The Feminist Movement—Ruining The Image Of Men

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I agree with you completely. I have nothing against women. However, I do have something against women who have something against men. I believe that the feminist movement as well as some others out there, such as the atheist movement, seem to be destroying culture and what it means to be a man.

When this is over, the world will not be a satisfying place to live in. But, as I would expect an atheist to say, life is not meant to be fullfilling.

But let's not forget that men evolved / exist for a reason. They think the way they do for a reason. What is going to happen when they do not exist anymore?

A few things I can think of: people will be afraid to work together towards a common goal, have common values, trust each other and be altruistic. This will be replaced by individual goals, business partners that are unwilling to do more or talk about more than the business at hand, and justice, respectively. Also, I would not be surprised if temporal thinking and problem solving were replaced with stagnation and complaints.

The world will be a terrible place to live in. Sure, you can live alone without any friends, walk to the burger joint, have a nice conversation with the guy there, but he doesn't really give a # about you other than that, he won't even remember you other than that. Sure, meet up with a girl for sex you met online and then go your separate ways, not even caring about each other's lives, finding it rude to ask. Honesty, it sounds like the sh*ttiest life experience I could think of ever but that is how I see our future.

It won't even be possible to have close friends or a family because everyone will have had such bad experiences that they won't trust anyone else anymore. Not only that, with so many different value systems floating around (to the point where I swear it almost seems like tribalism is starting up in this country, with little tribes of people floating around each with their own set of values), it will be nearly impossible to meet someone else's standards no matter how much you wanted to.

This scares me. I don't want to live in a world like the one I am seeing emerge. And I don't think anyone else does, either. This is a world where you put on your happy face, go to work, don't feel content, but think to yourself "life isn't supposed to be better, it never was."

This is not true. Life was better. When men are allowed to be men, they tear through society, putting selfish, immature people in their places, making sure that everyone gets along. It becomes a place where you can go to the store, and if someone starts a conversation with you, know they have good intentions in mind, and you have the freedom to do the same. It also becomes a place where people are disciplined and educated enough to actually be able to provide for themselves and their families, own land, and keep the government from micromanaging their lives.

This, in turn, actually allows women to have better life experiences because they are able to exist in a world where men make sure that everything is running smoothly while still doing their feminist activities and hopefully getting to their full potential.

Let's take an example of a typical rule set in place by real men: don't have sex before marriage. Of course, atheists and feminists would love to tear this rule to pieces. However, the fact remains that this rule allows people to have healthier, more fulfilling relationships with their spouse that last more than anywhere from ten minutes to a year, if lucky. The quality of the relationship between two people of the opposite sex in this society has gone to sh*t, and I expect it to somehow continue to get even worse in the future. I have been told by many women than they are not supposed to be more than pieces of meat, they don't even REMEMBER what it is like to have someone who loves and cares for you, how much better the sex is.

In my opinion, if feminists really gave a sh*t about respecting women, they would start supporting and listening to what people like I am saying. If atheists actually cared about people's life experiences, they would as well. Unfortunately, it seems to have become too late.

reply to post by darkbake

I believe that the feminist movement as well as some others out there, such as the atheist movement, seem to be destroying culture and what it means to be a man.

In order to fully understand your opinion, i need to know your deffinition of what it means to be a man. Please be specific. Thank you in advance.

This is not true. Life was better. When men are allowed to be men, they tear through society, putting selfish, immature people in their places, making sure that everyone gets along. It becomes a place where you can go to the store, and if someone starts a conversation with you, know they have good intentions in mind, and you have the freedom to do the same. It also becomes a place where people are disciplined and educated enough to actually be able to provide for themselves and their families, own land, and keep the government from micromanaging their lives.
-------------------------------------------------------------

life was better....
for whom??
men????

it was men who hired little kids out to mining companies and factories, in many states, the women had no legal right to object to the idea....
and, well, seems that was the only time when the lower working class women didn't have to work!!
what was it, greed, selfishness, irresponsibility, that prompted men to write laws in the first place that gave women so little power that they couldn't even protect their children from long work days in dangerous mines and factories? that legally declared the wife's earnings as his, so well, if he was so irresponsibility that he drank the grocery money at the nearby saloon, she was forced to sit there and just accept it, heck couldn't even go into the saloon to drag his arse out?? two pay scales in the workplace, one for women, one for man, entire sectors of the economy out of reach of women, spousal rape consdered legal, incest and rape laws not enforced? child support not enforced.....

