Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

For the sake of argument I will assume that god exists.

Now, hell is though to be a place void of the presence of god. A place a pain and suffering and weeping and gnashing of teeth. Answer me this. If god=existence and without god nothing exists, has does hell lack god's presence? If hell were to have god's presence, then hell must be good at some level, because it is said god is good. To think that hell is good by any definition is quite sadistic.

I think if there is a god, then he is a selfish self absorbed person to send someone to hell for not believing in him. So if he does exist he gave us free will. Therefore it would be up to us to choose whether or not we believe in him. But to punish us for not doing so, cmon, isn't that a little juvenile.
Like I said, If there is a god, egotistical maniac.

reply to post by adjensen


Agreed Thanks for the debate haha

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/081748eec552.png[/atsimg]
reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO



i'm responding to the question in the title.
if you don't like it, shoot me.


me


because god is alone, perhaps.
because everyone fears god
because god doesn't what to be feared.
because fear does not want to see god

one god?

hell is alone. hell is alone for ever.
god is alone. one of a kind and god is alone forever?

god cannot accept being feared
fear cannot stop fearing god

i think.

thougtht i would share,
ET

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by Destiny Curious
I think if there is a god, then he is a selfish self absorbed person to send someone to hell for not believing in him. So if he does exist he gave us free will. Therefore it would be up to us to choose whether or not we believe in him. But to punish us for not doing so, cmon, isn't that a little juvenile.
Like I said, If there is a god, egotistical maniac.

If you had a child, and you told him "do your chores, study your homework and I'll give you chocolate ice cream", would you give him the ice cream anyway if he didn't do the chores, skipped the homework, and told you to get bent?

God has given you very clear, and very simple guidelines for how he'd like you to live your life. Even if you've never read the Bible, you came to this thread, and you've seen it... accept Christ's gift, love God like he loves you, and love everyone else and treat them the way that you want to be treated.

If you don't do that, you're acting the same way as the child that wants the ice cream, but can't be bothered to do what's been asked of them.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by adjensen]

reply to post by adjensen


You mean the Nicene Council has given us clear instructions on what they think should be done based on a compilation of works from like minded individuals cherry picked by men for their own purpose. To think god wrote any part of the bible is to equate men with god and you just committed your own form of blasphemy.

Originally posted by ninthaxis
reply to post by adjensen

 

You mean the Nicene Council has given us clear instructions on what they think should be done based on a compilation of works from like minded individuals cherry picked by men for their own purpose. To think god wrote any part of the bible is to equate men with god and you just committed your own form of blasphemy.

I'm pretty sure that, if you read what I wrote, I specifically said that God did NOT write the Bible.

If you dismiss the whole of the Bible, and the whole of organized religion, because people had something to do with it, you're effectively saying that we can never have any relationship with God, so any discussion of the matter is irrelevant.

reply to post by adjensen


Then where are these very clear defined set of rules that you mention that god gave us? If a guy named John or Luke comes up to me and gives me a letter and says god told them to write it for him, they would be turned away. To say that any man is to be trusted in the writing of your scriptures and to also believe in original sin are very contradictory beliefs in the nature of man that you need to rectify.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Destiny Curious
I think if there is a god, then he is a selfish self absorbed person to send someone to hell for not believing in him. So if he does exist he gave us free will. Therefore it would be up to us to choose whether or not we believe in him. But to punish us for not doing so, cmon, isn't that a little juvenile.
Like I said, If there is a god, egotistical maniac.

If you had a child, and you told him "do your chores, study your homework and I'll give you chocolate ice cream", would you give him the ice cream anyway if he didn't do the chores, skipped the homework, and told you to get bent?

God has given you very clear, and very simple guidelines for how he'd like you to live your life. Even if you've never read the Bible, you came to this thread, and you've seen it... accept Christ's gift, love God like he loves you, and love everyone else and treat them the way that you want to be treated.

If you don't do that, you're acting the same way as the child that wants the ice cream, but can't be bothered to do what's been asked of them.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by adjensen]

Yeah, but you're kid can see you and directly interact with you. Most "disenchanted" believer I know view him as a bastard father and honestly, I can't blame them.

Even if the child did ALL of that and much worse, would you punish him for ETERNITY or would you CORRECT him? Don't give me the whole "chance" garbage either because you and I both know any good parent wouldn't give up on their child...how much more of a loving parent is God? Or is he trumped by us humans in the mercy and grace department? Luckily, I don't think that is the case...

[edit on 5-7-2010 by SmokeandShadow]

reply to post by ninthaxis


Luke 10:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Not sure how much clearer than that you want him to be.

reply to post by SmokeandShadow


You're saying that you need to see and feel God's presence to take his suggestions seriously. I can understand that, but that isn't what he presents to us.

It is likely that, at the point of judgement, it is too late for "correction." You've already lived your life, shown your disregard for God's plan, and done whatever you damn well pleased. To correct you would require sending you back to try again, and there's no support for that in Christian theology.

