The Feminist Movement—Ruining The Image Of Men

reply to post by nunya13



This is not quite accurate. The Suffragette movement actually deliberately excluded black women. In fact they were outraged at black men having the vote and not white women. The suffragette’s political strategy was clearly based on racism. This situation led to Sojourner Truth’s famous “ain’t I a woman speech” which was given at the Ohio women’s rights convention in Akron in 1851.

Here is a link

en.wikipedia.org...

Also the issue of racism in the women’s movement led to the decline in readership and collapse of the British feminist magazine Spare Rib in the early 90s.

I am not seeking to derail the thread. What I am seeking to demonstrate is that feminism has always had a sectional interest that pits the needs of one section of feminists against another as it is a movement as opposed to a political party. It is inevitable that a section would corruptly use the movement’s rhetoric to attack the other (men). I still maintain that the pendulum will swing towards equality for all.

reply to post by Edrick


Well the failure of feminism was it was an entirely gender-based analysis of the world. It suffered major credibility issues when looking at the issue of politics and the inherently brutal and self-serving nature of capitalism. Arguing about male power is skewed when most men are in fact wage slaves.

TPTB have simply taken on feminist rhetoric and promoted a few token women and mostof the steam has been taken out of the debate that raged in the 80s.

reply to post by Tiger5


Interesting point you raise.

History is speckled with revolutions that excluded certain socio economic groups. For example Martin Luther was horrified at the thought of giving serfs their freedom when he nailed his 95 thesis to the church door that sparked the reformation and brought Latin christianity to the local population, not to be bought from the church in the form of indulgences...and all practiced in a local vernacular that could be understood.

Certainly without the well to do women who were educated in the late 19th early 20th century the suffragette movement would likely not have happened, their biases and addiction to class structure remained in place initially, contradicting their claim to equality, but not lessening their need to change the perception of women...baby steps were required, and the womens movement to be relatively peaceful required buy in from the "power classes" of society to make it work. Its important to remember what it started, not just giving women the vote. We should celebrate our gender differences, and not claim one is better for more powerful than the other, Claiming equality is simply asking to be respected and not dominated because of the reproductive organs you were born with.



[edit on 10-6-2010 by zazzafrazz]

reply to post by Tiger5

Well the failure of feminism was it was an entirely gender-based analysis of the world.

Exactly.... It's the Elites Well Worn tactic of Divide and Conquer.

The exact same "All of the Issues are Black and White ONLY" crap that they spew out for every other "Division" issue that they can find.

Like Democrats vs Republicans for example.

One person screams "Democrats are the Best!"

The other Screams in response "Republicans are the best!"

All the while, both parties are maintained by the same group of wealthy elite.



The Feminist movement screams "Women Have Been Oppressed!"

When the Truth is.... EVERYONE has been oppressed, EXCEPT FOR THE ELITE.


It is a half truth that is designed to make women angry enough to "Smash the Patriarchy"

And what is the End result?


Yeah... women got the "Right to Vote" (*Chuckle*).... but what exactly does voting do?



www.public.asu.edu...

Women got the "Right" to work..... (LOL), but what was the result?

More people in the workforce made the bargaining position of labor MUCH weaker, and enabled the average wage of EVERYONE to be lowered.... thus REQUIRING women to work, instead of passing their culture on to their children while the husband supports the family.

Feminist Slogans of the 1950's
"Housewives Are Unpaid Slaves"
"Oppressed Women: Don't Cook a Dinner! Starve a Rat Today!"
"End Human Sacrifice! Don't Get Married!"
"Washing Diapers Is Not Fulfilling."

Feminism is an ATTACK on women's choices, disguised as "Liberation"

It would be hilarious in its Irony, if it weren't so tragic.

Arguing about male power is skewed when most men are in fact wage slaves.

DING DING DING!!!!

Judges?


WE HAVE A WINNER!

TPTB have simply taken on feminist rhetoric

Yup...




Put THAT one in your pipe and smoke it!



