Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


I take it your coming from a Christian perspective on this.

The Jewish perspective is that as long as people follow a very basic set of rules, which every major religion follows and has followed, there will be a place for them in the world to come.

I believe the basic rules, called the Seven Laws of Noah, are probably subconsiously known by all people. Its up to us whether or not we embrace them.

As for hell or more accurately Gehenna. This is for the people who have no place in the world to come. Imagine the recycle bin on your desktop and thats a far more accurate depiction than Dante's Inferno or Milton's Paradise Lost. Its a place of annihilation, where one is erased from existence. It reminds me of a black hole.

Why does HaShem (G-d), allow people to exist who are going to end up being erased? Why doesn't He delete them earlier? Why does He breathe the Breath of Life into them allowing them to be born?

There are probably multiple reasons for this.

The biggest reason is HaShem's will. Its going to sound like a cop out, but if He wants something that way it will be that way, regardless of what human logic and often ignorance thinks should happen. It may not make sense to us, it may be a paradox, but the universe is full of them and this one won't be the last.

Probably the second biggest reason is our free will. HaShem lets the entire life of a person pan out. A single person's life is filled with what some call the Butterfly Effect. Everything a person does will impact their world and other people's lives in ways they cannot perceive or understand. They don't know this, but HaShem knows this. So in their free will a person serve's HaShem's will as well.

There could be other reasons, but the last one I will mention is the infintesimal nature of our world. We are so minute, like snowflakes on the surface of the sun, that allowing the humans to be filtered through the process of life is of zero strain on HaShem. This is a matter of our perspective versus His perspective.

In our perspective we are living our daily lives, we are are subject to space and more importantly time. So we feel, we see, we remember, we learn, and so forth from this world in our lives. To us it seems like forever. Thousands of years seem like an eternity. We are finite and subjective creatures who experience time and space. So we complain from our position within why this or that?

Beyond our cosmic horizon is Hashem. For Him our lives, our civilizations, and our world could have already been and gone. Our existence and our reality from His perspective would not be subject to time and space. What we experienced over thousands of years, He experienced without being subject to time. Everything that we have done or will ever do all happened in an instant. Only in our subjective and finite existence do we experience linear time. For the Supreme Being, space and time have no meaning.

These ideas taken together help form a bigger picture. We don't have the whole picture, but I think we can form a big enough picture to give some good hypothetical answers to some questions about reality and our position within it.

[edit on 5/7/10 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst

There is no hell, god does not judge, and the Christian interpetation of the bible if far from the truth.

And this belief of yours, it's based on what?

Originally posted by adjensen
First, Christ, and a belief in Christ, is the tool by which we are reconciled to God.

WRONG!!!

do not pass go
do not collect $200
go straight to jail

it isn't what YOU do or believe or think or anything!
not you or any other christian!
not ever.
it's all GOD's doing:

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2 Corinthians 5:18)

taking the above sentence, word by word, according to the original meaning in the Greek text, we have the actual word meanings in brackets following the original text:

And [and]
all things [all, any, every, the whole]
of [from, out of]
God [Theos]
who hath reconciled [to change mutually]
us [us]
to himself [to himself]
by [through, as in the channel of the act]
Jesus [the salvation of the self-existent]
Christ [the anointed]
and [also, too, moreover, in addition]
hath given [assigned, delegated]
to us [for, with, or by us]
the [the]
ministry [attendance, service as in literally to wait upon as a servant ]
of reconciliation [adjustment, restoration, *atonement*]

do you see what Paul is saying?

that GOD took on both his side as well as man's side and made a change of some sort to fix the rift that was the natural result of creating us, as humanity.
usually when there is a rift between two parties, both must act to reconcile their differences - but not in this case!
GOD did his side and YOUR side and my side and every single human being's side...

GOD made sure that we won't be separated from the place of our mutual origin, even though our very existence caused what might have been an otherwise unconquerable estrangement.

notice that last word: atonement

AT ONE MENT

if you can read Paul without any preconceptions or indoctrination, there is a surprise there, for anyone. the stuff that seems chauvinistic or puritan or just plain don't make sense - just ignore it - it's not important.

what's important is that Paul is trying to thoroughly explain that there IS life after death, for everyone, and that there is NO sin to be judged against any soul - at all, and that the PRIME DIRECTIVE of the christian is to share this wonderful liberating news with whomever will listen, especially those who seek or who fear GOD, death, or whatever.