I don't think that there is anything in my belief system that says that God feels anything other than horrible grief at a person's decision to reject him, but giving you free will means giving you enough rope to hang yourself.

reply to post by adjensen


Too bad your god is from the New and Old testament and therefore is bound to those books and what they say . Read my previous posts and actually read what nastiness is committed by your god and ask yourself if he is suited to judge anybody. Assuming that this god exists in the first place.

This is simple, either he /it doesn't exist , doesn't have sufficient power to correct evil, or is evil itself.


According to the Bible he himself is the master of evil and sin. He banishes Satan, whom he created, sends him to Earth, then lets him poison our souls with desire and evil (he made us weak to sin ) , then in god's infinite wisdom , blames US for it all.

(analogy)
That is like a human walking down a road with a rabid dog, releasing it knowing it will do terrible harm , then the dog kills an infant while it;s parents are walking down the street. Now instead of blaming the dog or its owner , according to gods rules in the bible , the Parents would be blamed and sent to hell (or jail)!!!

[edit on 5-7-2010 by IamBoon]

reply to post by adjensen

One key difference, even setting aside what Christ said, is that the other prophets were persecuted for what they said about others, while Christ was persecuted for what he said about himself. But the bottom line is that, unlike John the Baptist, who was quick to point out that he was not the Christ, Jesus flat out said that he was. If you want to degrade him to be a mere prophet, that's your business, but I personally see no benefit in it.

I don't think that is a degradation at all and as I said he is one of greatest if not thee greatest. However the standard Christian black and white belief of the atonement over simplifies things. Lets say you get drunk and you go and drive and get in an accident and hurt some innocent person. This person looses a limb. You ask Christ for forgiveness and feel he has forgiven you yet this person now has to go through life and all its trials plus those that the missing limb causes. How did the atonement repay the debt you owe this person? Did it restore the person to wholeness? No it did not all it did was absolve you of your guilt so you can move on with your life and learn the lessons you need to learn but you still owe a debt for the harm you caused in that persons life which will be repaid eventually in your life or a future life.



[edit on 5-7-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by adjensen

 

One key difference, even setting aside what Christ said, is that the other prophets were persecuted for what they said about others, while Christ was persecuted for what he said about himself. But the bottom line is that, unlike John the Baptist, who was quick to point out that he was not the Christ, Jesus flat out said that he was. If you want to degrade him to be a mere prophet, that's your business, but I personally see no benefit in it.

I don't think that is a degradation at all and as I said he is one of greatest if not thee greatest. However the standard Christian black and white belief of the atonement over simplifies things. Lets say you get drunk and you go and drive and get in an accident and hurt some innocent person. This person looses a limb. You ask Christ for forgiveness and feel he has forgiven you yet this person now has to go through life and all its trials plus those that the missing limb causes. How did the atonement repay the debt you owe this person? Did it restore the person to wholeness? No it did not all it did was absolve you of your guilt so you can move on with your life and learn the lessons you need to learn but you still owe a debt for the harm you caused in that persons life which will be repaid eventually in your life or a future life.



[edit on 5-7-2010 by hawkiye]

This is getting way out of the scope of the original thread, but the blessing of forgiveness applies here. There are three relationships in your example... your relationship to God, your relationship to the person that you injured, and his relationship to God. You can reconcile your relationship pieces, both to God, and to him, but you can't reconcile his to you, and his to God.

You ask for forgiveness from God, it is granted. You ask for forgiveness from him, it is up to him to grant or deny it, but that is irrelevant -- if you are truly remorseful and contrite, your role in this is over. Nothing in Christianity says that you've got some sort of karmic debt to this person, though your contriteness would commonly go beyond a simple "oops, sorry about that".

If this person refuses to forgive you, and harbours an anger, that is ultimately between him and God, and you're not really a part of that -- it's his choice to refuse to forgive you, and he'll need to sort that out with God at some point.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by SmokeandShadow

 

You're saying that you need to see and feel God's presence to take his suggestions seriously. I can understand that, but that isn't what he presents to us.

It is likely that, at the point of judgement, it is too late for "correction." You've already lived your life, shown your disregard for God's plan, and done whatever you damn well pleased. To correct you would require sending you back to try again, and there's no support for that in Christian theology.

I don't think that there is anything in my belief system that says that God feels anything other than horrible grief at a person's decision to reject him, but giving you free will means giving you enough rope to hang yourself.

What there is no support for is an eternal hell, you should go to bible-truths.com and read up. The word "hell" itself is a quagmire of misinformation. There are MANY verses which support the teaching that ALL people will be saved and cannot be explained away.


"Jesus "gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due season" (1Tim. 2:6), and that although all are now dying in Adam, "so in Christ will all be made alive--but each in his own order" (1Cor. 15:22-28.) "

You could whip out the "cut off you're arm" parable verses or something from revelation (a book of symbols) to justify hell, but I would then have to wonder why you would go out of you're way to justify eternal damnation and suffering instead of a victorious God.




[edit on 5-7-2010 by SmokeandShadow]

This is quite an interesting debate here and I am happy to see that it is a civil discussion without flaming or immature nonsense for the most part.

