Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

reply to post by PuterMan


"When I die I shall be wafted away to the Great Hemp Patch"

Classic.

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


God is infinite. God is everything. Everything = infinite.

Therefore, every experience is allowed, and can occur.

reply to post by LiteraryOneTwo

but the concept of Love is a universal truth, and the most important command God gave is for mankind to love one another...

but the concept of Love is a universal truth, and the most important command God gave is for mankind to love one another...

That's better. Otherwise, great post.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by PuterMan

 

Is the essence of your argument that our beliefs form reality? That if I dream up a religion with pot-head pixies running the show, and smoking grass and sleeping around are the ways to heaven, when I die, that's what I get?

Wow great where do I sign up?

lol. I cribbed the pot-head pixies from a old progressive rock band, Gong. Here's a video for you, maybe it's a preview of "heaven".

Edit: Lifted from your other reply

We can have our hopes, whether they be "everyone gets to heaven" or "no one stays in hell forever", but until we're there, it's all just speculation, and, sadly, depending on how accurate some Christian views are, it may be too late at that point to say "oops, do-over, please! I want to make another choice!" I certainly hope that is not the case, personally.

Now I think you understand - it's all just speculation,

Pretty much, yeah. Once we hit that great divide, it's uncharted territory. I know what I believe, but whether that belief is valid or faulty won't be shown until I die.

reply to post by adjensen


"If you haven't read it, The Great Divorce, by C.S. Lewis does a great job of portraying this, taking it a step further by setting the story in purgatory, and showing how people can reject God and Christ when all doubt is removed about their existence. Effectively, it just comes down to arrogance and egotism. The whole "it's better to rule in hell than it is to serve in heaven" bit."

Hi adjensen, I can see you have your hands full, being the defender of the faith as it were, and I actually think you do a great job of presenting the orthodox perspective. I don't happen to agree with it, but I do think you can be considered as fairly "representative" of your fellow religionists, for better or for worse.

You mentioned The Great Divorce. Good book, of course, C.S. Lewis was a master. I'm not sure you read the book as he intended however, although perhaps I'm wrong.

You say he set the story in "purgatory"? Well, I know that the Church of England is rather close to Roman Catholicism, but I don't think that's what he was doing really.

It's been many years since I read it, but as I recall, there was no "hell proper". What you saw as "purgatory" was that, and more. Since in his book, the door was always "open" so-to-speak, the deceased would technically never be considered as "damned", and yet, many of them were damned, for all intents and purposes!

If I remember right, there was a reference to Napoleon perhaps (certainly a bad guy to a patriotic Brit like Lewis!). He was a distant "star", enjoying his own self-spun reality as it were. He had spent the past two centuries getting father, and farther away from the "door" (back to Heaven, ultimately). It was insinuated that eventually these distant "stars" would simply be too far away to ever attempt the journey back. They were effectively damned for eternity, but of course, the good God hadn't done it to them, it was their choice!

And now the back story. As most know, C.S. Lewis was a "tortured soul". rumors went around that said he would likely convert to Catholic (he was friends with many of the most prominent English Catholics of the era), he had been on a long road back (so-to-speak), from the atheism of his younger days. He died before it happened, so people are free to speculate about where he was eventually headed, who knows?

But here's the point about much of his work. Lewis was always looking hard for ways to believe the unbelievable. And it wasn't easy! Yes, he re-embraced orthodoxy, historic Christianity, BUT, it only happened after he was sufficiently able to tone down all the absurdity that he had faced, even as an atheist.

Hell, for instance. Apparently, it wasn't exactly a doctrine that could just be left "as-is", and so he put his magnificent intellect to the project and came up with The Great Divorce. Many who had rejected punishment in the afterlife read it, and again believed that it could make sense. But that's just it. The doctrine, as it is, is so hard to believe that it took the mind of the tortured Lewis to come up with something at least plausible.

Is it plausible? Sure, except that we would be missing the point. The "hell doctrine", as it stands, doesn't really seem to work (not even for the great C.S. Lewis!) It's exactly why he penned Divorce, because he personally had to force the square-peg into that perpetually round hole, or else, he might be back to atheism! Taken this way, it sort of defeats your purpose of bringing the story up, because it is in essence just another attempt, by a Christian, to somehow (anyhow!), make the doctrine "real".