That is what Christian theology teaches. If you don't want to accept his salvation, you are welcome to try to gain it on your own, but our faith says that you will not be able to do that.

right.
so instead of doing what GOD appointed you to do, which was to SERVE others with the news that there's nothing to fear, not even death because it is just a transitory state that holds no threat of punishment, condemnation, or shame!

to get on your knees and wash your neighbors feet, slowly and sweetly telling them how they need not fear GOD, whether or not they are able to believe in either GOD or Christ - because it's not human belief that makes this guarantee of life possible but the FAITH of JESUS - not faith as in belief but in the sense of being RELIABLE, trustworthy - doing what he said he'd do, which was to defeat death, with GOD's power which is life and love.

Secondly, you throw out some vague notion of doing good, without any notion of how you might quantify that. Is living our lives for ourselves, and throwing money to a beggar once in a while good enough?

that means nothing if you do not love your neighbors as well as your enemies.
that's all you gotta do.
love, love, love.

That's helping people, isn't it?

sure
but why not help with the ultimate goal which is liberation from FEAR?
by knowing and spreading the truth as GOD gave it to you, through Jesus...not your religion or your theologians or your "faith."

adding to the fear and confusion is NOT helpful and is not justified by giving alms, and that is more or less the effect of your religion on those who do not share in it.

you see it every day here at ATS and BTS...but you fight it instead of fix it!

Your friend who was in the Peace Corps, he sacrificed a lot of things to help out others, can you expect to be judged similarly when you didn't do that? How does any of that stack up to one who truly gives their entire life to others, like Mother Theresa?

who cares how one life stacks up against the other?
GOD isn't making comparisons between individual souls deliberately created unique, each and every one.
there is but one thing that matters now and that is LOVE

the enemy of fear is love
love will be the victor whether christianity participates, or not!

Get this through your head... in the Christian faith, you CANNOT be saved by your own works. Period.

yet if you don't love, by choice and through actions, you won't have much when you get to the other side. you will barely have your soul, but your soul you will have, just like everyone else that GOD created, separated, and reconciled back to GOD.

If you don't accept that, then you are not a Christian

well said.
that's precisely WHY i am NOT a christian, and never have been, and never will be.

Whether you think that's fair or unfair doesn't make any difference.

why?
isn't GOD fair and just?
isn't GOD the epitome of righteousness?
your god doesn't seem to be but the true GOD is.
the same GOD, for everyone who believes in GOD, no matter by what name.

I have already told you that there are some Christian sects that have beliefs that allow for second chances, but they all still require that you accept Christ's sacrifice for you, because that's the avenue you must follow to be reconciled to God.

there is no avenue to follow - it's all been taken care of, on our behalf, and there is nothing we can do for or against it. and the idea of "longsuffering" allows for as many chances as are needed so that no one is left behind.

it's not up to humanity to "accept" a sacrifice - remember in the temple sacrifices of the ancient Hebrews, the determining factor of whether or not a sacrifice was accepted was through a divine thread - meaning that if GOD accepts it, it is accepted. it's not our call.

If you believe in God, and believe in heaven, but don't want to accept Christ,

to "accept" Christ is simply to let him into your head and your heart to guide you and keep you from being alone. no spirit can or will enter the abode of the soul of another without an invite.

and by the Jewish faith, unless you are Jewish by birth, you're also out of luck.

not so. if one converts to Judaism, they are just as much as Jew as one who is born a Jew.