life was better for whom.....the wealthier middle and upper class who's hubands made more than enough money so the wives had plenty of time to sit in their socials and discuss how wrong the rest of us were living, how we should be home with our kids, not working and plot and plan just how they would get us back into our roles? those middle and upper class men, who were recieving the bulk share of the profits from the labor of low paid women and children (because they had men taking care of them!!!)? or men in general, who had no laws enforced on them that went beyond the walls of his home, who had gov't and god there to help enforce his "divine" rulership over the family, and wives that were often not too apt to challenge much of his decisions, since well, that could lead to legal abuse, abandonment, and proverty for her and her kids???

ya I imagine life was better back then.....if you were a man!! it was even much better if you were a man with some means.....
and well, ya, the image of men was probably alot better back then, since alot of the deeds that he may do was kept within the confines of his own home and unknown to the world!

you really think it was better???
don't value our education much do you???
or are you someone who was born into a rich family that wouldn't have needed you working at age 7 so mom could sit home and play servant to dad and had the funds to send you off to school???

reply to post by dawnstar


Why do Feminists need to highlight their "past oppression" to justify their underachieving compared to men in certain fields?

Why are women so under-represented in politics? OPPRESSION.

Why are there so few female C.E.Os? OPPRESSION.

Why can only a handful of female writers make the Best Writers list? OPPRESSION.

It's an excuse that is wearing very thin. Hard work and determination are more often than not the ingredients to achieve success, NOT simply being a man. If Feminists want to know why so few women exist in these areas, perhaps it is because the number of those determined is much lower than men in these fields.

I could easily argue that men are under-represented in the Beauty Salon industry. Why could this be? Perhaps there are more determined women working in this field than men. But that answer is too simple, so I will just say it's because of OPPRESSION.

And this thing about women having no choice is such garbage. Either you are somebody that can take care of yourself without the assistance of somebody else or you are not. A man or woman that enters a marriage to quell feelings of insecurity will probably not experience happiness or fulfilment.

[edit on 14/6/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by dawnstar


And it was men who took the ancient writings and removed all trace of women of power or importance so that the modern religions would see women as "less than" the man.

I happen to think a world of equality between women and men and void of religious dogma, pressure and ritual would be a GREAT place to be. Atheism only threatens men in that men are built up to be the important ones in the surviving holy texts.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I happen to think a world of equality between women and men and void of religious dogma, pressure and ritual would be a GREAT place to be. Atheism only threatens men in that men are built up to be the important ones in the surviving holy texts.

You know BH this is one of the most interesting points i have seen in the thread. Religion is of course a controlling mechanism which is very centered on male control (although some religions differ but lets stick with the mainstream for now). Is this maybe why some religious men are so against atheism? Instead of it simply upsetting them that some people don't believe in god maybe they are scared they will lose control over women. Of course religion doesn't just control women but that is a big part of the teachings in many religions.

I think people underestimate the role of atheism in furthering equality. Of course you can still get sexist atheists, both male and female however being an atheist does mean one more barrier to equality is removed.

Great post BH.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Is this maybe why some religious men are so against atheism?

I think most religious people are against atheism, male or female, but I do think with many religious men (not all) it adds an additional aspect that threatens their position as male and dominate being in the household, in society and in the world, yes.

Of course, many atheists are against religion because of the control aspect as well. I am not anti-religion at all, as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. I actually fully support people's freedom of religion, as long as its within the bounds of their lives and does not cross over into mine, by religious laws, proselytizing, government establishment of religion, etc.

I think people underestimate the role of atheism in furthering equality.

I think you're right. But many women, atheist or not, still prefer the traditional roles of man and woman and I think that's fine. Ultimately, what I think we need is to get our noses out of OTHER people's business and live the way we choose and let others live the way they choose. I don't care if people want to go to church 5 times a day and pray for hours on end. It's none of my business, but when they start making laws that I can't do with my body what I choose, or marry whom I choose, or be the female head of my household if I choose, because "it's in the bible", that's where I start kicking and screaming about religion.

