Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by adjensen

 

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." (John 14:10)

So there are two entities dwelling in Jesus him and the father. He also asked that the apostles and him be one as he and the father are one. So does this mean he wanted to dissolve all of them into himself. Or to be be one in purpose so to spea? Like a molecule is made up of single cells but comes together to create something greater then thier individual cells but they do not loose their cell identity. As an example We all know Water is made of two hydrogen cells and one oxygen cell to form something completely different then they are as cells.

The common Christian understanding of Christ and the Father being one misses the mark IMO. However I do agree in a sense he is God however he also said to the people Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34

So he echos the eastern and other esoteric teachings that we are all God or part of God.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by hawkiye]

The problem with this is that, if Christ was not God, then his death means nothing, and there is no salvation. Which means that Christianity means nothing. Christ cannot merely be a "good teacher" who reflects God, because that isn't what he said he was. In John 20:28, Thomas calls him "My lord and my God", and there is no correction.

Christ was crucified for claiming to be God, the highest blasphemy a Jew could commit. He didn't say "No, Caiaphas, I meant 'God is IN me'" or tell Pilate that this was all a big mistake. His apostles were martyred subsequently for doing the same thing. Would Peter, who denied Christ three times, have gone to his death proclaiming Christ to be God, on a lie?

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

What I get from NDE's is that everyone is forgiven untill they "see" chirst in his glory. Not from a book. God would know that a book cannot perseuade 6 billion people. When we see him when we die the choice is ours. People who do not see the light, finally call for god, then out of no where a light comes. God forgives. It does not matter how bad the crime, If you ask for forgivness and truley mean it, he will help you.

This is the Catholic (and Anglican) concept of purgatory. I was not brought up in a faith that has a purgatorial tradition, but I have no problem with it. About the only argument against it is that it does diminish free will somewhat, though C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" does a good job of demonstrating why someone would still turn away from God, even when you know for a fact that he's real.

The thing I always wondered about Jesus was what went on in his mind. And don't say you know because you do not. We only knew what he preached. You don’t think it is an ego boost to be told you are the lord and god? I still stand by my defence, that any god would know that a book 2000 years ago cannot show that much truth in today’s society. If we die and see Jesus and reject him that is a totally different story. But to put your faith in a book 2000 years ago in today’s society, is really hard to accept. It really is.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

Ahh, but you are wrong. Translations from Hebrew, Greek are different from English and other languages.

Read again what I said -- translations are interpretations. But one can still go back to the original, early documents, they still exist. Unless you believe in time travel, the words in those earliest documents, whether Greek or Hebrew, have not changed. No one gathered up every Bible in 1250AD and changed Jesus' name, Paul's letters, or the premise of Christianity.

reply to post by adjensen


So you believe in black and white? But no grey? It with either Good or Bad, no neutral? To think we know stuff about heaven is stupid, because we do not. Study every scripture, EVERY religion, and every scientific field. Talk to atheists, talk to Hindus, talk to everyone. Truth is not in one religion.

reply to post by adjensen


Constantine was around before 1200 A.D. It was already over a 1000 years after Jesus death. It was changed since then. There is no bible that was around in Constantine’s time, which we still have.

reply to post by adjensen


So you agree that "eon" can in fact be turned into eternity, throughout the ages?

Originally posted by Maddogkull
The thing I always wondered about Jesus was what went on in his mind. And don't say you know because you do not. We only knew what he preached. You don’t think it is an ego boost to be told you are the lord and god?

So your theory is that Jesus allowed people to believe that he was God because he was egotistical and arrogant? Exactly contrary to what he'd been preaching about? I'm not sure that I can go along with that.

If you're ever looking for some clarification of these sorts of issues, I'd highly recommend "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, which does a very good job of stripping away the dogma of the sectarian differences that have obscured Christianity since the days of the early church (which seems to be your complaint, though you keep saying it's the Bible that has changed) and explaining the real core of our faith.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

Constantine was around before 1200 A.D. It was already over a 1000 years after Jesus death. It was changed since then. There is no bible that was around in Constantine’s time, which we still have.

I wasn't implying that, I was saying that the words of the Bible haven't really changed since the Biblical Canon was determined by Origen Adamantius in the early 200s. Martin Luther, for example, changed our interpretation of how some of this stuff worked, but he didn't rewrite Acts or the Gospels to support what he said.

