Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

This 'biblic god' is considered sadistic. He loved you, yet he keeps you in bondage and punishes you.

Any psychologist should know that traumatic punishment isn't very affective...

Who ever wrote the bible tully made an abomination out of the true divine.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Scarcer]

The idea that God is not basically wholly responsible for Hell and evildoers is absurd. Such a notion is against the very concept of God, since this God supposed to have power over all things. If that is so then he is ultimately responsible for evil as well as good.

Also the notion that the devil, hell, or evil are separate from God is also absurd in the light of the idea of omnipotence.

God “created” evil through the fall of man that created the matrix of the fallen soul that was exposed to negative energy. This negative energy is not omnipotent therefore some humans can to a degree have the free will to change. Some don’t because they are too exposed to this negative energy matrix.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
Another thing, pain can be controlled. They say we will burn in a lake of fire forever. If it is forever, we will eventually be able to get use to pain, and it would be a normal thing throughout our life. Pain would then become normal, and would hence not be painful. If you are exposed to it forever, eventually it would be normal and not devastating. Eventually if hell does exist would not even be painful. Some people might even like a lot of pain. The notion of hell being a fire abyss is illogical.

Again, I am not a Fundamentalist. I do not take everything in the Bible as literal, so whether hell is a lake of fire, forced absence from God, or oblivion, I have no idea. But I do know that, given the choice, I would take heaven over hell, and the steps to ensuring that are pretty simple.

its like how i always wonder why God put the apple tree in the garden of eden , when God was supposed to know that the apple would have been eaten, makes no sense ot me..but then again...nothing in religion does makes sense anymore.

reply to post by adjensen


They believe if they believe in a higher power, that is it. Not a god who we must worship or else we go to hell. If you truly studied NDE's you would know that we do not have to accept Jesus as our saviour on earth. After we die and see him in his glory is a different story. But on earth we do not. Seriously if you study NDE's you would know the whole argument you presented is illogical. I truly respect you opinion, but the thing that separates us is the dogma of religion. I believe if I do well; help people because I want to, that in the end I will either not exist (if nothing exists after death), or be rewarded in the afterlife. You believe that even doing the best you can in your life (helping people) is not good enough if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as our saviour. Now I hope god would understand my logic.

reply to post by adjensen

The core of Christianity, by the way, is that Christ was more than "a man". Again, if you don't believe that, that's fine, but if Christ was NOT God, as he claimed to be, there is no point to Christianity at all.

Christ never claimed to be God. " And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

[edit on 4-7-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by GENESIS2012
its like how i always wonder why God put the apple tree in the garden of eden , when God was supposed to know that the apple would have been eaten, makes no sense ot me..but then again...nothing in religion does makes sense anymore.

well thats simple. The tree symbolizes choice. if there were no choice, then all we would have here is a bunch of golems walking around mindlessly. it is inherent by the very nature of design, creation.

Why does God allow abusive and cheating men get more sex from women and the nice guys the women ignore?

As far as the (free will)....sounds like an excuse for God to do nothing but wait for your choice. I didn't realize we had that much power but i guess we do. I haven't found any of it

[edit on 4-7-2010 by superluminal11]

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by adjensen

 

The core of Christianity, by the way, is that Christ was more than "a man". Again, if you don't believe that, that's fine, but if Christ was NOT God, as he claimed to be, there is no point to Christianity at all.

Christ never claimed to be God. " And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

[edit on 4-7-2010 by hawkiye]

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." (John 14:10)

He also said, that god is in all of us. Including him. We are all gods. Did you ever think that is what he was trying to tell us. Jesus was god. But so are you and me. We all come from the same source.

reply to post by adjensen


Another thing is, you post quotes like they came from his mouth. Did you hear him say it? The bible has been changed throughout 2000 years.

Originally posted by superluminal11
Why does God allow abusive and cheating men get more sex from women and the nice guys the women ignore?

As far as the (free will)....sounds like an excuse for God to do nothing but wait for your choice. I didn't realize we had that much power but i guess we do. I haven't found any of it

[edit on 4-7-2010 by superluminal11]

well sex is a carnal desire. carnal desires are trivial when compared to spirituality. so the cycle perpetuates itself. these men abuse, get sex, and so it reinforces bad behavior. it just is.

A very old question, that has been answered by the theologians, and yet, I think you're right on monkey, there ain't "no satisfaction" in what they keep saying. I wonder why that is?

Probably because the very idea of "Hell" itself contains real contradictions, and most people are in fact too smart to really believe it.