My personal theory is that no one (not even you, adjensen) actually believes in the preposterous "Hell" (proper!), and I've posted about some of the reasons why why this may so.

As usual, if I have failed to recall this story properly, please feel free to remind me of what I may have missed. I do not believe in Hell, nor the "Christianity and water" version of it, that Lewis was forced to adopt, as an intellectual. (Forgive my use of his trademark derisive remark...it just seemed to fit. Hope he is not turning over in his grave.)

Good luck to all in this discussion!

JR MacBeth

Given that there's no proof for God's existence, I wouldn't worry too much

There are a LOT of things in the bible that make no sense whatsoever, or things that are outdated by around 2000 years...

The whole "believe or you'll burn in hell" think was created for ONE single reason: TO CONTROL THE MASSES...and it's sadly still working today.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Agreed, people have already presented facts that burning in hell for eternity makes no sense.

reply to post by JR MacBeth


Yes, I consider the story to be purgatorial. I read something by Lewis a while back (or maybe it was biographical) about him leaning toward the more Catholic roots of the Anglican church, while still remaining a member. Perhaps his association with Tolkien prompted that, I don't know.

Anyway, in the story there is an incident where one of the characters has his sin burned off (the lizard that turns into a horse,) exactly as proscribed by Catholic purgatorial doctrine, and I think that the narrator is told that the inhabitants of the city eventually are consigned to oblivion, which implies that the city and the eventual exile are two different places. Maybe levels of hell, but I think that purgatory works better.

No matter, though. It's a good story.

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

The answer is simple. God believes in freedom and free will. God lets you chose to have a relationship with him or reject him and his blessings.

Would a loving God force you to spend eternity in heaven with himself, if you didn't want to have anything to do with him?

Your question "What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible?" has some assumptions, that while they make sense from you experience, aren't necessarily true. There are many stories of God revealing himself to tribes, before missionaries have arrived and even reports recently of Jesus revealing himself to Muslims in dreams resulting in conversions.

Scripture teaches that we are responsible for the knowledge that we have. Arguing that someone else may not have heard the Gospel, will seem kind of flimsy on Judgment Day.

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO



To Keep The Balance

the Question is needed to be asked why did Your God assuming Abraham's God Jew/Christian/Muslim for what reason Kept Lucifer/Satan/Fallen Angel Alive ! and to Control the Underworld

to keep a Balance of the Virtues and Sins of Man

a punishment for an Fallen Angel that Despise A Souled Human and to keep him alive as Lucifer/Satan was the Right Hand Being of God

God has put Lucifer in the realm of the Underworld to select the ones in his realm to come back to the surface! to make a Balance for Souls to have their Chance of Karma to Repeat to know what is Right & Wrong Good or Bad as the Soul Never Dies just a Repetition for right Reputation

The Only Other Animal that is Just Like Us !!! that Kills & Enslave and have a Economical system is Insects do they have Souls ?

Satan's Greeting






Al Pacino Speech on Devil's Advocate



The Devil's Advocate, Devil in the Flesh ( talking about freewill )





[edit on 5-7-2010 by Wolfenz]

[edit on 6-7-2010 by Wolfenz]

reply to post by adjensen


Lets look at the text in context and look at the Greek.

It begins with:

Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

The word in Greek, often translated as unclean, is koinoi. This word means defile or profane. It is not the same as the Greek word for unclean and does not mean the same.

If Jesus had actaully said unclean, Peter would have probably stopped eating Kosher. He didn't though.

The issue was a tradition from the "oral law" which has been collected in the Talmud. Jesus didn't have issues with the Torah. He had issues with the oral tradition which would be later collected in the Talmud.

One of the confusions with modern Christianity is the lack of awareness in the huge difference between the Torah and Talmud. The Torah is the first five books of the Bible, also called the Books of Moses. The ten commandments are just the first ten, there are 613 mitzvah or commandments in the Books of Moses. Most cannot be applied to most Jews due to circumstances of the Diaspora.

One thing to understand is the Torah was given to Moses for Israel and only Israel. This was the big issue as Christianity began to accept gentiles after the crucifixion. The early Church wasn't sure if they had to be Jews to be Christians. The descision was no, gentiles do not have to be Jews to be Christians.

The circumcision is a sign of the Covenant of Abraham. The early church also decided that gentiles do not have to be circumcised to be Christians. This means they don't have to be entered into the Covenants of Abraham or Moses.