Again, the theological argument for Christ's divinity is that, without it, Christianity doesn't matter. It would just be another offshoot of Judaism and, because God's covenant was extended to them, the Gentiles (ie: us) would have no part of it.

reply to post by adjensen


No that is not my argument, but I have just pondered that. Like I said before, One likes recognition of their work, it is human/normal. Like I said, in the NDE I quoted. Humans need evidence, it is in our nature. For a god to defy our nature (one that he built) is not perfect. Now if we die and see Jesus, and still do not accept him, that is a different story that is what I am trying to tell you, with that NDE and my argument. It does not mean we will go to hell because we do not believe him on earth. It is when we come face to face with him. That is when it truly matters. You also have to remember, Jesus was human. He was susceptible to pain. No one is perfect in their human form. To tell you the truth, I do not really believe when you say you have studied NDEs because you would of truly saw the NDE I posted, and you would know that we are forgiven for the stuff that we endure on the earthly plane because we do not know. It is when we die is what matters. NDE’s never talk about religious dogma, hardly any. That is why Christians say NDE’s are from the devil, because NDEs do not fit in there world view. Not all Christians but some.

reply to post by Maddogkull


You mention one of the founding fathers of the bible, but do you know his beliefs? Some of his beliefs differ from yours. Does that make him any more wrong then me?

Some of Origen's Beliefs:

Origen believed that man was divine.

He believed in the pre-existence of souls

He taught that everyone, including the Devil, would eventually be saved.

He described the Trinity as a "hierarchy," not as an equality of Father, Son, and Spirit.

He believed in baptismal regeneration.

He believed in purgatory.

He taught that the Holy Spirit was the first creature made by God.

He believed Christ was created.

He taught transmigration (this is the belief that at death the soul passes into another body).

He denied a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation, taught that it was a "myth" and taught that there was no actual person named "Adam."

He taught that Christ "became" God at His baptism.

He taught, based on Matthew 19, that a true man of God should be castrated, which he did to himself.

He denied the physical resurrection of believers.

reply to post by adjensen

The problem with this is that, if Christ was not God, then his death means nothing, and there is no salvation. Which means that Christianity means nothing. Christ cannot merely be a "good teacher" who reflects God, because that isn't what he said he was. In John 20:28, Thomas calls him "My lord and my God", and there is no correction. Christ was crucified for claiming to be God, the highest blasphemy a Jew could commit. He didn't say "No, Caiaphas, I meant 'God is IN me'" or tell Pilate that this was all a big mistake. His apostles were martyred subsequently for doing the same thing. Would Peter, who denied Christ three times, have gone to his death proclaiming Christ to be God, on a lie?

But that is what he said you quoted it "the father is in me" I don't think the ridged Jews cared how it was phrased either way they saw it as blasphemy. His death wasn't for nothing it helped release people from their guilt but it did not literally take away their sins and the consequences there off. It was also an initiation for Jesus (Yeshua) to a fifth or sixth level master.

"Jesus also said Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing" Matthew 5:26

This is all evidenced by people who have supposedly accepted Christ but they commit some sin and are not absolved of the pain suffering guilt and consequence of thier action. The atonement was to help them get over thier guilt so they wouldn't waste thier life dwelling on thier guilt and move on. So in this sense he does save all who will accept. As I said the literal black and white interpretation of many Christians is very limited in light.
Here is some good articles on it: www.freeread.com...

He also taught "cast your bread upon the waters and it will come back to you a hundred fold". This is the law of karma and this is how sins or harm to others is paid for, and this is what it means to pay the utter most farthing. Everything you do or send out will come back to you whether good or bad regardless of if you believe in Christ or not.

The Christ came and dwelled in Yeshua and worked through him and they became as one but they were two entities working together through one body by mutual agreement. The Christ is indeed the greatest and Yeshua a high level initiate also, the crucifixion was his 5th or sixth initiation. www.freeread.com...

I have always wondered why God who knew the Alfa and Omega created something he knew would go wrong.

Why knowingly create something which would lead to little innocent children being hurt..they have no free will.. or animals who spend their lives being afraid of being the bigger ones meal.


Have for many years believed Jesus was the first hippy...love not war

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

To tell you the truth, I do not really believe when you say you have studied NDEs because you would of truly saw the NDE I posted, and you would know that we are forgiven for the stuff that we endure on the earthly plane because we do not know. It is when we die is what matters. NDE’s never talk about religious dogma, hardly any. That is why Christians say NDE’s are from the devil, because NDEs do not fit in there world view. Not all Christians but some.

After my wife died, I read a lot of those things, because I've really struggled with wanting to know (more than just believe) that she's okay. Even read a book by a pastor ("90 Minutes in Heaven") and those sorts of things have brought me comfort.

You, however, have been a bit selective in your readings, as I did come across a few NDEs that described an afterlife more reminiscent of hell, and I just googled this up:

www.cinemind.com...

I have no idea how accurate or relevant that article is, I just forward it along as a contrary point of view.

As for Origen Adamantius's beliefs, they have no real bearing on me. My faith is what it is, doesn't matter what the Pope thought in 990AD, what John Wesley thought in 1770, or what Origen believed or didn't believe.

