T another spot in ALL of Manhattan that this mosque could not be built. It just seems that the people who approved this are more worried about places to preach than the memories of the people who died that day. That is sick. If we are all forgetting what happened that day then this is "the moment we stop being America."

Yes, not allowing another religions worshiping place, which is actually apart of a much larger community center that includes several other facilities, because it's being built close to ground zero, is being American. Because when I think America, I disregard the constitution and all of the freedoms we have.



This is really simple people, and if you refuse to follow the logic you're simply dense.


If this isn't okay in your eyes because it's "insensitive"....why? Why is it insensitive? You insist the reason you don't want this built it because it's insensitive and not because it's a building related to Islam. If so, what about this is insensitive?

reply to post by SpectreDC


The insensitivity is planning to build it there to begin with. Where was all the "sensitivity" when the terrorists killed 3,000 people? I refuse to believe that this is the ONLY spot on the ENTIRE Manhattan island where they could build this mosque. The fact this man, or group or whoever, decided to want to have it right there, goes to show that they just don't care about the "sensitivity."

NOT building it there is not violating anyone's right to freedom of religion. They can simply build it elsewhere. No one is, including me, saying to NOT build one at all. They can build 20 mosques for all I care...on ground zero 750 feet from the impact site? Sorry...you don't and won't have my vote.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
reply to post by SpectreDC

 

The insensitivity is planning to build it there to begin with. Where was all the "sensitivity" when the terrorists killed 3,000 people? I refuse to believe that this is the ONLY spot on the ENTIRE Manhattan island where they could build this mosque. The fact this man, or group or whoever, decided to want to have it right there, goes to show that they just don't care about the "sensitivity."

NOT building it there is not violating anyone's right to freedom of religion. They can simply build it elsewhere. No one is, including me, saying to NOT build one at all. They can build 20 mosques for all I care...on ground zero 750 feet from the impact site? Sorry...you don't and won't have my vote.

I appreciate you prancing around my questions, repeating what you said, without providing anything of substance.

I've distinctly and clearly asked what is insensitive about it. And you clearly can't provide an answer to this.

Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by felonius

 

That's probably one of the most hateful things I've ever seen on ATS. It reeks of ignorance and flies in the face of all this country stands for. Tolerance of religion if it's yours, right? They've really done a number on you with this Muslim thing, haven't they? Pity.

Lucidity, I agree with you on many of your posts, but not this one. Building a mosque, so close to ground zero where the worst terrorist attack on our nation was committed by Muslims is, in my opinion, one of the most hateful and spiteful things that can be done with regard to the families of the victims of 9/11 and our nation's Constitution. Yes, we strive for freedom of Religion, but isn't the whole point of the extremist Muslim movement intolerance of any religion except Islam? And isn't that in part what drives extremist Muslims to want to convert or exterminate any who are not Muslim? Building a mosque so close to ground zero will be looked upon by extremist Muslims as yet another victory against America, this time by infiltrating from the inside. They will say "We took down two of their towers and now we have a mosque built right on top of the site where they were!" World Trade Centers destroyed - mosque erected. That sounds like a clear victory for radical Muslims to me.

reply to post by black cat


Too bad the Mosque, which as I made clear is actually a part of a community center with other facilities, isn't being built on top of ground zero.

And it's good to see you think the opinion of a minute minority of Muslim's should color our opinion and actions towards all Muslim's. Especially considering there are over 2 billion.

Originally posted by SpectreDC

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
reply to post by SpectreDC

 

The insensitivity is planning to build it there to begin with. Where was all the "sensitivity" when the terrorists killed 3,000 people? I refuse to believe that this is the ONLY spot on the ENTIRE Manhattan island where they could build this mosque. The fact this man, or group or whoever, decided to want to have it right there, goes to show that they just don't care about the "sensitivity."

NOT building it there is not violating anyone's right to freedom of religion. They can simply build it elsewhere. No one is, including me, saying to NOT build one at all. They can build 20 mosques for all I care...on ground zero 750 feet from the impact site? Sorry...you don't and won't have my vote.

I appreciate you prancing around my questions, repeating what you said, without providing anything of substance.

I've distinctly and clearly asked what is insensitive about it. And you clearly can't provide an answer to this.

Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

Hypothetical scenario to answer your question. Serial killer driven by a certain religion annihilates a family of five in their own house and then burns the place down with him in it. He posted his "manifesto" and references to his religious and philosophical beliefs online. Now, where that house once stood, a local church of the same religion this mad man belonged to erects a shrine to their religion amongst the flowers and cards that fill the now-vacant lot. How is the placement of that shrine not an affront to the memory of the slaughtered family?

reply to post by SpectreDC


Read through the thread. Would you build a statue of Hitler in Jerusalem? Re-erect the statue of Saddam in Baghdad? Not likely...So why would you build a mosque at ground zero? If that isn't why it's insensitive, then you just aren't listening to anyone.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

No one is arguing our freedom of religion.

I beg to differ, whether you realize it or not that is exactly what is being argued.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
What we are arguing is why does it HAVE to be built there?

Probably not, but I would still fight for thier right to build it there if the Gov. told them they couldn't.

It's about protecting what we stand for. I would be alarmed if the Gov suddenly told the KKK that they could not hold rallies too and I think those people are human trash. Get it?

The other side of this argument is that having a Mosque near ground zero is a wonderful way to hoist a big middle finger to all Islamic Extremists who continue to preach around the world that we are zenophobic intolerant empirialists who hate all Muslims. It is a terrific way to tell the world we will not let terrorism change what is great and fundemental about America.

There is no excuse for it. I will bet $100 if this had happened a year after 9/11 the views would be very different.

Not for me. Again, my thoughts following the shock and grieving of 9-11 turned immediately to what these terrorists goals were. They weren't dumb enough to think that they could "eradicate the Americans" by killing 3k people...the goal was to terrorize us...change us...instill fear...knowing that with fear comes the disease of potentially compromising what we fundementally are as a country. That was the goal. Fear based policy was the collateral damage that accompanied the lost of life and it was significant...we are still battling that disease today.

It just seems that the people who approved this are more worried about places to preach than the memories of the people who died that day. That is sick. If we are all forgetting what happened that day then this is "the moment we stop being America."

Big statement and if I were you I would keep in mind that those making the policy were likely present front and center in NYC on 9-11. I would ask you to show some respect before you accuse them of forgetting.

And I would ask that you consider that allowing this Mosque is another front the idealogical war on terror. Letting them know we remain America.

Originally posted by SpectreDC
reply to post by black cat

 

Too bad the Mosque, which as I made clear is actually a part of a community center with other facilities, isn't being built on top of ground zero.

And it's good to see you think the opinion of a minute minority of Muslim's should color our opinion and actions towards all Muslim's. Especially considering there are over 2 billion.

When that minority of extremists produces attacks that slaughter our people, you bet I believe it should color our perception of the whole community of Muslims. Where has the Muslim community denounced on a large scale the 9/11 attacks as not the point of their religion? Where have they sought to distance themselves from their blood-seeking brethren?

reply to post by maybereal11


Look how long they have been fighting over memorials, new towers etc...but here comes an idea for a mosque and they approve it in nearly a blink of an eye...if that isn't showing "forgetfulness" or "insensitivity" then I don't know what is.

Almost 11 years later: No memorial, no new towers...but an approved plan to build a mosque. I don't understand how anyone can't see what's wrong with that picture.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by DragonFire1024]

This is not about who did the 9/11 attack. The issue is about a mosque being built near the site of where the world trade center once stood. Here is the conclusion that I have come to:
It is a bad idea, it is a very bad idea. Even if you, yourself do not believe that extremist muslims attacked and killed all of those people on 9/11, the survivors and people who were affected, the majority of those people do. The hurt, and anger still runs deep in them. They not objecting to a mosque or a cultural center being build in New York, they are objecting to the location. And to them it would be like taking salt and rubbing it into an open wound. The argument of building a monument to Japan at Pearl Harbor where so many died in a sneak attack, is a valid argument and holds true. I do not believe the inman who is propsing this project means good will, nor do I believe he seeks peace, but to agitate the general population. Every time this comes up, and the video tapes are seen, blood runs hot, tempers raise, and a balance must be reached, one to satisfy both, though the solution will anger one side or the other.
I believe the Iman, the council considering this and the general population need to sit down and talk about this calmly, making suggestions as to alternative sites for the imman to build a mosque so that way all sides can be happy. Doing a land swap would be ideal, that way they do not loose any money in the process, and it would be a fair deal.

Originally posted by black cat

Hypothetical scenario to answer your question. Serial killer driven by a certain religion annihilates a family of five in their own house and then burns the place down with him in it. He posted his "manifesto" and references to his religious and philosophical beliefs online. Now, where that house once stood, a local church of the same religion this mad man belonged to erects a shrine to their religion amongst the flowers and cards that fill the now-vacant lot. How is the placement of that shrine not an affront to the memory of the slaughtered family?