Instead it is implied they are entered into the same kind of covenant that HaShem had with Melchizedek, priest of the Most High. The Epistle of Hebrews, further implies this as Jesus is said to be a priest on the Order of Melchizedek.

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5:6-10

The Order of Melchizedek would only be subject to the Laws of Noah.
They are very simple laws and universal among major faiths:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before HaShem.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, anal intercourse between men, and bestiality.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law

All of these are echoed either in the Gospel or the Epistles, by Jesus, the Apostles and Paul.

These are the same laws that gentiles were bound by to live in the Kingdom of Israel in ancient times. They became Ger Toshav, resident aliens among Israel and righteous gentiles.

So for Israel, the Torah is still law. For the children of Abraham, which would include the Arabs, circumcision is still required. (Note: it is practiced among Muslims and Ishmael received his own covenant in Genesis). For gentiles, they likely follow the Order of Melchizedek and are subject to only the Noahide Laws.



[edit on 5/7/10 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by adjensen

Sorry, "karma" implies some sort of justice applied by the Universe in general for our misdeeds, and this is not a part of Christian theology.

Karma is you reap what you sow it is very simple. Not sure where you got your ideas of Christian theology but they indeed teach we reap what we sow both physically and spiritually my friend. Christian theology also teaches God is a just God.

The passage in Galatians refers to sowing to the flesh, rather than sowing to the spirit. Justice is meted out by God, not by some abstract force of the Universe.

God is the universe. Is he not in and through all things as the scriptures teach? Regardless of how you choose to term it, If God is just and everyone is rewarded according to thier works whether they be good or whether they be evil as Christian theology most definitely teaches then we see the law of karma at work here, or cause and effect if you will. Reaping what you sow is cause and affect. If you sow evil that is what you will reap, if you sow good that is what you will reap. Sowing is the cause and reaping is the effect. I am amazed even the most simple Christian might miss or ignore the cause and effect they see working around them every day for it is a most basic principle of the Universe from the lowest to the highest and taught all through out the scriptures and esoteric writings.

If you do bad things, don't expect God to reward you with blessings. Maybe you're associating that with karma, but it's not really the same thing. If my neighbour does something that damages me, the God of the New Testament tells me to forgive him and move on from whatever it is. Nothing else. Doesn't say he owes me, doesn't say I should give him the same damage, just says I should say "no worries" and move on. That's not karma.

Forgiving your neighbor who has harmed you is fine and a good thing however it does not negate the effect he caused to happen especially if you are permanently injured. Justice demands restitution. Can mercy rob justice?

...that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

This is why Christ made such a big deal of it in Luke 19 when the Publican said he would restore any he wronged four fold. If God is a just God as the scriptures claim he is then he will demand justice also. The law of karma is his justice to put it into the modern Christian vernacular and how all is repaid. The Atonement was to release from guilt so men and women could continue their progress instead of being mired in the guilt of their bad deeds. This is the missing link for many modern traditional Christians. Pray about it and ask if it is true?

[edit on 5-7-2010 by hawkiye]

Hell is an invention, a control concept to keep you in line while on Earth. In spirit there is no such place, neither is there an anti-christ in spirit who lords over his subjects.

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by adjensen

 

Sorry, "karma" implies some sort of justice applied by the Universe in general for our misdeeds, and this is not a part of Christian theology.

Karma is you reap what you sow it is very simple. Not sure where you got your ideas of Christian theology but they indeed teach we reap what we sow both physically and spiritually my friend. Christian theology also teaches God is a just God.

If all you mean by this is that we are accountable for our actions, I don't disagree, but I've always thought that karma is much more than that, that it involved reincarnation, for example.

reply to post by adjensen

If all you mean by this is that we are accountable for our actions, I don't disagree, but I've always thought that karma is much more than that, that it involved reincarnation, for example.

It does involve reincarnation as that is the only way justice can be worked out while providing Gods mercy also. The Christian scriptures teach reincarnation also. Even if you don't believe in reincarnation karma is most definitely reaping what you sow.

If you are open to exploring the possibility of reincarnation being taught in the bible then consider reading this: www.freeread.com...

Reincarnation is one of the main missing principles not taught or understood in modern traditional Christianity. Even the symbol of Baptism teaches it.

