Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior

Originally posted by alicepip
reply to post by orionthehunter

 

But doesn't that still contradict the notion that god is all knowing? If he really was he would know the 'possible outcome' that you would choose. If he doesn't know that, he isn't omniscient.

you will always have contradictions when you are describing god with human logic. there is just no way around it. just like the whole can he create a rock that he can't move, and so forth. perhaps there is some other way.....

chicken and the egg, which came first, humans can't even figure this out, how are we to figure out an all powerful Creator of the universe???

god makes us all the same when we are born. its US who pick the road.

My belief is much like others' beliefs; we are all given the choice.

As far as being born in seclusion, that's a fair question. I would have to say that we are ALL given the grace of God by virtue of our birth. Much like animals have amazing instincts at the very moment of birth. They don't have to be taught, they just "know". I believe that is "God" at work. Atheists would simply call it "instinct" and leave it at that (and that's fine), but that doesn't really answer, "where does that instinct come from?". Personally, I find it incredibly amazing.

I believe we are all born with the "instinct" of right and wrong. We are born with the "instinct" of love or hate. Just as most mammals are very protective of their young, without being taught, we know right from wrong.

The difference is, we have been given a higher level of "intelligence". Whereas an animal will virtually always follow its instincts, humans can be "persuaded" one way or another, against their instincts. Call it our conscience and free will. Conscience is something we are born with, it isn't "taught" to us. It may take time to develop, but it's not something we learn. We all have had that instance where we have a choice to make and we are tempted to make the wrong choice because we know we can't be caught, but we still have that little, nagging voice saying, "that's not right".

God would not play games by creating good and evil then putting us in the middle of it with no possible way of knowing the difference.

It's easy and understandable to question some of the things God "lets" happen. As a Christian, I have those moments all the time. Sometimes it's answered by "free will" and sometimes it's not that simple, like a child dying of cancer. Wisdom tells us to keep looking for an answer.

Originally posted by Baloney
They refuse to research the origins of their Bible which is purely the work of plagiarism. Its characters and stories are all based on much earliers god figures, fable, and myths.

wrong

Originally posted by rangersdad
reply to post by Maddogkull

 

If you are willing to die for Jesus, you will get into Heaven.

key word, die... not fight, not kill, not wage war.....die....nicely put...

reply to post by hawkiye


Well, I read the first page of that, and it's enough for me. As I said earlier, if you start with a premise and go through scripture, looking for something that vindicates it, that's not hard to do. So it's difficult to take someone seriously who flat declares that he's desperate to find support in Christianity for reincarnation.

The difference between reincarnation and what Christian theology says is so significant, it seems highly unlikely that this is the case, and we've just overlooked it over the centuries.

Sorry if that makes me closed minded, but faith is an important matter for me, and I don't approach it with a casual "let's try on Buddhism for a while" way of thinking.

reply to post by AHustler


There are WAY more similarities involved than that site discusses! MANY MORE!!

What I find humorous is the similarities that the author DOES acknowledge, is disputed as being copied POST JESUS-era from faiths that PRE-DATE Jesus!! COME ON!!!! So these OLDER faiths WERE RECENTLY ALTERED TO SOUND LIKE JESUS??!!!!

At least you put actual EFFORT into it which is WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY more than any others of the faith do in a lifetime. Therefore I honestly and GENUINELY salute you, but must say "NAY" to that info.



[edit on 5-7-2010 by Baloney]

well... i found this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6471b0dd8269.jpg[/atsimg]

eta: if only it were that simple.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by gravykraken]




[edit on 5/7/2010 by gravykraken]

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDOWhat about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

God has a way of getting His word out. Take the Hopi Indians. They never saw a bible until the white men came to America, yet their prophecies are STRIKINGLY similar to the ones found in the Books of Daniel and Revelation in the bible. (It's very interesting and worth anyone's time who is interested in prophecy.)

reply to post by AHustler


All in all, regardless of whether or not there are some slight differences in the SAME basic laws, teachings, miracles, etc, etc, the MOST important thing is the FACT that there is NOTHING NEW OR UNIQUE ABOUT JESUS!!