And yet, many seem to believe it, like adjensen, who is certainly sharing the standard, dare I even use the word "orthodox" responses.

But since we've all been there, done that, why not attempt a new approach to this difficulty? I'm sure there are ATS'ers out there who love to think outside the box, why not tackle this old problem, since it still seems to stick in so many craws?

In another thread, I shared my thoughts on this matter, but right up front I should say that I was raised a Christian, and was also taught about that awful place called Hell. But the "good news" is, I escaped! So maybe you can too.

But I'm not sure anyone can escape anything, if the prison itself remains tightly around our heads. It's really important to get out of that box, even if only for a minute, and genuinely slip on other "moccasins", just so you can see what they feel like. Otherwise, you can spend a lot of time just thinking essentially the same thoughts (usually the same ones given to you as a child), and if they never got you to "satisfaction", then I would submit that it can't hurt to try another approach.

Here's what I observed that I found quite interesting. From what I could tell, it didn't look like anyone actually believed in hell to begin with! I know, some of the knee-jerkers out there have just shut off the channel, but as absurd as this sounds, I was not able to disprove it, even though I tried.

And so I thought about real people, people in my life, people I knew, people who "should" really believe in hell (think about your pastors and priests, maybe even your devout grandma!), and yet, none of them really passed the "test" I had devised. And that test had to do with how people really acted, when one of their loved ones "fell into hell". Because we all know that actions speak louder than words.

Still pretty absurd? Well, over the years, various people have died of course. Not all of them I knew, but I made it a point to explore some about each event, learn what I could. As many may guess, a fair amount of these would not have been considered "saved" (in the usual popular sense). To take this perspective as an observer can be quite interesting, because you can politely ask "thoughtful" questions that people will often answer, and they hardly realize they are on a sort of "candid camera".

Take the one friend I had who I had known since grammer school. He eventually passed away, died of throat/mouth cancer. Life-long tobacco user of course. I had well-meaning "christian" folk tell me things like, "Well, objectively speaking, I guess we know where he's at, sorry to say..." Yes, he had lived a wild life, but I found myself wondering about the morality of not just the people who thought this way about other human beings, but about a system that seemed prone to producing such thoughts.

But that would be one end of the spectrum. What about those we love? For example, we could say something like "Mama's boy is dead, but he sure wasn't saved!" This might happen a thousand times a day. And yet, after a normal period of Mama's grief, what we really observe is that life just goes on.

But should it? "If" Mama (or anybody) truly believed her beloved was suffering in that terrible place, wouldn't they ACT differently? Shouldn't they be insane with grief, perhaps come to hate God even, etc. In my other post, I use the example of a big pot of hot water in your house, with your loved one inside! They would be hard to ignore in this example, but if you really believed in that awful place, you wouldn't have to have it in your face, you would believe. But what do we see? Life just goes on!

Why is this? The simplest explanation is that we really don't believe that our loved ones ares in that place at all. Not so hard to imagine really, but we would have to take the cage off our heads for a moment to truly consider it.

Here's yet another non-theological thought. Perhaps there are some out there who have actually loved someone before? I would submit that if this was the case, then it should be enough, all by itself, to realize the absurdity in claiming "God" loves us, (more than anyone else could!), and yet "allows" such an incredibly horrific eternal fate for the (supposed) beloved. Of course, "free will", blah, blah! But first try loving anybody really, and then see if yabbering about free will cuts it. Intuitively, something should kick in that says, "It can't be..."

Remember that really horrid "god" Molech of the old Testament? The one with his arms held out, ready to hold your baby? He sure was a beast! In order to give sacrifice to him, the metal or stone idol was heated to red-hot. Then, infants would be placed into his arms, as their mothers looked on! Imagine the unbelievable screams! Look upon the young mother's tormented face!

And yet, the christian "god" is a million times worse! As terrible as Molech was, it must be said that he really could only "enjoy" the screams of the infant for perhaps a whole 30 seconds before the child expired. But the popular "true God" of today, he watches the "smoke of their torment ascend forever, and ever..."! This is Love? Not even close.

Someone mentioned Stalin, Hitler...If their mothers could love them, so could any "real" God. For those who have children, ask yourself, what kind of crime would they have to commit for you to be OK with sending them to Hell? What if they killed someone? What if they enjoyed doing it? What if it was 1,000...a million they killed. Look at that child and realize that if you even knew what love was, such a thing "would never enter your minds" (A scriptural reference, the OT "god" talking about how he detested sacrifice to Molech).