"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


-Edrick

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Edrick]

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Edrick]

when did women get "the right to work"???

in the 1920's when they got the right to vote??? na....don't think so!!
otherwise...well, all these women here:
www.ilr.cornell.edu...
well.....obviously they weren't working, since they didn't have the "right to work", so what where they doing locked in a danged factory????
before industrialization came around the women would be making candles, sewing, weaving baskets, or cloth, they had many opportunities to use their skills to create items that they could then sell or trade with another for something they needed. but well....industrialization moved all that work out of the homes and into the factories....and the women were forced to follow, since the quilts, candles and all that were now being produced much faster and cheaper than they could produce them. once that happened, the family needed more money to buy all this stuff that were once being made by the wife, or the neighbor's wife, ect. heck, before industrialization alot of the men didn't have jobs either, they worked on their own farms, grew their own crops, ect...which they then could trade or sell to buy what little they needed....

okay, we allowed industrialization, susposedly, it made our lives easier....
but, well...the factories, once that had a footing, didn't want to pay crap for the labor, at one point it took five or six people in the family working to earn enough for the family to live!!! no one earned "the right to work"....what we've been striving for is the right to fair labor practices, fair wages, the freedom from exploitation....and what the powers that be have been fighting for is the right to slave labor!!!

and obviously, what we haven't acheived, and probably never will, is to obtain both the right of the ptb to have unlimited wealth while the rest of us have those fair wages, fair labor standards!!! since well, once we tried to establish them in the western developed countries, what did the companies do?? they shipped their jobs over to countries where they can pollute all they want, have their slave labor for pennies on the dollar, and basically run the same program that they did when they could own slaves!!

at least when they owned the slaves, they had to invest in those slaves when they bought them, they had to train those slaves to do the work they wanted them to do, and they had to at least give them minimal food, clothing, and shelter for them survive!!!
can you do that on minimum wage now???

feminism failed because when it came time to pass the era (which would have extended the responsibilities over to women) failed to go through. instead they offered the women a bone, welfare. which, too many women settled for, because well...society just wasn't set up for them to actually be able to take hold of that responsibility at the time.....
it wasn't till that welfare became so big, so monstrous, that the gov't even saw fit to enforce the child support system.
we started out with kings and popes with god given rights to rule without question, earned the right to read the holy words that they used to justify their power, earned the right to stand up to those kings and popes, and well.....gained our freedom, but when it came to extending those rights to women, we faltered.....the women were just offered a different lord than their husbands.....the gov't welfare system!
so, well, we are in the mess we are in now, and we are all weather you want to acknowledge it or not, heading backwards.....women never truly got their freedom, and the men are loosing it....tpb are gaining more and more power.

the head of the man is god, the head of the women is man....every man is a king, at least in his own home......nice bribe there, don't ya thing, play by the rules guys, and you can rule your own little kingdom....but well, then there will always be another over you, you've been trained since birth to accept that natural structure of power. your dad gave a command and your mom and kids just kind of naturally obliged without question.....now, well, you are the ma, rule your home, as the king, your lord deems fit for you to rule....the king will give your command, and you will naturally oblige without question.....
one decade you might have a good king, who rules wisely, and well, because of him, the whole kingdom will reflect his goodness...but well, all kings eventually die...and are replaced. that next king might not be as good, and well......the whole kingdom will reflect his evil....the pope will tell you it is because of your sins, it's God's judgement for the evil in your heart....
and well...the power structure will remain....

it's a power structure that is learned in the "traditional family" home.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by dawnstar]

as for the "men are the cannon fodder" bit....

okay, while the patriots were off fighting the to gain freedom from england, the women were left to tend the home, manage the plantation, ya know, they took over those things that their husbands were doing!! unless of course those brits got close to home, then they were probably alongside the men, rifle in hand!!

but which would you prefer??
staying behind, doing a balancing act between hearth keeper, child raiser, factory worker, and all that, or well....
fighting the war?

the fact that throughout history it's been the men fighting the wars kind of tells me that most of the men at that time would have rather done that....


they fight the wars because that's what they chose to do.....
and well, how many men were drafted this year???

reply to post by KyoZero


Two thumbs up...everything you said was exactly how I was thinking!

*stand and applaud*

What many people in this thread do not realise is that so many of their views are influenced by conditioning they have experienced throughout their life. It happens to everyone and is not easy to recognise, especially when you have been exposed to different forms of Western media for most of your life.

Feminism will remain a dirty word until it recognises that men do have rights and deserve respect and tolerance as much as women do. Since doing so would undermine the long-term goals of the movement, such views will not be embraced.

reply to post by eternal_vigilance


appreciated...

That's the whole point I am trying to reach here; similarity does not equal equality. Clearly Raven and I differ in many ways. I am stronger (physically) and she is stronger (mentally). PS I also think she is smarter than me (another topic there). She has a different body and chemical makeup than I. She can give birth where I cannot. She can physically sustain a baby while I cannot.

But all of this means absolutely nothing in the realm of equality. I posted my original thoughts earlier but now I am going to be lazy and borrow from the lovely zazzness up there. Equality isn't about forcibly admitting that women are the exact same, it is about respect and by respect I don’t mean ‘tolerating’ women, I mean waking up and realizing I am no better or worse than they are. They are DIFFERENT…but not lesser. Really this argument has been going on for eons and it will continue to. Look at any realm of group differences and you will see the same three camps.