NOTHING!!!!!!!!

Minor disputes over MINOR discrepancies CANNOT change that FACT!

There is NOTHING original about Jesus!

TBH, Religion is a man made thing. I do not believe in heaven or hell, but I do believe that when we die, our spirits come out of our body and do go to a specific place.

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

Maybe it cuz of that thar yin and yang thang! maybe s one cant exist without the other. kinda like the elephant man. no, mybe like jueckle and hide. or tom and jerry. They need each other like lucy needs ricky!

I see alot of posts saying "it's all about free will" and I agree with you.
BUT...
Try to look at it from God's point of view. The view from a God that is ALL KNOWING, and omni-present. According to the Bible, an all-knowing God sees our lives like a painting. Just a "timeless" journey of free will. Our birth is also seen with our death in one image, and God already knows the path that we will make. (the best way I can describe it)
Sure, we make the decisions, but God knows the path we will choose. With that said, why would God allow some of us to exist KNOWING our path leads to hell?
I guessing that there really isn't an answer. No one can give absolute facts to back their beliefs, and it's all based on faith. It's just confusing to me why God would think that this way is the best way.

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
Sure, we make the decisions, but God knows the path we will choose. With that said, why would God allow some of us to exist KNOWING our path leads to hell?
I guessing that there really isn't an answer. No one can give absolute facts to back their beliefs, and it's all based on faith. It's just confusing to me why God would think that this way is the best way.

So you think that God should just destroy you before you're even born, because you're going to make bad decisions? Ignoring the obvious paradox about you not making those decisions, because you've been destroyed, consider that you are more than just your birth and your death. The things that you do during your life impact those around you, for good or for ill, but those interactions help mold others. Destroying you before you were even born takes all of that away.

If you haven't seen Capra's film "It's a Wonderful Life", look around the TV Guide next Christmas, it's practically omni-present itself

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
Sure, we make the decisions, but God knows the path we will choose. With that said, why would God allow some of us to exist KNOWING our path leads to hell?
I guessing that there really isn't an answer. No one can give absolute facts to back their beliefs, and it's all based on faith. It's just confusing to me why God would think that this way is the best way.

So you think that God should just destroy you before you're even born, because you're going to make bad decisions? Ignoring the obvious paradox about you not making those decisions, because you've been destroyed, consider that you are more than just your birth and your death. The things that you do during your life impact those around you, for good or for ill, but those interactions help mold others. Destroying you before you were even born takes all of that away.

If you haven't seen Capra's film "It's a Wonderful Life", look around the TV Guide next Christmas, it's practically omni-present itself

If I'm destined for hell, then I would rather choose non-existence. lol

a man or woman cannot understand the supernatural things of god...like his word ...it is foolishness to them unless that man or women receives the spirit...or in other words..the spirit enters into them...its a supernatural process.

once a person decides to accept christ....they have to turn their back to the world and never look back....there is a plan of salvation...its in Acts 2:38

there has to be a sacrifice made...saying no to the world and its lustful selfish satisfactions...and believe me it is a sacrifice to say no to the flesh....i struggle every day....satan is very powerful but the creator is the most high....and once the creator is walking with you...satan has no power over you....you have the eyes to see the how the spiritual realm works now...to make the right decisions..you now have spiritual discernment....but the man without the spirit doesn't.....he cant see or understand the spiritual realm....but your decisions are still up to you.....satan isnt going down without a fight.

once you make a decision to turn from his empire he will attack using anything that comes to mind....but as long as your in the world he's not worried and usually leaves a person alone to their own selfish ways. only a few will make it to the end. but i believe when a person sees thru the matrix and understands the truth and makes a daily effort to shun the world and its babylonian selfish ways...our creator will give them strength to endure to the end.