With the child thing, that is close to how I interpret it except your parents don't offer you eternal life. They offer you ice cream, a new video game, a baseball mitt or whatever the child is into. If you misbehave, you go to your room or you can't watch TV or play video games or maybe you don't get to go drive go-karts this weekend. God offers something eternal and draws a clear path to obtain that free gift. It only makes sense to me that the other side of the coin is also something eternal, in this case damnation. I don't think God wants to send anyone to hell. As a matter of fact, I think it hurts him greatly when it comes to that for anyone. He wants to give us as much time as possible to repent and accept him into our hearts because he doesn't want that to happen.

I was an athiest until I was 19 years old and I always kind of chuckle to myself when I see athiests demand proof before they can believe because I got the proof six times (knew future events before they occured) without ever asking for it VIA the bible code. It took all six times to get me to completely change sides too and quite frankly, I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen and experienced it with my own eyes. God came and snatched me out of the devil's claws and I consider that a miracle because it would have taken nothing short of what I experienced to make me a believer, but that's quite a long story. I don't think anything will ever get me to change sides again, but the demanding proof thing never made sense to me. If God gave everyone proof, that defeats the concept of faith.

I read an article on ATS a couple weeks ago that suggested there were two kinds of athiests: the kind that demand proof and the kind who believe in God, but hate and blame him for all the ails of the world. I definitely fell into the second catagory though that is really only in retrospect. I don't think I would have given the same answer if I was asked back then. As for the Bible, I've read the NT and maybe 1/3rd of the OT. For the most part though, I let the Holy Spirit guide me and don't really rely on the Bible for guidance too much because I really don't know what's right and what isn't with how many times our present Bible versions have been ripped up and reinterpreted over the years to arrive at this point.

While it may be true, I don't share the opinion that there you get a second chance on your deathbed. Jesus said the gates to heaven are narrow and the gates to hell are wide. It's very hard to get into heaven and very few will, but if everyone got a second chance at the very last minute, it would be easy to get into heaven wouldn't it? Just do whatever you want for your whole life and that's okay because when you die, Jesus or God himself will personally give you a second chance. We live many, many years full of chances. Just my opinion though.

reply to post by IamBoon


Sorry, your analogy is nonsense, which is why I ignored it. God is not bound by the actions, words or beliefs of man. He is not to be blamed when we make poor decisions, such as disregarding his expectations of us, or behaving badly "in his name." If a priest abuses a child, is God at fault, or the priest? Only a fool would claim it was God's fault.

To claim that God is somehow evil because he is omnipotent is foolishness.

Maybe it doesn't make sense because you simply don't know what your talking about.

Your asking a question about something you ASSUME to be real.

I knew I should have never clicked on this thread, .... I was doing so good too.

There is no hell, god does not judge, and the Christian interpetation of the bible if far from the truth.

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by SmokeandShadow

 

You're saying that you need to see and feel God's presence to take his suggestions seriously. I can understand that, but that isn't what he presents to us.

It is likely that, at the point of judgement, it is too late for "correction." You've already lived your life, shown your disregard for God's plan, and done whatever you damn well pleased. To correct you would require sending you back to try again, and there's no support for that in Christian theology.

I don't think that there is anything in my belief system that says that God feels anything other than horrible grief at a person's decision to reject him, but giving you free will means giving you enough rope to hang yourself.

What there is no support for is an eternal hell, you should go to bible-truths.com and read up. The word "hell" itself is a quagmire of misinformation. There are MANY verses which support the teaching that ALL people will be saved and cannot be explained away.

If you truly believe that, then there is no point to religion, Christianity, or anything else associated to God. We can do whatever we want... not just disregard his word, hey, throw it back in his face. Tell him that you're God yourself, and you'll do as you see fit.

Why did God go to all that trouble, making up commandments, sending his son to die a horrible death, all those prophets and messengers, when none of it makes the slightest difference, we all share in salvation, you, me, Ruth Bader Ginsberg(*), Nipsy Russell(*), Hitler. We're all golden.

(* - I have nothing against Ruth Bader Ginsberg or Nipsy Russell, I just remembered a funny MST3K line while writing that.)

reply to post by adjensen


Why so? If god CREATED EVIL is he not RESPONSIBLE for it? If he made the DEVIL and let him CORRUPT our souls is he not to blame? Maybe it is YOU who are short-sighted and foolish. My analogy works fine. You just cannot accept it as your god can do no wrong even though that is basically what the whole Old Testament is about. That jealous ,nasty , infanticidal maniac. Example when he killed every newborn in Egypt, WHy the hell can't he just kill pharoah? Or what about just letting them go himself...? my mind is just filled with the many horrific and unjust acts committed by this invisible friend of yours.


Omnipotence does in fact hold god responsible for he cannot possibly be benevolent in all aspects if he has the power to abolish evil and in fact partakes in committing evil himself . Read the "Old Testament and the New it is all there for your soon to be teary eyes to read.

Instead of writin off a post with no rebuttal and just make a silly claim about its poster try and show some intelligence!

[edit on 5-7-2010 by IamBoon]