The Feminist Movement—Ruining The Image Of Men

Don't be so ignorant to think that playing with children, and cleaning your own home is WORTH ANYTHING TO ANYONE BUT YOURSELF.

I agreen generally with what you say, though the delivery can leave a bit to be desired, and I'm a woman.

However, the statment quoted above I have to challenge.

Do you think it is a coincidence that social cohesivness has broken down over the last few generations since the introdction of the idea that women should strive for careers? I don't.

Women have a function dictated by biology, one for which is she is uniqley qualified, she is the "keeper of the hearth". Sadly, many many hearths have been neglected. Look around you, see the results, whole generations of children growing up badly because mum ain't around.

To say that that function has no worth is playing right into the hands of the feminism you despise.

Feminism gave women the choice to forgo this most noble and valuable of path. And women in droves chose the alternative..and now we all pay the price.

Feminsim has failed for me personally as it has changed from a choice to a requirment.

for some, it was never a choice!! tell me, please, when was it that women weren't working?? I've searched hours at old photos employees and company gatherings from as far back as the 1800's.....guess what....there seems to be alot of women in some of them!!
I had to work when it was possible while my kids were growing up (well, not really, I could have kicked hubby out, sent him into the child support hell and been fine), it was the only way we could afford suitable housing, transportation, food and healthcare!
my mom worked...
my grandmother and her mother supported themselves and raised my father, sewing...at home and my grandmother worked for a clothing store sewing suits...
before that, we you are getting into the pre-industrial age, where the women worked, wove clothe, sewed, made candles, gardened, ect......

I think the idea that women stayed home and kept the hearth, took care of the kids while dad brought home the money and supplied needs....well, that was all a fairy tale to begin with....
suitable for only the better offs in society, who insisted that they knew better, and tried to force their way of living on the rest.

still want to know....
I know they would lock the women up in the factories, lest the wander off, did they lock the men up in the factories also....
when you hear of these islamic girls schools buring down, with kids locked inside, do they lock the boys up also???

www.ilr.cornell.edu...

seems to be an awful lot of women in that list!

na. all the women were home, taking care of the hearth...right???

[edit on 10-6-2010 by dawnstar]

[edit on 10-6-2010 by dawnstar]

reply to post by dawnstar


Indeed, women have always worked, but did you know the financial strain on families was so severe in the industrial revolution, that pregnant women where expected to work up until they gave birth and then just DAYS after giving birth?
So much for the notion that women have had it handed to them (Y)

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


it was either anthony or stanton that addresses the NY congress calling for women to be given the right to vote. if you can find it, it's a good read and since it was given to the congressional assembly, I imagine it had at least a resemblance of truth to it.....
after reading it, I kind of get the impression that these working women didn't even have a legal right to their earnings.....it legally belonged to the husband....

reply to post by Edrick


what on earth is a male feminist ?

is that the opposite of a female shouvinist ?

reply to post by dawnstar


Yes, women have always worked, I didn't mean to imply that they didn't. However their primary function was never to "bring home the bacon" except in a few isolated cases. It's not the physical act of working ( and depsite what Edrick might insinuate raisning children is work), it's the idea that women should "suceed" in the working world AND raise perfect children. It's the idea that one MUST have two full time incomes to succeed. It's the idea that being a full time mother is somehow less than striving for career.

All this is down to the western belief that the measure of success is money. You can have a great career, succeed wildly , make lots of money and at the same time, your children are being raised by stangers, and turning into less than desirable adults, but hey ho..you're successfull and at the top of your career!

Feminism fails for me because it doesn't celebrate what makes a woman a woman. I don't want to be like a man, I want to embrace my skillset which was given to me over millions of years of evolution.

I truely believe that the most important thing a woman can ever do is to raise a productive, GOOD, stable child into an adult. For the past few decades, this "task" has fallen to less able segments, not the mother.

Look around you, is the world a better place because women can work 60 hour weeks to fullfil her career ambitions?