but a person does have to have the spirit to understand the mysteries of the bible....otherwise its all just a bunch of stories written by man....its much more than that...its a gift to the ones who choose to seek the truth. its a supernatural manual on whats goin on on this planet. if you chose not to seek the truth then thats up to you. the creator is coming back soon to take his people away from this chaos. he has prepared a place that words cant describe. there will be no flesh there...no suffering or pain or murder or television pushing sex on our children 24/7...or giant greedy governments who make the people suffer for their gain...or torture or massive oil spills that fills up whole oceans......mans empire is all garbage.....its a lie and there is no stopping it until the return of our creator. satan has come to kill steal and destroy but there is a way out.



I Corinthians 2:10-14

10God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.





[edit on 5-7-2010 by Funkydung]

[edit on 5-7-2010 by Funkydung]

Originally posted by Baloney
reply to post by AHustler

 

There are WAY more similarities involved than that site discusses! MANY MORE!!

please, list them...i'll be sure to take the time out to look at and compare those supposed similarities

What I find humorous is the similarities that the author DOES acknowledge, is disputed as being copied POST JESUS-era from faiths that PRE-DATE Jesus!! COME ON!!!! So these OLDER faiths WERE RECENTLY ALTERED TO SOUND LIKE JESUS??!!!!

you must have misread the introduction, it is the oldest known TEXTS of said religions used in the article that either A) pre-date the jewish origin of christianity but the similarites are not there or superficial, as with the horus correlation, or B) post-date the jewish origins of christianity and have similarities (ie.buddhism, mithraism , in which case, since said religions oldest texts post-date christianity, it leaves arguement open for said religion to have actually copied. staying scientific, since we were not around at the creations of these religions personally to observe, all we can go on is what archaeology and dating of said texts tell us...and if you wanna go down the road of carbon and other dating methods not being accurate, well then, it gives the similarity arguement even less credence since all sides will be able to claim older texts....

At least you put actual EFFORT into it which is WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY more than any others of the faith do in a lifetime. Therefore I honestly and GENUINELY salute you, but must say "NAY" to that info.

i try... :/

Originally posted by Baloney
reply to post by AHustler

 

All in all, regardless of whether or not there are some slight differences in the SAME basic laws, teachings, miracles, etc, etc, the MOST important thing is the FACT that there is NOTHING NEW OR UNIQUE ABOUT JESUS!!

NOTHING!!!!!!!!

Minor disputes over MINOR discrepancies CANNOT change that FACT!

There is NOTHING original about Jesus!

i beg to differ, but i have a feeling there'll be no convincing you no matter what kind of evidence is provided short of seeing the Messiah yourself...

reply to post by MikeboydUS

This is my personal opinion.

I think reincarnation is a misinterpretation.

When a human comes into existence, its due to the Breath of Life from HaShem entering the dust. The combination of that dust and breath is a unique Nephesh.

I would tend to agree with this however with a variation, this is more the act of creation of the entire universe rather then the way each human is created individually IMO.

When a person dies, the dust returns to the earth, and the breath returns to HaShem. The unique consciousness or personality goes to "sleep", a state of unconsciouness called Sheol.

Here is how I see it; God used the word or breath if you will to create everything. God breathed out and created the vibration which created the world. When he takes the in-breathe it will retract and the universe will be no more, but he will breath out another then a new Universe begins again in that breathe. This universe is still expanding so the breath is still breathing out.

The breath reunites with the Ruach of HaShem, like a breath returning to the air. It disperses.

Then another human is about to come into existence, HaShem gives them the Breath of Life. The breath has recycled.