Camp 1: Group A is better than group B

Camp 2: Group A is equal to group B

Camp 3: Group B is better than group A

Now look at a superb historical example. Please bear in mind that I am using opinions from both supporters and detractors. These are not my thoughts on this specific matter.

Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and the racist white culture. (again…note I said the racist white culture. I am not implying they were all racist by any means)

Camp 1: Certain whites believe they are better than blacks

Camp 2: Martin Luther King preaches true equality, not supremacist thought of any kind.

Camp 3: Malcolm X (before leaving the organization) believes blacks were the original race and thus better.

This whole idea constantly mirrors over and over. The Scottish and the English, black and white, men vs women. In each battle all three camps exist but frankly to me the whole thing is a fraud unless you try to exist in camp 2 where actual equality reigns supreme.

The best example I can come up with is the military. I have been a member of the Air Force for some time now. When I was a 2W2 there were very few women in the sops I was in, specifically the Minuteman III / Mk-12A shop. This was a very skilled and technical job that required a ton of focus, concentration and electrical and mechanical know-how. On the other hand I also at first worked in the ‘Handling’ shop. (Handling is the shop that moves small missiles, bombs and the warheads for the other shop and did maintenance on the moving equipment.) Handling was a much more passé and low-tech job which was fairly easy to do. What’s unique is that in these two shops I saw two types of sexism.

In Mk-12A (the highly technical shop) Our one female airman was practically not allowed to touch anything because there was a lack of trust in her abilities. Whenever a new training or special detail would arise she would volunteer and be turned down for some lame excuse or another. So there she sat, this smart girl cleaning rusty tools.

In the handling shop (the low tech job) the female airman was ALWAYS chosen to do every special detail even if she had not volunteered. This was in spite of all the males raising their hands like that over-eager kid in school who desperately wanted to answer every question.

The funny part was, I thought for a while that the second scenario was at least nice for her because she got to take part in wonderful experiences. She later explained to me that she hated it and wishes she would have been ignored. She was out casted by several of the guys as a teachers pet.

This was part of the problem I had when younger. I always treated girls like dirt when I was a wee one. Finally my dad ‘talked’ some knowledge into me and explained in a calm rational manner –rubs his backside- that they were no more or less than us. So I thought about it and realized he was right. They were to be prized and held on pedestals as the princesses they are. WRONG

I found out after a long and slippery road that they didn’t want that either. (WARNING! Opinion coming!) A real woman wants to be on the same level as me and given the same opportunities as me…period.

Look OP, I am not denying that there are some nasty women out there that fit the somewhat vulgar ‘feminazi’ term. Short of some miracle I don’t think nationalist and sexist thought will ever fully leave humanity. Of course there are women who think they are better than men but they are wrong too.

If you want my honest assessment of the situation, men and women are in limbo right now. We’ve given them the right to vote and work because we progressed. That’s a good thing and many men look at that ‘carrot’ and say, “well we gave you these rights…we’re even.” I disagree once more. Why are we still having a gender pay-gap? Why are we still seeing the need for minority scholarships for women or Native Americans or blacks or Hispanics? Why is this? My opinion is because we are still nowhere close to proper evolution of the mind on a grand scale. Yes we are getting there and slowly we are finding more and more people showing signs of accepting true equality but if had real equality now, there wouldn’t be a need for organizations to defend minorities because there would be no maltreatment.

Thing like jobs, scholarships, and awards would be given solely on merit alone. Women and men as well would compete and be acknowledged for what and who they are on an individual basis, not because of a pair of breasts or the color of their skin. THAT is the world I want to see. Too bad I will be long since dead IF that ever occurs.

My final thought here is on the battlefield. This is currently a huge debate between the military and public as well. Should a woman be allowed on the front line of warfare? There are a thousand reasons that each side can give for why they should or shouldn’t be slowed on but I want to focus on one reason why people say they shouldn’t.

There is a belief I have seen through actions of MEO (Military Equal Opportunity). Some people believe that if a woman died in combat a man wouldn’t be able to cope and would lose their mind and become relatively ineffective in combat. They would fight harder to rescue her from capture over a man. Since when did her life become more valuable than another guy’s? This is absolute bunk to me. So essentially we’re ok if another guy dies in combat but not id SHE dies…THEN the real tragedy strikes.