Maddogkull has told you about what has been discovered through the thousands, if not millions, of NDE accounts, the number of which grows daily.

no one has ever met a GOD who is unfair, vengeful, or judgmental.
in fact, most only meet Jesus, if even that.
often it is relatives who are already there, waiting to escort the soul to their life review, whose purpose is to help the soul in their next incarnation to not hurt others in the same way by literally putting themselves into the heart and feelings of everyone ever encountered and affected one way or the other.

except for the occasional rogue whose experience was so dominated by their encompassing abnormal fear, there is one thing that is consistent in every report - the overwhelming feeling of perfect love and of being accepted without even a hint of recrimination or criticism for ANYTHING that comes up in the life review.

it's hard to deny that kind of consistency. this is a depth of love that is rarely experienced on earth so i can't see how they'd be making it up. so many are changed that it can't be a ruse or mass hysteria.

and the idea that it is GOD somehow playing charades is basically selling out what truly is magnanimosity of the highest order, and such a wonderful truth it can be overpowering to the heart...in favor of the negative things about GOD that you believe through your religion.

why would you choose a mean and unfair petty deity with not even a fraction of the power that has been claimed by the prophets and no regard for keeping his word...when you can have love so sweet that it can break your heart and true freedom from all mortal fear?

and even if that is your freely made choice, why try to make others choose the same when there is something far better that isn't confusing, contradictory, or scary????

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Why so? If god CREATED EVIL is he not RESPONSIBLE for it? If he made the DEVIL and let him CORRUPT our souls is he not to blame? Maybe it is YOU who are short-sighted and foolish. My analogy works it just pummels your concepts.


Omnipotence does in fact hold god responsible for he cannot possibly be benevolent in all aspects if he has the power to abolish evil and in fact partakes in committing evil himself . Read the "Old Testament and the New it is all there for your soon to be teary eyes to read.

Instead of writin off a post with no rebuttal and just make a silly claim about its poster try and show some intelligence instead of fallacious tantrums.

There's no rebuttal, because, again, your argument is nonsensical. According to Jewish tradition, Satan and his fellow demons are "fallen angels", creations of God, yes, but distorted creations who chose (that pesky free will again) to revolt from God's way and seek their own. Arrogance, once again.

If you want to say that free will is inherently evil, I suppose that you might have a point (though I'm not sure that I would agree with you,) but to say that God intended for people (and angels) to make bad choices if he gave them that option is a bit of a stretch. I reiterate that he's probably pretty disappointed every time one of us lets him down by choosing to be selfish or uncaring.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Excellent post, though one thing that I'd point out is that, by the time of Christ, the Jewish law of adhering to God was WAY out of "basic" and filled with so many add-ons that I doubt too many people were capable, much less willing, to fulfill it all.

The most beautiful thing about Christianity, in my opinion, was Christ's refocus on the only two things that were important -- love of God and love of God's creation.

reply to post by adjensen

This is getting way out of the scope of the original thread, but the blessing of forgiveness applies here. There are three relationships in your example... your relationship to God, your relationship to the person that you injured, and his relationship to God. You can reconcile your relationship pieces, both to God, and to him, but you can't reconcile his to you, and his to God. You ask for forgiveness from God, it is granted. You ask for forgiveness from him, it is up to him to grant or deny it, but that is irrelevant -- if you are truly remorseful and contrite, your role in this is over.

It doesn't matter what his relationship to god is, you harmed him that creates a debt. Does a Just God simply so to bad so sad to the injured and Absolve the guilty?

Nothing in Christianity says that you've got some sort of karmic debt to this person,

Oh contraire my friend the bible does indeed teach the law of karma, how about ""Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."
Galatians 6:7,9

Also cast your bread upon the waters and it will return to you a hundred fold, and no one gets out without paying the uttermost farthing parable. And of course Does not Christianity teach to make restitution to those you wrong? and also Luke 19:7-9 and so on...

though your contriteness would commonly go beyond a simple "oops, sorry about that". If this person refuses to forgive you, and harbours an anger, that is ultimately between him and God, and you're not really a part of that -- it's his choice to refuse to forgive you, and he'll need to sort that out with God at some point.

We all reap what we sow your debt is not repaid just from forgiveness you must restore that which was taken or damaged also.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by queenannie38


Thanks for adding to this thread... But I can't agree with your interpretation of Paul's letter to the Corinthians. If one starts with a belief and then attempts to find scripture to support it, that's not too difficult, but if one starts with scripture and builds a belief around it, something quite different emerges.