Is this religion one of the largest in the world?

Do the mainstream believers in the religion vehemently denounce his actions?

And again, since people can't seem to read, I'll make it very clear again; THE COMMUNITY CENTER ISN'T BEING BUILT RIGHT ON TOP OF THE SITE. IT'S BEING BUILT SEVERAL BLOCKS AWAY.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
reply to post by SpectreDC

 

Read through the thread. Would you build a statue of Hitler in Jerusalem? Re-erect the statue of Saddam in Baghdad? Not likely...So why would you build a mosque at ground zero? If that isn't why it's insensitive, then you just aren't listening to anyone.

There is a massive difference between these two examples.

Building a statue of Hitler or a statue of Saddam only relates to Hitler or Saddam.

A mosque is the church of the worlds second largest religion.


The thing is buddy, I listen quite well, especially when people lie or contradict themselves.

You have said, as well as many of the people against this, that it isn't because of Islam. But in fact in this very example you are making it about Islam. You are saying the actions of a few speak for the actions of over 2 billion people, a majority of which do not even live in the Middle East.


Either this comparison sucks and you need a better one, or you're openly admitting the case of insensitivity is related to Islam because you think Islam is the reason 9/11 happened, and it wasn't just some pissed off, bat# crazy people who happened to have been Muslim's.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
reply to post by maybereal11

 

Look how long they have been fighting over memorials, new towers etc...but here comes an idea for a mosque and they approve it in nearly a blink of an eye...[edit on 15-7-2010 by DragonFire1024]

Memorials? New towers? Vs. a Mosque? You are take liberties portraying it as either/or, apples to apples when they are radically different proposals.

FIRST...THE PROPOSED MOSQUE WOULDN'T EVEN BE AT GROUND ZERO.

SECOND...THE PROPOSED MOSQUE WOULDN'T "LOOK DOWN ON" GROUND ZERO.

THE PROPOSED MOSQUE WOULD BE A COUPLE OF BLOCKS AWAY.

SEE MAP: indyposted.com...

Excuse the caps, but the BS is getting thick in here and I am begining to think this is nothing more than another partisan political thread where folks ignore facts for the sake of spouting their views.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by maybereal11]

reply to post by SpectreDC


Don't tell me what I do or do not believe. As I said earlier, which obviously you failed to read, they can build 20 mosques all on the same block or all over Manhattan. There is no NEED or REQUIREMENT to build it on or 750 feet from the site. You can throw in a community center or whatever, that won't make the least bit of difference to me. Just because you don't like my point of view on this doesn't make me a "liar." That is the problem with a lot of people on here. Tell others they are liars and whatever else in hopes they will see it YOUR way. Sorry that's not going to happen. So you can like it, or not.

Originally posted by SpectreDC

And again, since people can't seem to read, I'll make it very clear again; THE COMMUNITY CENTER ISN'T BEING BUILT RIGHT ON TOP OF THE SITE. IT'S BEING BUILT SEVERAL BLOCKS AWAY.

It doesn't matter! The proximity is so close that this can only be viewed as a victory for radical extremist muslims. Show me where the Islamic ruling body of clerics has publicly denounced the reason for the 9/11 attacks as not true to the real message of Islam and I'll back down.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
I've got it pintpointed to Bilderberg and the like and not one thing to do with Islam.

Even if this turns out to be true what is the motation of those building the mosque? With 140 already in New York city I feel there are reasons other than religious going on here.

reply to post by black cat


It's an emotional topic. I get that. On some levels, it's paranoia.

But the logic does not follow for me personally.First of all, it's over two blocks away, isn't it? Hardly on top of ground zero in perspective to the relative size of NYC. Second, people are digging and spreading it like wildfire, true or not. Third, many are choosing to allow this to divide when it could be used to unite. And we cannot deny some Americans (they are Americans, right? Or am I mistaken) the freedom of religion that all Americans enjoy. We cannot condemn Muslims as a whole for the actions of a few.

But I know one thing. The "terrorists," whoever they may be, and I sincerely doubt it's these people, are probably laughing at this further proof that, on top of our collective hate and fear, and on top of our disproportionate reaction to 9/11 in Afghanistan and Iraq. they really did win that day. This is further proof of their victory, but not in the way you think.

They fundamentally changed us. Made us cower. We appear to be a nation of people ruled by emotion and fear and not logic or common sense. That bothers me a lot.

If we're going the emotional route here, I'm far more upset about the hole in the ground that we've let there for going on 9 years now.

[edit on 7/15/2010 by ~Lucidity]