And this is equality? (WARNING! Second and possibly extremely unpopular opinion coming!) Frankly, while we have afforded rights such as voting, working and education, I think we haven’t come as far as we may think in the emotional, social and mental aspects of gender acceptance and equality. I think we gave those rights because ‘it was the right thing to do.’ The problem is some of the old mindset is still there.

Like I said, of course I know there are a lot of progressive males and females out there. I just wish it were 100% clear across the board. A time in when we can all look past genitalia and just se another equal, albeit unique human sitting across from us. That thought does not make you gay, a pansy, a metro…..

It just makes you real

That is my world that I strive towards in my personal life and yes I do have hiccups from time to time and I mess up but that is the way it is. To err is human right? Well, I am going to keep living my life and my life states that my wife, every other woman out there, every other race, creed, nationality and religious belief is just as good as I am so long as their actions harm none and even if they do, it isn’t my right to judge.

Equality…that’s the life

-Kyo

Originally posted by zerbot565
what on earth is a male feminist ?

A man who understands that women have been and are being oppressed in society (to a lesser degree currently) and believes in and encourages equal treatment of men and women. A man who respects women for their intelligence, strength and unique abilities and sees women as having the same value as men, although in different capacities. A man who feels that women are smart enough and capable to make the decisions about their lives without interference or restriction from anyone else

I'm married to one.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


A good description, i used to consider myself a feminist, then i realised feminism was a sham, tipping the weight in favour of women, so i decided to be an equalist. It seems better Oh you might say it's the same thing as feminism, but even the word feminism isn't equal

[edit on 11-6-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by zazzafrazz

Women have been sold, raped, beaten and oppressed for millennia, and now that we have to work so governments get more tax, and the federal reserves makes more money from us....we are doing the wrong thing by men?

I am not defined by my organs, nor my physical attributes, I am zazz.
A amazon female, that wont let any society rules tell me who I should be in order to keep men in power.

The Islamic countries of the world pretty much treat women how with how we were treated until 50 years ago where you live today.

Thank you, zazzafrazz, for making my point, and yours too. Women are not defined by what they have between their legs, but a lot of men think so, and treat women like a piece of meat, to be devoured. Don't believe me? Go into any biker bar and see for yourself. The time has come for woman to stand up and be counted, and to arm themselves against men raping them, and killing them, just because they are the "weaker sex."

When I met my wife, she was married to a macho man who hates Jews, Black People, Gays, and Women, not in that order particularly. He would gamble their money away each month,
and run with whores, while she sat home, depressed and overweight, and tried to take care of her kids. He would undermine her every time she tried to correct one kid or the other, and let them off. She did all the housework while he laid on the sofa drinking beer. He bought all the groceries, cheap generic foods and pre processed foods, no fruit or fresh veggies. to hear him tell it, she was a lazy cold bitch who did nothing to help, and couldn't even cook a decent meal.

We have been together for 7 years, yes, I took her away from him, and I do not feel bad about it. Amy has shown herself to be smart and a quick learner, she has lost so much weight she looks amazing, and dressed in pretty clothes instead of the men's tee #s and stretch pants he made her dress in, she gets admiring looks from all the men. I taught her to be her Spirit, and seize upon her inner power. She can stand up to anyone now, and take no crap from anyone, not even me. Is she a Feminist? No, but she is a powerful woman whom I am proud to have at my side.

Originally posted by autowrench
Thank you, zazzafrazz, for making my point, and yours too. Women are not defined by what they have between their legs, but a lot of men think so, and treat women like a piece of meat, to be devoured. Don't believe me? Go into any biker bar and see for yourself. The time has come for woman to stand up and be counted, and to arm themselves against men raping them, and killing them, just because they are the "weaker sex."

Hate to burst that bubble of yours but women have all the rights men do so where exactly do women need to stand up? Women in many areas have more rights then men. Also the idea of walking into a biker bar and expecting equality is utterly ridiculous, many bikers still behave in the primitive pack mentality, it goes beyond simple misogyny with such things.

You want to talk about being devoured, man look around. The courts favour women in divorce settlements, they favour them in child custody as well. Or how about another classic, the idea that still exists revolving around men paying for dinner and protecting their wife/girlfriend. I have been put in the situation where a girl i was with got insulted by some random moron and she stared me straight in the eye and used the classic line "are you going to let him talk to me like that?". Now i was a very accomplished martial artist but i'm not about to smack some guy about because he hurt her ego.

When two people start dating you will also find the guy seems to pay for everything, generally speaking of course. If you dare to suggest splitting the cost of stuff you are seen as cheap, if you do pay you can be seen as a misogynist lol.