There is nothing in the gospels, and little anywhere else, that supports your perspective that Christ is irrelevant to your relationship with God. A characteristic of scripture is that much of it can be interpreted in different manners, but logic dictates that, if our interpretation of a particular passage results in a significantly different view of God than everything else, that interpretation is probably wrong.

If you wish to dismiss Christ's role in your relationship to God, I would suggest you look for support in places other than the Pauline letters of the New Testament.

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by adjensen

 

This is getting way out of the scope of the original thread, but the blessing of forgiveness applies here. There are three relationships in your example... your relationship to God, your relationship to the person that you injured, and his relationship to God. You can reconcile your relationship pieces, both to God, and to him, but you can't reconcile his to you, and his to God. You ask for forgiveness from God, it is granted. You ask for forgiveness from him, it is up to him to grant or deny it, but that is irrelevant -- if you are truly remorseful and contrite, your role in this is over.

It doesn't matter what his relationship to god is, you harmed him that creates a debt. Does a Just God simply so to bad so sad to the injured and Absolve the guilty?

Nothing in Christianity says that you've got some sort of karmic debt to this person,

Oh contraire my friend the bible does indeed teach the law of karma, how about ""Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."
Galatians 6:7,9

Also cast your bread upon the waters and it will return to you a hundred fold, and no one gets out without paying the uttermost farthing parable. And of course Does not Christianity teach to make restitution to those you wrong? and also Luke 19:7-9 and so on...

Sorry, "karma" implies some sort of justice applied by the Universe in general for our misdeeds, and this is not a part of Christian theology. The passage in Galatians refers to sowing to the flesh, rather than sowing to the spirit.

Justice is meted out by God, not by some abstract force of the Universe. If you do bad things, don't expect God to reward you with blessings. Maybe you're associating that with karma, but it's not really the same thing.

If my neighbour does something that damages me, the God of the New Testament tells me to forgive him and move on from whatever it is. Nothing else. Doesn't say he owes me, doesn't say I should give him the same damage, just says I should say "no worries" and move on. That's not karma.

here is the mother lode of NDE accounts, correlations, questions, answers, etc.
anything to do with NDE's can probably be found at this site: www.nderf.org

i started reading this page, a big pile up of numbers they've done with all the data collected through first hand accounts of NDE's, in regard to emotions felt during and after the event.

it gets a little murky but if you like or can relate to that kind of thing, it does give somewhat of an overview of the phenomenon, as experienced through those who have had a verified (medically supported in writing/medical records) NDE.

i think the name Near Death Experience is somewhat misleading!
something like Brief Death Experience or Temporary Death Experience, maybe?

BDE
TDE

just sayin'

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

Excellent post, though one thing that I'd point out is that, by the time of Christ, the Jewish law of adhering to God was WAY out of "basic" and filled with so many add-ons that I doubt too many people were capable, much less willing, to fulfill it all.

The most beautiful thing about Christianity, in my opinion, was Christ's refocus on the only two things that were important -- love of God and love of God's creation.

What in the Torah was too difficult for the people? Bear in mind the Torah is for Israel and Israel is to be a light unto the world.

Much of the Torah applies to ceremonial rites and restrictions for the Levites, the Tabernacle, and a type of theocratic civil code.

Most of that cannot be applicable since the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel, the destruction of the Temple, and the Diaspora.

Jesus never said he came to destroy the Torah. The Apostles preached the Noahide laws to the Gentiles. In effect they may have introduced a Covenant of Melchizedek to Gentiles, as I'm pretty sure Melchizedek would have taught the Noachide laws as well.

The Roman church quickly diverted from this thought and introduced their own versions of the Halakha in the forms of dogma, canon law, creeds, catechism, etc.

That Christian Halakha dominates practically every church up to this day.
Whats your opinion on that? Jesus taught a divided house cannot stand, yet Christianity has had so many schisms over extra biblical law, they now exist in hundreds of denominations and sects.

They seem to of gotten away from Jesus' teachings.

I should note when I say Roman, I mean all the churches of the Roman Empire, which includes the Catholic, Coptic, Eastern Orthodox, and Assyrian churches.