I don't think it has.

reply to post by Merigold


I looked around me, and well, in my neck of the woods, most of the mothers don't have the time to work 60 hours a week...they are balancing two full time jobs(one being motherhood and housekeeper) as it is.. the overtime would be a little too much, don't ya think.

but, let me ask you something....
if something happens to the husband, or if the guy just decides to up and run off with his pretty secratary.....
or even if he is just a little on the selfish side and decides that his booze, boat, hobby, or whatever, is more important than the things his kids needs.....
ummm....who is it that society seems to expect actually deliver those needs, be they clothing, food, medical care, or whatever?
it the mother who is being expected isn't it? isn't it her that is home when they are hungry usually rummaging through the cubboards looking for a meal while dad is off doing whatever...or maybe home....and in some cases, yes, I will say that he is the one rummaging....
but, well, it seems to me that it's the women who are usually directly responsible to give the children what they need..... regardless of what hubby does, or doesn't do. seems to me, that women are in much more need to be able to provide those things for her kids, herself, since well, far too many women find the responsibility does fall into their lap. so, wouldn't it be more important for her to be successful at coming up with the means to support those kids, come up with food, shelter, ect? who do you think the majority is out there in society? working moms, or non-working moms? and well....if working moms are even close to the majority, ummm.....considering that they are the ones who seem to primarily have the duty of caring for the kids.....maybe soceity should be formed within that construct, that yes, women work, women are financially responsible for the needs of their kids and not on some fairy tale fantasy that only works for a small number of the population. and, if they must work, then well....everyone wants to be successful at what they attempt...and their financial needs are just as demanding as a man's, maybe more so really so well, a fair wage and equal playing field in the job market is desireable?

An excellent website about women and mental health, proving how male dominance destroyed many women indirectly.

www.cwrl.utexas.edu...

(Note, this is not meant to be a link that bashes men and says your all wrong, its a link depicting what society USED to be like and why it lead to feminism)

reply to post by dawnstar


And therin lies a problem. Men are failing at being the protectors and providers that nature has uniquely endowed them to be.

I understand what you are saying and agree that in todays society A LOT of women have to work in order to meet the financial needs of their families due to the there being no father around for whatever reason.

What I dont' agree with is, and this is a lie pushed by a lot of feminists, is that it takes two incomes to meet the needs of a family. If the needs include cable TV, Iphones and Disney vacations then yes. These aren't needs, despite what corporate America is trying to push down our throats.

I dont' want you to misunderstand me. I believe a woman should absolutely have the choice to pursue a career, to move up the corporate ladder, to work in traditionally male dominated fields, hell to even go to war if she so wishes. The issue is that when a women chooses to go the path of fulltime motherhood( and it's just my personal opinion that it is the better path for society as a whole mind you) she is seen as lessor, not as good as, somehow oppressed even.

I have shared this opinion at my place of employment, I am surrounded by women who have chosen to pursue careers at what I believe is expense of their children and society as a whole. They all tell me they HAVE to work. And without any exceptions, they all have fancy cell phones, take foriegn holidays, wear designer clothes. When I tell them that when I have children I will quit my job and downgrade in order to "afford" it they as a group condem me as "old fashioned" and "oppressed" by my partner. I was literally shunned for these opinions, and frankly I have never been able to repair the damage! Obviously, to keep the peace I don't mention it anymore.

The fact that some women HAVE to work, not for designer bags or mancures but for clothes and food, is a testement that men ARE failing.

The fact that "stay at home" moms are looked down and seen as not successful or productive, or important to society is testement that feminism has failed.

ummm...ya, my husband was living with me, he was working, at a career that he has about three decades worth of experience in (machinist, tool and die maker)!
I could sit down with pen and paper, his paycheck stubs in hands, the bills beside me....add up all the money he was bringing home from work and all the bills, no designer clothing, no clothing was added at all, no cell phones, one car, insurance for the car, utilities, nothing was there that the gov't wasn't providing for a single mom with not income!!! we never could incorporate it all into what he made!!
I don't believe my husband failed...I don't believe that I just wanted too much!! I believe that the economy failed, I believe that our government failed!!!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If you cannot perform the same task, within the same time constraints then you are not equal.

When I say that men and women are "equal", I don't mean that they are the same. I mean that they are equal in value, equal under the law, equally intelligent, etc. Of course, generally, men are bigger and women can reproduce, their genitals are different and generally, they have different physical and mental abilities and preferences. So, in the areas that define their gender, they are different, but they are also equal, not the same.