[edit on 6/14/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

The TV shows and commercials these guys are complaining about, along with numerous other institutions, are primarily being produced by men.

Think on it for a while.

Originally posted by Edrick

If we are talking about the "Old FashionedNess" of the "Places" of Men and Women....


Then we need to talk about defending the country VS people with Guns and Tanks.

Hence... Pick up a weapon, and Stand at post.

I must be particularly thick headed lately, because I still dont get this one.

Originally posted by Edrick
You were attacking Masculinity as a Grab for Power in the Argument.

I shoved it back in your face.


Smell Good?

Well, that isnt how I intended it. I dont think "masculinity" is a grab for power. At all. I think forcing another person to behave in certain ways they themselves would not choose simply to protect your masculinity is a grab for power.

The men I know, and have known throughout my life who are most masculine in fact, true Alpha males by anyones definition, have not been the type who are always trying to get women to fall into some specific behavior pattern. No matter what anyone is doing, they are still masculine. Still "alpha." The men I have met in my life who are the MOST insistent on women behaving in certain ways, and staying in a role that suits them, have not been alpha males. They have been much more subordinate males, and the reason they are yelping to force women into a more submissive role is that they are at the bottom of the pack of all males, and they dont want to be any lower in the hierarchy.

Women love true alphas. I personally dont see where all this "women want men to be feminine" stuff comes from. Most women love masculinity. I just think some lesser men confuse ACTING masculine with being masculine. Pretending to be something you naturally arent is less attractive and betrays your insecurity, and insecurity is unattractive to both genders. Confidence is sexy.

As for all the make up stuff. Who cares? Who said there werent insecure women? Besides, I am not completely convinced that the parallel being drawn is an accurate one. Even confident men and women choose attractive clothes, hairstyles, and men lift weights, women exercise too, in order to attract a mate. I think there are some who are so dependent upon make-up and clothes that it does betray a deep insecurity, but I dont think ALL use of those two things is evidence of insecurity.

Originally posted by Edrick
I am citing an example of where women do the exact thing that you are speaking of.

You dont have to sell me on the idea that some women are as insecure as some men. I am not an absolutist. Both groups have members who are secure, and that are insecure.

Originally posted by Edrick
Binder was talking about BEING NICE TO PEOPLE, so they will be nice to you in return.... and you misunderstood that to an extreme that is embarrasing.

-Edrick

Perhaps I did misunderstand. I am not embarrassed though. I dont think there is anything wrong with being nice to people. As long as being nice to people doesnt mean you are pretending to be something you are not simply to bolster someone elses esteem. Being kind, or appreciative, or respectful of another human is what people should be doing anyway.

Where I disagree with you is that you should be doing it "so that they will be nice to you." I think that sort of tit for tat is part of the problem Binder describes, and why he says someone needs to be a hero. You shouldnt be kind or nice or respectful of other to get a certain behavior. You should be doing it on principle. You do happen to elicit kindness and respect in return, but your actions should not be dependent upon someone elses.

All of that "Well if he does this I will do that" or if "women do this I will do that" is nonsense in my opinion. Each of us is responsible entirely for how we treat others.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Women love true alphas. I personally dont see where all this "women want men to be feminine" stuff comes from. Most women love masculinity. I just think some lesser men confuse ACTING masculine with being masculine. Pretending to be something you naturally arent is less attractive and betrays your insecurity, and insecurity is unattractive to both genders. Confidence is sexy.

Of course women love alpha males thats what they were designed to do survival of the fittest and all, but that was in the past now you don't need to be fit to survive and propagate, so alpha means something else. And lets no forget idiosyncrasies that individuals have. So since this alpha thing has me lost can you give some examples or what exactly you think is alpha? and how exactly can one act masculine, unless you mean gay dudes acting out of there perspective being. How exactly can a male act masculine, most likely if hes acting one way its because he is that way.

If we are talking about the "Old FashionedNess" of the "Places" of Men and Women.... Then we need to talk about defending the country VS people with Guns and Tanks. Hence... Pick up a weapon, and Stand at post.