The Bible is a spiritual book that can only be understood with a persons spirit. Thats what Jesus was talking about when He told Nicodemus "You must be born again or you cannot see the kingdom of heaven. If you try to understand it with your head or human reasoning, you will never get it.
It says in the book of Romans don't know the exact chapter or verse that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Thats why without our accepting God's gift of salvation through Christ's death on the cross we cannot see the kindom of heaven. Paul explains what happens in Galations chapter 2 what happens to us when we accept salvation. "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life that I now live, I live BY FAITH in the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me. People will so often quote John 3:16, but the verse that follows it is just as important. "For God sent not His Son to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might saved.
Its the reason why there were blood sacrifices in the old testament. Because God is so Holy and so pure, He cannot look upon sin. Thats why a lamb was always used for a sacrifice and why Jesus is called the sacrificed lamb. John the Baptist referred to Him as "The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." Some people think that this is cruel, but God is who He is and does not change. Because He is God He can do whatever He wishes weather we like it or not. The bottom line is He has provided the final sacrifice and atonement for our sins through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and we can either accept it or reject it. But He makes it perfectly clear that if you reject it then hell awaits you. Not popular but nevertheless the truth. It is pointless to argue these truths because they are what they are and they are not going to change and so we are confronted with the choice like it or not. Thats why Christianity is so unpopular with so many people, because it is so cut and dried and there are no gray areas. So many people want to believe that there are other ways to God. But Jesus came along and said in the book of John again don't know the exact chapter and verse, "I AM the way, the truth and the life and no man can come to the Father but through me. I AM the gate for the sheep, anyone who tries to get in any other way, is a thief and a robber." And please don't shoot the messenger. If you want to learn more I suggest you read the book of John and the book of Hebrews. Jesus said more then once "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

God knows All paths because he made them All.

It is up to you to decide which path you want to take (free will).

God, the Universe, LIFE, warns us... if you take the wrong path it leads to a hellish place. This is without error, certain, and most true, both in the physical reality, and beyond.

Would you like some examples?

*editing to add more

The question I think the OP should be asking is, "Why does God allow the existence of all paths?"

I think that is an easy one to answer.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by eennoo]

I only read the first page so I'll admit not going through each response. I believe Hell is not a literal place of eternal torment. To believe in God and believe he would allow such a place is contradictory to how God operates. Does he punish? Sure he does, that is quite clear. He punishes even to the point of death. But eternal damnation, I think not. Hell is figurative for eternal death, i.e. death with no hope of eternal life.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by IamMe14]

reply to post by hawkiye


This is my personal opinion.

I think reincarnation is a misinterpretation.

When a human comes into existence, its due to the Breath of Life from HaShem entering the dust. The combination of that dust and breath is a unique Nephesh.

When a person dies, the dust returns to the earth, and the breath returns to HaShem. The unique consciousness or personality goes to "sleep", a state of unconsciouness called Sheol.

The breath reunites with the Ruach of HaShem, like a breath returning to the air. It disperses.

Then another human is about to come into existence, HaShem gives them the Breath of Life. The breath has recycled.

The Buddhist view of rebirth is very similar to this. In this sense the Breath of Life is recycled, but the unique personality created from the combination of dust and breath is different.

The Dalai Lama performed a very good analogy of this with fire, using a candle. He lit one candle with another and blew the other candle out. The flames are connected but different. He said this is how Buddhism views reincarnation. The Buddhist word for the concept is "evolving or streaming consciousness".

In my view, each of the unique Nepheshim produced by the recycling of the Neshama (breath), will be ressurrected during the Last Judgement.

There are a number of implications if the breath is recycled.
1. We are all linked in some manner by our "breath" or spirit.
2. The breath functions like a spiritual DNA that we inherit and pass on.
3. We have spiritual relatives, distinct from our physical relatives.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
Who knows the god of the bible might be real, but not exactly how they portray him in the bible. Remember the bible was written by man. Men make A LOT of mistakes. A god would not send a good person to hell because he did not believe in a guy who existed 2000 years ago. That would defeat the perfectness of god. Honestly I believe in the god of karma. Hell is subjective. If you are a good person you would not go to hell, if you are a bad person you will go to hell. I also read that eternity was originally translated from "eon". Meaning that no one stay in hell "forever" but for a period of time, i they did bad things.

there's also reason to believe that hell is merely non existance, dieing, not becoming spirit or anything and going anywhere, just dieing and thats it...that's the hell i lean towards believing exists...