Women need to stand up? No it's men who need to stand up and ask for their rights to be heard as well. The equality door should swing both ways.

reply to post by dawnstar


Your perspective leaves MUCH to be desired.

okay, while the patriots were off fighting the to gain freedom from england, the women were left to tend the home, manage the plantation, ya know, they took over those things that their husbands were doing!! unless of course those brits got close to home, then they were probably alongside the men, rifle in hand!!

Ok.... do you see the word that I highlighted?

"Probably".....

Can you back up your assertion? or is that just a hollow claim?

but which would you prefer??
staying behind, doing a balancing act between hearth keeper, child raiser, factory worker, and all that, or well....
fighting the war?

Prefer?

Are you kidding Me?

PREFER?

Like men had a choice in the matter?


Seriously... do you know what CONSCRIPTION MEANS?

It means *FORCED MILITARY SERVICE*

Preference does not apply.

the fact that throughout history it's been the men fighting the wars kind of tells me that most of the men at that time would have rather done that....

And the fact that you even SAID that, tells me more about what you think of men that you will ever really admit.

how many men were drafted this year???

Great point... how many women were denied the Vote this year?

How many women were denied work this year?


Seriously... if we are going to talk about shelf life...


-Edrick

reply to post by KyoZero

Equality isn't about forcibly admitting that women are the exact same

Equal:
1. be identical or equivalent to
2. be equal to in quality or ability
3. having the same quantity, value, or measure as another
4. make equal, uniform, corresponding, or matching

So, yes.... That is EXACTLY what Equal means.

Equal is a MATHEMATICAL TERM.


Men and women ARE NOT EQUAL.

NO ONE IS EQUAL.

Equality…that’s the life

Then why are most all species that have ever lived now extinct?


I think that what you *REALLY MEAN* is Equal treatment under the law...

And I can accept that as a worthy goal.

But that is not what we have now, is it?


Nope, we still have men being the only ones forced to register for conscription.

We still have women taking the children in most all divorces, just because they are women.

We still have men paying alimony because they are men.

We still have quotas that enforce the hiring of women, but not men.


Tell me how this is equal treatment under the law.


-Edrick

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

and believes in and encourages equal treatment of men and women.

Do men get maternity leave like women do?

Or would you say that is ridiculous, considering that men and women are not EQUAL in these circumstances? (Given that women have a child inside them, and men don't)


Do men get lowered standards of employment if they are too weak to pull a body from a burning building?

Or are they looked over, because they are weak MEN, as opposed to weak WOMEN?

A man who respects women for their intelligence, strength and unique abilities

WHAT unique abilities?

I thought that men and women were EQUAL, right?

That presumption PRECLUDES any "Unique" abilities.

-Edrick

reply to post by autowrench


Oh, this is going to be Hilarious.

Women are not defined by what they have between their legs

You didn't really just say that, did you?

Lets have a look, shall we?

Woman:
1. an adult female person
2. A woman (irregular plural: women) is a female human.

Ok, so the definition of a woman is using the word "Female" as an integral descriptor.... so what does FEMALE mean?

Female:
1. being the sex (of plant or animal) that produces fertilizable gametes (ova) from which offspring develop
2. an animal that produces gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes (spermatozoa)
3. a person who belongs to the sex that can have babies


So, yeah... Women *ARE* defined as what they have between their legs.

And this is scientifically Documented.


So, you are WRONG, until you want to rephrase your statement.

but a lot of men think so, and treat women like a piece of meat, to be devoured.

And alot of women treat men as a walking ATM, and resource collection point to be devoured.

There, your statement is meaningless.

www.gruts.com...

-Edrick

Originally posted by Edrick
Do men get maternity leave like women do?

It's called Paternity Leave. And yes. They do. Look it up.

Do men get lowered standards of employment if they are too weak to pull a body from a burning building?

Or are they looked over, because they are weak MEN, as opposed to weak WOMEN?

I don't really know the answer to these questions and I'm not at all sure the reason for asking them. Sorry. If you really want the answers, I suggest you do some research.

WHAT unique abilities?

I thought that men and women were EQUAL, right?

As I said on page 9:
When I say that men and women are "equal", I don't mean that they are the same. I mean that they are equal in value, equal under the law, equally intelligent, etc. Of course, generally, men are bigger and women can reproduce, their genitals are different and generally, they have different physical and mental abilities and preferences. So, in the areas that define their gender, they are different, but they are also equal, not the same.

As if Men can't do this on their own? They never had agood image to begin with. Even though their "Religions" and every damn thing under the sun calls women the evil, I think we all know where the true evil comes from...MEN!!!

I think feminism is being used to ruin the image of men, as well as even women.