I can't really speak for what exactly edrick meant here, but he is right If you want to be equal or more equalized then you can't expect someone to die for you while you stay back home and whine about it. And don't give me that rhetoric that some have taken now a days about men like war and are evil or tptb created all wars and the military, so we should get rid of army's. You know it does not work like that as soon as you get rid of all guns and army's those that still have guns and army's will come and take all your things and women will be on that list to be taken, and men on the list to be shot. And tptb create wars that's true, but they didn't create all wars or the concept of we should have army's to protect ourself's. If your stupid enough to believe what some dude in a suit and tie says about his former business partner from a oil rich country and why you all should go there and die for his business interests. Thats your problem. deny ignorance and all that. And sure boys and men like to go join the army and some think it will be fun and all. Till the bombs and bullets start flying over head then they change there mind.

reply to post by Dark Ghost

so, well....
when was it that it was so much better than it is now???

place a date on it!!!

since this was what I was responding to....the
"oh things were so much better when women didn't have to work"
oh, things were so much better.....
WHEN???

way back in isreal, after their kings got ticked at his wife and commanded every wife in the nation to be obedient to their wives???

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

so, well....
when was it that it was so much better than it is now???

place a date on it!!!

The "Good Old Days" are the Good Old Days - - due to Selective memory.

The right to Be Who You Are - - is always better then being forced to fit a role society has chosen for you.

reply to post by dawnstar

so, well.... when was it that it was so much better than it is now??? place a date on it!!!

Unless i'v read wrong I don't think anybody has said that it was heaven or more better back in those days. All they said is why break something that worked well, just because it didn't work so well for some women or even a lot of women does not mean it didn't work for all and you have to get rid of the whole system. Quit trying to blame all males for the bad choices that females make, its getting old. Everybody has choices to make and if those women chose to get tied to a abusive man or whatever that is there choice.

This is a very popular topic by the looks of things.
There is no way I have the time to read all of the posts, so I will just post my thoughts on this.

I have met a few "metro sexuals" at my school, the girls all seem to go for them or the 'psycho' ones. Girls all seem to think its all about themselves, and that guys aren't as good as them. I agree with equality, I have regualry said that I agree with equal rights, it means that I can hit girls as well as guys. I have thankfully never had to exercise my right though, it usually gets them to leave me alone

I am not wanting to put anyone down, but my understanding of womans rights is equal rights, not women ahead of men.

The world is full on males. There are few real men. Being a male doesn't make you a man. Being a man doesn't make you a father. Having a child doesn't make you a father, it makes you a male with a kid or if you've progressed, a man with a kid.

Most men in the world are not functioning as we should due to our fathers lettting go of responsibility. It has little to do with the feminists. They only got stronger as the man shirked his responsibility. When the man decreased the woman stood up and tried (unsuccessfully) to fill the void.

I've seen men so weak, my wife (who willingly defers responsibility to me) is stronger than these men in every way. And these weak men married or live with dominant women to make up the void.

Men have ruined the image of men... not the feminists.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

If we are talking about the "Old FashionedNess" of the "Places" of Men and Women....


Then we need to talk about defending the country VS people with Guns and Tanks.

Hence... Pick up a weapon, and Stand at post.

I must be particularly thick headed lately, because I still dont get this one.

If men's place is on the battlefield... then women's place is in the kitchen.


You cannot be free of society determining your place, if you wqill not reguard OTHERS with the same respect that you demand.

It's the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


Men hold the most dangerous jobs on the planet...

BECAUSE THEY MUST BE DONE, AND WOMEN WILL NOT DO IT!


Oh, sure... one or two token females will step up to the plate.. but their contribution does not balance the demand of EQUAL TREATMENT from the ENTIRE Female population.

Rights are EARNED... not GIFTED to you.


Participation in Government IMPLIES Contribution In Government Affairs.


Hence, Pick Up A Weapon And Stand To Post.

Originally posted by Edrick
You were attacking Masculinity as a Grab for Power in the Argument.

I shoved it back in your face.

Smell Good?