What about the complete lack of remedial value in Hell? You mean, Hitler could suffer a million years, and not "get it"? You mean Christ, the "Divine Physician" can't fix Hitler? Hmmm.

And so far, no deep theology! There is that too, but this is long enough already (don't worry Christians, no one really reads this long stuff!).

JR

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

They believe if they believe in a higher power, that is it. Not a god who we must worship or else we go to hell. If you truly studied NDE's you would know that we do not have to accept Jesus as our saviour on earth. After we die and see him in his glory is a different story. But on earth we do not. Seriously if you study NDE's you would know the whole argument you presented is illogical. I truly respect you opinion, but the thing that separates us is the dogma of religion. I believe if I do well; help people because I want to, that in the end I will either not exist (if nothing exists after death), or be rewarded in the afterlife. You believe that even doing the best you can in your life (helping people) is not good enough if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as our saviour. Now I hope god would understand my logic.

The only way to accept that is to reject all of Christianity. There is nothing in the faith that says what you believe is the way it is. To the contrary, Christ flat out says that no one comes to the Father except through him. I've not found anything in my readings of NDE experiences that refutes the Christian faith, particularly if one accepts the concept of purgatory. You may wish to look into purgatory, as I think it would satisfy what you hope things are going to be like.

BTW, at one time, I would have agreed with your last line, that one might be able to plead your case and convince God that you're right, and he's wrong, but that seems a little foolish when you think about it, doesn't it?

Here is a passage from someone who had an NDE

"The light showed me that what is important is that we love God and each other, and that it isn't what a person says, but the love in their being that is examined in the afterlife. In reviewing and reliving your life, your acts and thoughts of love bring you and God great joy, and your acts and thoughts of indifference, selfishness, and anger bring you and God deep remorse. We are all part of God's family, and are all interconnected. Those organizations, or religions, which claim some singular relationship with God, claim superiority over others, or exclude people for various reasons, go against God's law that we love one another as we love ourselves."

"During my youth I grew up believing that God is unfair. I was taught that when Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by me," this meant that only those who publicly profess their faith in Christ go to heaven. I felt if this were true, God is unjust because not everyone wants, or has the opportunity to be exposed to, Christian teachings. I asked the light, which I call Christ, how people from other religions get to heaven. I was shown that the group, or organization, we profess alliance to is inconsequential. What is important is how we show our love for God by the way we treat each other. This is because when we pass to the spiritual realm we will all be met by him, which substantiates the passage, "No one comes to the Father, but by me."


[edit on 4-7-2010 by Maddogkull]

reply to post by adjensen

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." (John 14:10)

So there are two entities dwelling in Jesus him and the father. He also asked that the apostles and him be one as he and the father are one. So does this mean he wanted to dissolve all of them into himself. Or to be be one in purpose so to spea? Like a molecule is made up of single cells but comes together to create something greater then thier individual cells but they do not loose their cell identity. As an example We all know Water is made of two hydrogen cells and one oxygen cell to form something completely different then they are as cells.

The common Christian understanding of Christ and the Father being one misses the mark IMO. However I do agree in a sense he is God however he also said to the people Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34

So he echos the eastern and other esoteric teachings that we are all God or part of God.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by hawkiye]

I just presented an NDE to what you are talking about, it took a few seconds.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

Another thing is, you post quotes like they came from his mouth. Did you hear him say it? The bible has been changed throughout 2000 years.

There are enough early texts that remain consistent to give us the expectation that what we have is what they had at the Council of Nicaea, for example. The interpretation of the New Testament has changed throughout the past 2,000 years, of course, but the words haven't.

reply to post by adjensen


What I get from NDE's is that everyone is forgiven untill they "see" chirst in his glory. Not from a book. God would know that a book cannot perseuade 6 billion people. When we see him when we die the choice is ours. People who do not see the light, finally call for god, then out of no where a light comes. God forgives. It does not matter how bad the crime, If you ask for forgivness and truley mean it, he will help you.

reply to post by adjensen


Ahh, but you are wrong. Translations from Hebrew, Greek are different from English and other languages. Ughh I wish I can remember his name he is a lawyer, even though I do not approve of a lot of what he says he makes a good point. Something Zimmer, Andrew Zimmer? Ugh it’s something like that. For example "Eon" was the original word for eternity, eon meaning a vast amount of time, was turned into eternity, which meant infinity. It is the small things that make the difference.