Thank you for that article, and I am sorry to hear about your wife. I am familiar with an article very similar to that. Did you notice though, some of the experiences were talking about alternate realities, not necessarily heaven. Even the bible says, there are many thrones/houses in the kingdom of god. The thing about NDEs (and you will even know this) that if in hell, you ask for forgiveness you will be forgiven. I have never heard of an NDE were someone were on their knees and pleaded for god to help, and no one came. Hence, asking for forgiveness after death, you can still get into heaven. Eternity in hell is stupid.

reply to post by adjensen


Remember I said hardly any. There are of course some, I believe in a hell. Not the kind religious people talk about, but I do believe in some form of hell. NDE's like that article said, does not describe the hell Christianity shows.

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by adjensen

 

The problem with this is that, if Christ was not God, then his death means nothing, and there is no salvation. Which means that Christianity means nothing. Christ cannot merely be a "good teacher" who reflects God, because that isn't what he said he was. In John 20:28, Thomas calls him "My lord and my God", and there is no correction. Christ was crucified for claiming to be God, the highest blasphemy a Jew could commit. He didn't say "No, Caiaphas, I meant 'God is IN me'" or tell Pilate that this was all a big mistake. His apostles were martyred subsequently for doing the same thing. Would Peter, who denied Christ three times, have gone to his death proclaiming Christ to be God, on a lie?

But that is what he said you quoted it "the father is in me" I don't think the ridged Jews cared how it was phrased either way they saw it as blasphemy. His death wasn't for nothing it helped release people from their guilt but it did not literally take away their sins and the consequences there off. It was also an initiation for Jesus (Yeshua) to a fifth or sixth level master.

I think that you're missing the point about Christ saying (or even just allowing someone else to say it) that he was God. To a Jew at that time, there was pretty much nothing worse that you could say or do. Even the act of listening to someone say it was a crime before God. That's why the Priests tore their clothes when they questioned Jesus.

If Jesus was merely a prophet (or guru or whatever label you like,) he wouldn't have allowed any mention of this, wouldn't have said that he would sit at the right hand of the Father, another blasphemy (Stephen, you may recall, was stoned specifically for saying that he saw Jesus there.) A prophet, it is assumed, would be fairly well schooled in religion, and would stay within the law. Committing the worst form of blasphemy seems out of the question, leaving one with the options that either Christ was God, or he and his followers were liars of the worst sort.

reply to post by Maddogkull

If Jesus was merely a prophet (or guru or whatever label you like,) he wouldn't have allowed any mention of this, wouldn't have said that he would sit at the right hand of the Father, another blasphemy (Stephen, you may recall, was stoned specifically for saying that he saw Jesus there.) A prophet, it is assumed, would be fairly well schooled in religion, and would stay within the law. Committing the worst form of blasphemy seems out of the question, leaving one with the options that either Christ was God, or he and his followers were liars of the worst sort.

On the contrary most of the prophets went against the leaders of established religion and were outcast and persecuted and killed. Jesus even accused them of killing the prophets etc. I am not saying Jesus wasn't one of the greatest but I am saying he and the Christ we two different entites working together in Jesus Body. Check this article out: www.freeread.com...

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

It Really is not that complicated I have come to realize, CHRIST LIVES, and man kills, "why create you own hell wraped around your own confussion?"

You have to realize that God is not the God of the Bible to begin with and the religions are control mechanisms. But even if you are a Christian, the concept of a permanent hell was a later addition centuries later past the initial christians.

In reality its quantum physics meets the beyond/heaven. And this universe is a hologram school, we are the Infinite Family of Light, the many branches of the vine, the many drops of water in the ocean of Infinity, the enless sunlight streaming in like a signal to this giant flatscreen tv universe. It takes two lazers to erect holograms, in a laboratory, but in the universe that is our star, and all stars, that broadcast the signal in for this dvd/or school from the Zero point/vacuum.

Nothing is permanent all are progressing even the most negative progress "in time" where time is but a program, for in the Beyond our true home, we are in "no time". Each clip of the film of the Infinite roll of each of our lives is another us, we have infinite selves and all of us, including the biggest baddest most negative beign in the universe, that is truly alive and has consiousness has already made it home. Their future selves or Higher Selves has made it out.

In the temporal, when we hurt others we incur karma, and unless we are working to overcome the world and forgive self and others and to repair relationships as best we can, and to start to take repsonsiblitiy for self and the way the world is and worry or care about the billions starving to death, we do not progress or pass the test.

If we have hurt someone badly, we will have to make up for this in terrible suffering and it will be somethign we ourselves turn ourselves into, for....when we leave this flesh we remember who we are, and that everyone here is our beloved family in every country, true family, children, fathers, mothers, true loves all here, that we are cosmic citizens and remember everyone. And when we realize that we have hurt those we love, we turn ourselves over to the jailers feelign such shame.

Starseeds and those who come here from the beyond to help ppl get out faster are very concerned with teh negatives and the negative harvest that these lost and delusional mystery school people who have the truth twisted so they cant see what is real, and what a duality really is, and they are here to help free their family faster.

The threads in my signature are about that.