[edit on 5/7/10 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Far too much of the Torah became admonitions that were relevant to man, but irrelevant to man's relation to God.

Does God care if you eat pork? Probably not. But in a society that doesn't know from trichinosis, most likely a good idea to avoid it.

If you review the Ten Commandments critically, Jesus' admonition to love God and love all people pretty much covers it. If you love your neighbour, you're not likely to envy or steal his tv. If you love God, not so likely to ignore what he has to say.

Christ said he did not come to refute the law, but to fulfill it. I think that a critical review of what he did and what he said demonstrates that.

This reminds me of how I thought when I used to ask myself "If God exists, all powerful, omnipotent, and good", how come so many terrible things happen in the world. From the countless abuses on children to the horrific deaths some have had to face, how can a God that's 'good' allow a child to be raped or a mother to be slaughtered. I can't believe in an all 'good' God without accepting the fact that so many terrible things occur on a daily basis on our planet. So if God created everything, and created evil, then evil is an manifestation of God that God allowed to exist.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
They seem to of gotten away from Jesus' teachings.

Amen to that. I spent a fair amount of time thinking about this very subject -- whether we had entered a state of apostasy, but concluded that the church was still largely representative of Christ's mission. A perfect representation? No, probably not. But the closest that we can expect to find on Earth.

To adjensen and other Christians...

What people need to be saying is, that there is no God that can possibly logically exist from within or without your scriptures without you constantly making changes or interpretations of what said scriptures are telling you.

The real gist of this argument is the fact that the present christianity will never satisfy you, will always leave you wanting more, lucky for you they have prepared you for that by telling you that is just how it is.

I grew up with parents and family heavily involved in the church, and from the age of 4 inherently knew something was wrong,

You present good arguments from within the box of your scripture, but that unfortunately cannot absolve the ridiculous nature of it all, i will say this, there is and never was a god in the format that you think, this is why you are locked in a battle that can never be won,

Too say that not believing in religion or the scriptures is too not believe in anything is entirely false, however since you have it in your programming to believe that it has to be this certain way , that is the way you must think about such information.

I do not think it will be long before every piece of Christianity will be challenged , sad that you will cling to your doctrine even harder then since you will feel it to be an attack on you and your "salvation".

The belief that you even need to be saved is proof enough of a very fearful mentality that has been besieged upon us.

Demolition of the fear must take place...the realization of a much larger reality will be revealed, and i am sorry to say, but Christianity is entirely based on fear, there is no way around it...to ensure you never fully realize yourself spiritually is the goal.

Maybe you could attempt to read a book like The Second Coming of Christ which is far more accurate in description with the actual teachings of Jesus...

You will find it much more revealing and satisfying...provided you can separate yourself from the fear of "God" that will certainly crush you for daring to look outside from your engrained view... i know it took me awhile as well, but i was lucky, i already knew so much of it was completely out of line.

I will not attack christians but the book they believe to be telling them the truth is clearly far over there own heads and very heavily a mixture of many beliefs and myth of sorts.

I no longer even feel sad when they try to pray for me or desperately call on there god to convince me to "turn back to god" it is my job to show them that god is not existent in a belief of Jesus dying on a cross, but to have them LIVE what he said to do , as others have, and of which not a one christian currently even tries to attempt, because of fear and because of worship of this man as if he is a deity that needs worship, he actually would rather hang out with you, alas noone fully does.

end rant/ :d

Originally posted by adjensen
Thanks for adding to this thread... But I can't agree with your interpretation of Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

i knew you wouldn't. but that's okay!
thank you for reading my overly-long post.

If one starts with a belief and then attempts to find scripture to support it, that's not too difficult, but if one starts with scripture and builds a belief around it, something quite different emerges.

well, i did neither. all i know is what i've been shown by GOD...and Jesus!