The way I understand it is we were all part of the divine space or the breath that god breathed out as you term it. When we made a decision to gather the light and matter or intelligence to a point in the divine space we became a unique point of light in that space and as we gather more intelligence and more experience we progress through the various levels that point of light that is us remains unique and grows and expands in light and knowledge. In other words we retain our identity through the cycles and progression on the divine planes and the physical planes and those in between including the cycles of rebirth and death on this plane. This intelligence that makes us ourselves does not get recycled thus loosing all our experiences and progression unless we refuse to progress at some point in our evolution and no progress is made for aeons, or when this universe folds back in on it self and we start over again in trillions of years.

The Buddhist view of rebirth is very similar to this. In this sense the Breath of Life is recycled, but the unique personality created from the combination of dust and breath is different.

I agree the personality may be different in a new life however we are still ourselves. That same point of light we originally decided to gather to ourselves. Otherwise how do you account for regressions and past life memories if we do not retain all experience and use it to progress and evolve through the planes of existence. Also Some Buddhist would ask to be able to join certain families in thier next incarnation and even give some of their favorite stuff to that family so they would have it when they return etc.

Some Buddhist teachings have been watered down over time and even lost. and this is one of them IMO.

The Dalai Lama performed a very good analogy of this with fire, using a candle. He lit one candle with another and blew the other candle out. The flames are connected but different. He said this is how Buddhism views reincarnation. The Buddhist word for the concept is "evolving or streaming consciousness".

As I said I tend to agree with this and that is a good analogy, however it misses the mark in my opinion with respect to individual reincarnation. It is a generalization of the one great life and not of individual incarnation for each of us.

In my view, each of the unique Nepheshim produced by the recycling of the Neshama (breath), will be ressurrected during the Last Judgement.

There are a number of implications if the breath is recycled.
1. We are all linked in some manner by our "breath" or spirit.
2. The breath functions like a spiritual DNA that we inherit and pass on.
3. We have spiritual relatives, distinct from our physical relatives.

Again I tend to agree with a slight variation. The Spirit is not necessarily the breath. Again it only makes sense in relation to the one great life or breath we are all a part of but makes no sense in light of past life regressions and the many evidences of living past lives and being able to recall them. Yes the breath of God is what we live in and have our being in so to speak however our individual identity is our decision to occupy a point of the divine space it does not get recycled with each incarnation it progresses in light and knowledge until it knows all things.

There is a point that begins to be energized, that draws matter to itself. When it draws enough matter it explodes into a star. We are the stars of heaven! The point that has been there is you, but when you decided to occupy space then the form appears. You put your intelligence into the space to create matter. It was a decision, our decision.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO

First of all, where the King James translation reads "eternal damnation", the original Greek would be more correctly translated as "judgement age during" or "judgement unto the end of the age". Now, that implies that there is a dimension where karma gets paid, but it's not eternal, and it is created by the choices a person makes.
Really evil people (think BP) are not just your average person tempted by the flesh. God judges us by our motives, not our deeds. Really evil people do horrible rituals and get pleasure from cruelty. You have probably never met anyone that evil. I hope I never have, but I know they exist. They live in a demon infested reality for reasons of family history and dna, mostly. In the bigger picture, they as souls have gone down that path because someone had to choose it in a creation that allows for ego individuality and free will. It's the shadow side of the collective expressing itself, and it is a part of every one of us. They create a hell for themselves, but it is not eternal. We have all chosen hell for ourselves at times in our lives. Being saved just means remembering that you are a child of God and that you are worthy of God's love. Jesus tried to spread that truth to everyman, unlike the secret societies who make you pay dearly for the hidden truths. The truth is that we are co creators with God and we are worthy of abundant lives. That was Jesus' message.
btw, Jesus went into hell to set people free when he was dead for three days, or so the story goes. Whether or not it is myth or literal, it still implies the same thing, that hell is not eternal.
Eternal damnation is part of the roman conspiracy teachings.
Quan Yin (the Holy Spirit) waits lovingly for all souls to eventually give up duality for unity, or as Jesus said "if I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men unto me." and he said this in reference to how he was to die.
His death guarenteed the ultimate salvation of all souls, even Tony Hayworth. Hell is not eternal.