Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by JR MacBeth

...Here's what I observed that I found quite interesting. From what I could tell, it didn't look like anyone actually believed in hell to begin with! ...

And so I thought about real people, people in my life, people I knew, people who "should" really believe in hell (think about your pastors and priests, maybe even your devout grandma!), and yet, none of them really passed the "test" I had devised. And that test had to do with how people really acted, when one of their loved ones "fell into hell". Because we all know that actions speak louder than words.

...What about those we love? For example, we could say something like "Mama's boy is dead, but he sure wasn't saved!" This might happen a thousand times a day. And yet, after a normal period of Mama's grief, what we really observe is that life just goes on.

But should it? "If" Mama (or anybody) truly believed her beloved was suffering in that terrible place, wouldn't they ACT differently? Shouldn't they be insane with grief, perhaps come to hate God even, etc. In my other post, I use the example of a big pot of hot water in your house, with your loved one inside! They would be hard to ignore in this example, but if you really believed in that awful place, you wouldn't have to have it in your face, you would believe. But what do we see? Life just goes on!
...
What about the complete lack of remedial value in Hell? You mean, Hitler could suffer a million years, and not "get it"? You mean Christ, the "Divine Physician" can't fix Hitler? Hmmm.

Trust me, there are Christians that believe in Hell, as a real place. I am one of them, and have known quite a few over the decades. I had a friend die that wasn't saved. Terrible thing! Worst funeral I have ever attended, and that includes, for the record, losing both parents, and twin grandsons. Losing this friend was worse, because, in his case, I know it's forever. Nothing I can do will change that. I talked to him, and we discussed all the relevant information, but in the end, he rejected it. I won't hate God for that, though! MY friend made the decision.

As for Hell having, or not having, "remedial value", that would not work. By the time one gets there, they have set their decision in stone. Those that choose that path had every opportunity. Wanting out of prison once one is there doesn't mean the prisoner would act differently, if given another chance. You see, God knows what choices they would make in that case.

First, I would like to thank you Lady, for adding me as one of your foes.

I have to confess, my comment about no one really believing in Hell, is a bit inflammatory, on it's face. I fully expected someone to take umbrage with it. Nevertheless, it was my observation, in spite of the fact that I began my quest with quite the opposite assumption.

That is, I initially had no reason to doubt that people did in fact believe in such a terrible place, since I had been raised to believe it myself. But actual behavior is a telling thing, and as a careful observer of it, a suspicion began to develop inside me that perhaps true belief in the awful place, was possibly much rarer than I had ever suspected.

I'm taking you through the steps in my reasoning, which took place very gradually, over decades. I had progressed to the point where it seemed that no one, at least in my experiences, really seemed to ACT, "appropriately" if you will, given the enormity of what they (supposedly) believed.

Again, years passed. Certainly my "sample size" would always be too small to draw solid conclusions. But it grew, nonetheless, as family and friends passed away, and my observations continued.

Strangely, some of the people I had suspected would be most affected by the apparent loss of a loved one, to that terrible place, were not as moved as I would have guessed. In a couple of instances, I made conscious mental note of the fact that their speech betrayed them, and little slips were made that indicated they actually believed their loved one "made it", in spite of the consensus that said the person in question, did not make it. Oh sure, understandable, it is such a traumatic time.

But there was more that played into the drama. People's attitudes about the poor souls, a seemingly callous lack of respect, dare I say, for the sad passing of that poor black sheep. Surely, my innate sense of morality was offended, not a few times, but then, I had attuned myself to the very thing over the years.

What a contradiction. Those who profess such high ideals, and a superior moral standard, were apparently "dead" last, when it came to a charitable thought for the poor soul they had consigned to damnation. Of course, you might have the rare moment when someone might "trust in the mercy of God", but it was "damn" rare.

The fact is, the entire "christian" paradigm is far from trusting their "god". Not hard to believe, considering they ascribe to Him far less mercy, than even the worst of us might be capable of. I know, all the blabber is just the opposite! But for me, actions spoke louder than words.

I could well go on, but I won't, I'm already ridiculously verbose. However, I want to address that term you used, "set in stone"...

Sort of like "Saved" (past tense). Christians won't see it, but the paradigm itself is what is so set in stone. The mere notion that someone would dare to consider themselves "saved", while they still live, and while they are objectively capable of almost any monstrous thing, should be a blasphemy, and is at minimum, a form of self-deception, and pride, IMO.