Well, that isnt how I intended it. I dont think "masculinity" is a grab for power.

No, that is not what I meant...


I *MEANT* that YOUR QUOTE (That I responded To) *WAS* an attack on masulinity... and YOUR attempt to Grab Power in *THIS* discussion by attempting to Ridicule ALL OF YOUR POSSIBLE OPPONENTS as "Having A Desicive Lack OF Testicles"

This is an Ad Homenim Attack Strategy as an Attempt to Ridicule.

The fact that you would Stoop to this tactic in your FIRST POST, indicates VERY CLEARLY the ammount of confidence you hold of YOUR OWN ARGUMENATIVE POSITION.

Or Don't you have the OVARIES to Defend your Blatent Attack?

Perhaps I did misunderstand. I am not embarrassed though.

As long as you are willing to admit the possibility, and study it with the attention that it deserves, Then you should be fine.

And misunderstandings occur all of the time... it is our ability to see through these miscommunications that enable progress.

-Edrick

[edit on 14-6-2010 by Edrick]

[edit on 14-6-2010 by Edrick]

Originally posted by Edrick
Men hold the most dangerous jobs on the planet...

BECAUSE THEY MUST BE DONE, AND WOMEN WILL NOT DO IT!

In fairness Edrick the most dangerous jobs often involve serious physical labour and men are more biologically suited to that. So it seems unfair to criticise women because they don't do more of these jobs. While some women join the armed forces they often need to use equalizing measures during training to keep up with the men.

You are saying that because women aren't required to fight for their country then they shouldn't be afforded the same rights. Well what about the disabled? The disabled are not required to fight for their country so does that mean they should give up their rights as well?

If you say this isn't the same then i ask why not? Women are less physically suited to the work just as disabled people are less suited to it.

Originally posted by daggyz

Most men in the world are not functioning as we should due to our fathers lettting go of responsibility. It has little to do with the feminists. They only got stronger as the man shirked his responsibility. When the man decreased the woman stood up and tried (unsuccessfully) to fill the void.



Men have ruined the image of men... not the feminists.

I definitely agree with this. I see other men being so wrapped up in the behaving or acting out their maleness that theyre not actually mentoring their own sons on anything. Fathers are definitely letting the side down by too much posturing and angst and not enough leading by example.

For the record, feminism died out a coupla decades ago and blaming feminism for everything shows a defeatist attitude which is far from masculine and even further from useful. IMHO.

Originally posted by Dammo
I definitely agree with this. I see other men being so wrapped up in the behaving or acting out their maleness that theyre not actually mentoring their own sons on anything. Fathers are definitely letting the side down by too much posturing and angst and not enough leading by example.

For the record, feminism died out a coupla decades ago and blaming feminism for everything shows a defeatist attitude which is far from masculine and even further from useful. IMHO.

Sorry but this is a ridiculous statement, feminism died out? If that were true then women wouldn't have equal rights and people like Germaine Greer wouldn't be writing weekly columns on feminist issues.

As for the men not mentoring their sons this is again a load of rubbish. Most fathers are good at being a dad, it is only the occasional moron that messes things up. You have no facts to back up this comment of yours, generalising about men. How about i do the same to women.

Women are all so caught up in material worth, getting the latest handbag, latest clothes, all the expensive makeup that they don't look after their kids and are actvely doing harm as their example is a bad one.

This is of course a stupid generalisation but it's exactly what you just did about other men, and yeah i know you're a guy but blanket statements are not a good thing when they are obviously false.

Apologies for generalising but sometimes its hard to have an opinion without doing so. Germaine Greer writes columns in the Guardian newspaper but they arent all on feminism. Feminism (IMHO) was a wave bordering on being militant at times and theres nothing like that now.

Women generally still earn less per dollar than men do and to me that should be an issue at the very core of feminism. A lot women these days claim to not be feminists, I guess its fallen out of favour.

On fathers, my point was that many fathers are so heavy on acting male and doing male things like fishing, car stuff, sport etc with their sons but display an almost adversarial relationship with women in general. This fearmongering about feminists doesnt help.

In my everyday life, I cant say Im being stood over by marauding feminists in jackboots. Its all a bit of a beat up, I think.