There is nothing in the gospels, and little anywhere else, that supports your perspective that Christ is irrelevant to your relationship with God.

no, you totally misunderstand me on that point. i never meant to imply that Christ is not important; at least to me, Jesus is everything.

what i was trying to convey is that it is all from GOD - everything even that Jesus did, he did by the power of GOD. GOD is the ultimate. he is the one who reconciled us back to source, GOD our Creator. Jesus would even tell you that he did not do anything on his own but rather acted in GOD's stead according to what GOD had him to do.

and truly, it isn't our belief or faith or anything like that, that accomplishes any part of it. it is GOD's will through the faith (trustworthiness) of Jesus that accomplished reconciliation.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
(Romans 3:3)

for what if some did not believe? should their lack of belief make the constancy of GOD powerless/naught?

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(Romans 3:22)

even the fairness/equity of GOD, through the constancy/reliability of Jesus unto ALL - to believe or not believe makes no difference!

A characteristic of scripture is that much of it can be interpreted in different manners, but logic dictates that, if our interpretation of a particular passage results in a significantly different view of God than everything else, that interpretation is probably wrong.

perhaps. i don't judge on those criterion. if GOD teaches me, then it doesn't matter if it is the only version of itself in the world, i trust it as true. i trust GOD.

but i am not alone in certain of these understandings, although definitely not in the mainstream.

and it just occurred to me...perhaps that is the definition of the narrow way?
i don't know.
just musing.

If you wish to dismiss Christ's role in your relationship to God, I would suggest you look for support in places other than the Pauline letters of the New Testament.

well, i think i've cleared that up, i hope.

however, i don't look to the bible to support my relationship with Jesus and GOD - i look to them!

reply to post by adjensen


Uncleanliness and ritual purification is very important in the relationship between humanity and HaShem.

I take it you don't believe in ablution or baptism then?

Dietary purity and ritual purity are practically universal among all major faiths: Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and some sects of Christianity.

Also what is your opinion of the whole text in Matthew 5: 17-20

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven

Wow, I didn't expect alot of responses to this thread! Thanks for all of the opinions, and personal insights on the matter! I was raised in a Christian home, and observed several moments that left me scratching my head.

For example, I have seen countless times where a group of kids (3-5 years of age) went before the church, and stated they became saved because "they didn't want to go to hell." How sad.. First off, to promote children to make a decision that they have NO concept of is wrong. Plus, they have no want for personal/spiritual growth, but only fear for burning alive for eternity.

In my mind, the church has completely missed the point of the Bible or any meaning behind God. Instead of looking at the Bible as a starting point, or the tip of the iceberg, they have become obsessed with the small/minute details which then contradicts the bigger picture. I can honestly say that Christians are the BIGGEST form of the scum bags and hypocrites, and that’s why the world looks down at them.

My personal opinion about religion is to love life, love/forgive others, and to raise children to love others. No one is perfect or can live life w/o sinning. God knows this, and wants us to except it. No matter if a Christian or not, we will sin to the day we die. Get over it, b/c according to the Bible, God already has.

reply to post by orionthehunter


I think we are much more powerful spiritual beings than we've been led to believe. Perhaps this is the secret that a handful of people are privy to that keeps us from understanding what we really are and what we can do.

Personally, I don't believe anyone is going to burn in hell. I think hell is what we create in our own mind...sometimes that's as bad as a burning hell for some. It seems to me that there are laws of the universe (better known as "karma") that even all the scores at some point for every act, good or bad.

The whole idea that a loving, tolerant, forgiving God would cast his creations into eternal flames is too contradictory to be believed. I don't think any of us knows the truth about God. All we can really do is listen to what our spirit tells us, I think that's the voice of God that will keep us going in the right direction.

One thing I have no doubt about, though is this: things are definitely not what they seem in this life.

God created all things good and evil. All will go back to source. Even me (jerk) and the jerks who repond here. So it is said. See ya in the next life.

Originally posted by adjensen
God has unconditional love for all of us. Unconditional means that there is nothing that you can do to make him love you more, nothing you can do to make him love you less. He wants you to love him, too, but he's not going to force you to do so, that's the free will bit.

that is not " unconditional " by any accepted definition

` worship me or go to hell ` is not unconditional love - it is blackmail

also - please look up " coersion " , in summary

god : love me
ignorant ape - why ?
god - if you dont you go to hell

i dont want that kind of love