I could use this example: A king has a loyal servant. He is as loyal as it gets, and is completely trusted. BUT, he is just human after all! And upon close inspection, he has "free will"!...He may have pledged his loyalty, but can he perhaps still betray his master? Well, he does continue to have free will, and so, treason, and all other crimes in fact, would remain a logical possibility. In fact, as long as he breathed, he could change sides! Otherwise, we dare not call it "free" will.

And yet we do. And so the faulty notion of being "saved", morphs into the idea of that moment of death, where all is "set in stone." BUT, in each case, free will continues, intact. Faulty theology, at a minimum.

JR

reply to post by vasaga


As I wrote to someone else, we are more than our beginning and our ends. The part that you play in the ongoing development of reality may be important enough to merit your creation, regardless of where you wind up.

Just because God knows what you will choose doesn't mean that you're not the one choosing it. It would seem that, rather than stew and twist on idle speculation and indignation, it's a lot easier to just make good choices.

I doubt that's it at all. He doesn't create you knowing you will go to hell. He creates you knowing what choices you will face and every possible out come of every possible choice. When God creates a person I don't believe he knows where that person will end up, but he does know every choice that person will face.

Using the logic that he put us here knowing where we end up, that just creates another way to blame God for your own actions. He allows us to make our own choices. You chose yourself whether you are going to do good or evil.

When I think of God as all knowing, I believe it's all knowing as in every possible outcome of every possible choice made. It's up to you to walk the path, he just knows where each different path leads to.

An example would be - when you wake up in the morning God doesn't know if you are going to get out of bed on the left or the right side, but he knows the outcome of either choice. Do you see what I mean? The choices in life are our own, he simply knows the outcome to each different path that we have before us to walk down. He does not know which choice you are going to make in any given situation, but he knows the outcome of each possible choice. It's left up to you to decide what you are going to do. And that is our free will.

God is essentially an all-knowing parent. God does not create while existing in his creation. He exists outside of the creation. Therefore indeed he knows the outcome of things, no way around that. That alone is not a reason not to create. How powerful is love? Evidently far more powerful than we can ever realize. Through what lengths would you go through to save someone you loved? And yet there are still barriers that would prevent or maybe even stop you from being able to help. But you would continue to try wouldn't you?

I wonder how many parents abort their child when science (doctors) tell them the child will be born with a mental handicap, say down syndrome.

How strong is your pride? Can love truly overcome all?
This answer would say a lot about yourself.

IMO one person saved out of millions that may reject and choose to not exist with god, is more than enough reason to create. This speaks volumes about how powerful Love is.


You don't like the rules? Then change.
or don't and continue to revel in the flesh

I think people who say that they would have rather not existed at all is a bit like a teenager saying they know it all and would rather leave home because they have it so hard. Just my opinion.

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
Maybe that's just part of Gods test. Instead of just believing in him you CHOSE to question him and now you are lost. But you do have the choice to believe if you want, only you are stopping you, no one to blame. Kinda simple if you think about it.

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


There is no such thing as 'hell'. It's a Christian invention derived from a Jerusalem garbage dump that was always on fire. One thing you have to understand about Christianity is that they kill, steal, plagiarize and are an immoral bunch pretending to be oh so much better than everyone else. Half their 'holidays' are stolen from pagan rituals in an attempt to convert the pagans.

Christianity and it[s followers are the worst religion this planet has seen thus far.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO

 

One thing you have to understand about Christianity is that they kill, steal, plagiarize and are an immoral bunch pretending to be oh so much better than everyone else.

Nice wide brush you have there.

I'm a Christian, and I neither kill, steal nor plagiarize to defend my faith (nor to do anything, for that matter.) I try to keep fairly strict morals, but I've never, not once, thrown them in the face of someone else. Your choices are your own, I'm not planning on taking responsibility for them.

reply to post by adjensen


Sorry, I forgot to add that Christianity also promotes lack of education and inability to properly read.

Did I single you out specifically my friend? No, I did not. Truth be told, your religion has indeed plagiarized, does have a violent history and is immoral in the eyes of the lord it supposedly worships.

I said Christianity, as in the religion itself you twit. Read before you post!

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
First, as ive read the replies I can see that most people dont understand scripture and most really dont want too. As we take our selves away from God he removes his hand from the children of Isreal. For Isreal the person whos 2 grandsons Ephram and monasses were to recieve their grandfathers blessing. Manassa being the older should have recieved the blessing for his offspring but instead Isreal who was blind took Ephrams hand and told him that his lineage would people the strongest empires yet ever on earth and was told that like the olive tree would spread its seed to every corner of the earth. this is not the gentiles only one of the tribes of Isreal. and not jewish which was also one of the 12 tribes. So to this point in time, the country known as America or the united states was the chosen of ephrams lineage which came from england. But in england God was removing his hand from that tribe. because it was inequidous in the eyes of God. So when this country the US was formed it took on the mantle of a Republic. or land of Gods laws . simple laws or 10 comandments. And after the signing by the 57 patriots A Republic with common law was formed. But again as the iniquidous take power from those who are God fearing once again they allow those who proscribe to Satan to rule. its quite simple. every nation that has risen after man replaces God as its head by liberal thought and direction God removes himself from those people. So today we are in that prepice ready to decend into that which has killed other civilizations because man doesnt understand and has never learned to govern himself with out the need for Gods guidance. Each of us live a life given to us by our maker and its up to us to come to the knowledge of God and his simple meaning. Which is, that there are 10 rules you must learn to reaquaint yourself to your maker. He is a jealous God He wants us not to cherish any other God but gives us daily the chance to come to him. he must love us very dearly, for if you read about David and the crimes that he commited, yet When he grew old repented of those crimes and became a chosen one of God. It shows us that God has a patience that we of this earth have never understood. and as man its our nature to ridicule, question bear all sorts of sins yet when we kneel in true prayer and admit our sins and ask for forgiveness God always shows us the path of rebirth and allegence to our heavenly father. I hope this gives you a good expanation Quis.

Take a walk and never come back to the computer.

Go as far away from society as possible.

Are you hungry from not being in civilization?
How are the weather conditions?

[edit on 7-7-2010 by Erad3]

reply to post by quisno



Just a heads up. When you post threads as large as this, please break them up into paragraphs, Trying to read it that way gave me a headache.

Back to the topic.

I read the thread, and my first question to you is this. Which do you follow more? Your bible, or the Creator within? Do you only take parts of it literally , and the rest you interpret? That is what I am seeing.

The God you follow, sounds more like man than the Creator. When did God become materialistic? And by that I mean, a jealous God. To have jealousy, that would mean God has an ego. How can a pure spirit such as our Creator have an ego? That would mean God is not pure. A pure spirit would not be subject to ego based thoughts. I would rethink that one if I were you.


Also, where do you find America in the bible? Was this an interpretation?

I find it puzzling, that there is a belief in a character the church created, like Satan. A character created to keep the masses in line. That would be like saying, God, the creator of everything, doesn`t have the power to stop Satan, a being he supposedly also created. I find that very hard to fathom.

You speak of the ten rules. Why is the most important one missing? Thou shall not infringe upon anothers free will.

One last thing. Asking for forgiveness from God. Do we need permission from God to forgive ourselves? I would think God would allow us to do so, without the need of asking him first.



[edit on 7-7-2010 by FiatLux]

[edit on 7-7-2010 by FiatLux]

People that believe in the existence of a literal Hell and wish to promote that idea should seriously rethink their views. The "Hell Problem" is one of the biggest reasons for the increase in Atheism and it serves to undermine Religion as a whole. Not only is the existence of a literal Hell illogical and highly improbable, it contradicts the idea that God is omni-X, loving and merciful. You can come up with all kinds of reasons to reassure yourself of this, but you will be left behind because anybody with the ability to think can clearly realise that the notion is false.

[edit on 7/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


Maybe the dichotomy of it all is a clue?

A clue to what?

Let's guess.

We're discussing the motives and behavior of a fully conscious and determinable intellect that has created the Earth and the cosmos, and everything that fills both, and has anchored it all with airtight precision through a logic infrastructure that exceeds the specs of the most anal-retentive, OCD-ravaged masterpiece to be imagined by the most blisteringly transcendent savant who's ever lived, and yet, we somehow imagine this intellect to also be so emotionally crippled and psychologically demented as to lash out in homicidal malevolence if we so much as love it and worship it incorrectly. And we refer to this insanity as divine justice as long as it's directed at folks that we don't agree with.

I think that the clues concerning the source of the problem point to us and not to this god that we're examining. After all, unless you consult one of the several books that have been written by guys with plenty to gain or lose as a result of those books, or consult one of the hundreds of Youtube videos that jam the Internet right now by people who also have a lot to gain or lose as a result of those videos, you won't have a clue as to what God does or doesn't think about any of this.

The truth is that you have to take someone's word on what they believe God thinks about anything, and if you do, there are 100 people standing right next to that person and telling you that he/she is full of crap. I don't worry about what anyone thinks about what God wants or doesn't want. I just try to be as good a version of myself as I can be, and trust that the intellect that put this all together is as rational and stable as the symmetry I see all around me.

[edit on 7-7-2010 by NorEaster]

reply to post by quisno




You need an AM radio show. This stuff is nuts. I almost believed you until I realized that the "America" stuff - as a tribe of Israel - was the wink to the folks who know better than to think you're being serious. Good parody.

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by quisno

 

You need an AM radio show. This stuff is nuts. I almost believed you until I realized that the "America" stuff - as a tribe of Israel - was the wink to the folks who know better than to think you're being serious. Good parody.

I don't know, I kept wondering how long it would be before he quoted The Doctrine and Covenants.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by adjensen

 

Did I single you out specifically my friend? No, I did not. Truth be told, your religion has indeed plagiarized, does have a violent history and is immoral in the eyes of the lord it supposedly worships.

I said Christianity, as in the religion itself you twit. Read before you post!

Perhaps now you'll explain how a religion kills, steals and plagiarizes.

Some people may do those things in the name of religion, but, since you're so careful and correct in your use of language, I'm curious to know how a concept can do these things.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Plus, God did not "create" evil. Evil is simply the result of OUR choices , and those of Satan and the rest of the demons, to break God's rules. WE cause evil.

wrong
that's not what your bible says!

Isaiah 45.

I make peace and i create evil.
I the LORD do all these things.
there is none here but me.

who is the pot to ask the potter, "what do you make?"

God DID create evil!!!

you didn't cause anything - you are but a limp wad of clay waiting for the wheel.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


"The Bible is the Word of God, given to us so that we can know Him."

How is a book going to let you know our Creator personally? Why not just look within youself, if you want to know our Creator? He never left us. We just tried to block him out, so that we could be self aware of being a single being, and not a part of the all.

Originally posted by adjensen


Perhaps now you'll explain how a religion kills, steals and plagiarizes.

Some people may do those things in the name of religion, but, since you're so careful and correct in your use of language, I'm curious to know how a concept can do these things.

Through the promotion of acts of violence. Throughout history the Judaic-Christian mythology has used it's doctrine to incite many wars or crusades against the Muslims and non-believers. That's history, you can't even argue against it unless you want to look uneducated or dismissive. Even today we can turn to the news and find Judaic-Christian mythology believers using it's doctrine to incite intolerance and hate crimes against fellow mankind. That's real world events, you can't even argue against that either without also looking uneducated or dismissive.

The Judaic-Christian mythology is historically the most violent and uneducated religion the world has seen. While the Judaic-Christian mythology was in it's dark ages destroying everything that went against doctrine, the Muslims were making great strides in science and mathematics and we can owe many advances to their continuous acceptance of scientific facts.

It's only recently that the Judaic-Christian mythology followers have started to accept science and have begun to use science as a tool to validate it's beliefs, even if it's usage creates a reinterpretation of it's gods infallible word devoid of it's original intent.

Most of the Judaic-Christian mythology can be traced to older mythologies and were used to win over the pagans of early Judaic-Christianity. Most, if not all Christians do not follow the teachings of Yeshua at all and they substitute God for Yeshua, rather believing he to be the lord instead. Most Christians, again if not all, don't even know the Messianic Prophecies as foretold in the Tanakh, or why the Jews never accepted Yeshua as the true Messiah. Hell, you folks can't even call him by his proper name, Yeshua!

reply to post by sirnex


One more time...

You claimed that Christianity performed those actions. Not Christians, Christianity. I'm still waiting to hear how the religion ever killed anyone.

Spanish Inquisition? Done by people, who believed (wrongly) that they were supposed to behave that way. Persecution of scientists because they put forth views of reality considered blasphemous? Done by people, who believed (wrongly) that they were supposed to behave that way. Etc, etc, etc.

You've personified a religion, an idea, in order to weasel your way out of your broad generalization. Just admit that, admit that neither the religion nor all of its followers kill, steal and plagiarize, and you're done.

I guarantee you that not all Christians who lived in the time of the Spanish Inquisition thought that it was such a good idea.