Well i wasn't responding to you BE, i agree with your definition here and i wish more people would take the same line. I just get frustrated wit those who say men and women are equal in ability in all areas. Men and women both have strengths and weaknesses and we should embrace that. We should also stop the stupid equalizing measures that are used, or if women won't give them up then men should get some equalizers as i mentioned.

This is the problem, feminism used to be a fantastic ideal, now it's been twisted into balancing the scales in favour of women.

Woman were the LAST FACTION of citizens in this country to win the right to vote. The right to have our voices heard in the public arena. This was decades after black men were given the right to vote. Imagine being a black woman who finally gained freedom from slavery only to see black men being given the right to vote, but not you because your a woman. Apparently, being a woman was 'worse' than being black in those days.

Originally posted by Edrick


Men and Women are NOT Equal.

Then if we are not equal who is the superior and why?

Before you answer that--definition of 'Equal':

freedictionary.com

1. Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.

reply to post by Merigold


I disagree with what you say. I don't see the problem as being women going to work so much as BOTH parents being in the work place. I believe that there should be one parent who is able to be at home as much as possible. The fact that people believe it is the woman's job is what gets me. It is not always the man who makes the most money for the household so I don't see why, if the woman is the one "bringing home the bacon" it should be her who gives up the career. Are men not adequate enough for the job or are the "above" it? I don't think it either should be the case.

reply to post by dawnstar


I would star this many many times if I could.
What women need to find, and what so many are looking for is balance, I and we as a family are constantly trying to find the right balance to make things run smoothly.

I have an amazing husband who works incredibly hard for us, I also work full time and quite frankly besides just helping to pay the bills it was the best thing I have done for my own mental health in a long time. I started my own business and worked from home while he was little, and I was successful at it, but I was lonely and isolated and felt very cut off from the world.
I was also the first of my friends to have a child, so at that time lifestyles were very different. We are considering having another, and I am looking forward to having friends to share that with this time around I think it will be less isolating to have my long time friends in a similar situation.

Even though I work in the restaurant industry I found a mon-fri job that is from 7-4, this way I only have one hour a day when my son is not at school that I am still at work.

My mom is watching him during the summer so he is still with family and being raised as I think is best. I could find other jobs that would pay much more than I make, but the hours would not work with my role as a mother.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Well i wasn't responding to you BE, i agree with your definition here and i wish more people would take the same line.

That's BH.

I don't remember hearing anyone claim that men and women are equal in all areas, but I probably wasn't listening.

The reason people are probably resistant to say that men and women are not equal is that it leads to people claiming that women are "made" to be at home with the kids like some of the posts above. I don't really like people claiming to know what nature intended... How can they read the mind or intent of nature? I don't agree that someone needs to be at home.

I do agree with you about the equalizing measures. Especially in the military. If a woman can do the job, then she should have the job. If she needs "help" to do it, then she shouldn't qualify. Same goes for men.

This is the problem, feminism used to be a fantastic ideal, now it's been twisted into balancing the scales in favour of women.

And that happens when a people have been oppressed. They get special treatment in an attempt to even the playing field. I don't agree with it either, but I understand it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

That's BH.

Sorry about that BH, i'm not to well atm so i'm missing a few things here and there, quite rude of me.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't remember hearing anyone claim that men and women are equal in all areas, but I probably wasn't listening.

Such comments are regularly espoused by people calling themselves feminists, when in effect they are extremists. The kind of people like Germaine Greer who claim men are obsolete. Apparently such comments are not sexist when they are against men, the hypocrisy is rather disgusting.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The reason people are probably resistant to say that men and women are not equal is that it leads to people claiming that women are "made" to be at home with the kids like some of the posts above. I don't really like people claiming to know what nature intended... How can they read the mind or intent of nature? I don't agree that someone needs to be at home.

I agree that such comments may lead to those kind of claims, however science doesn't back those claims. While women used to stay at home, cooking the food, looking after the children and gathering berries and that sort of thing, this has actually lead to their brains gaining certain advantages which are very useful in the modern world. As i stated earlier, women are vastly superior to men when it comes to languages. Generally speaking, women learn languages faster, develop larger vocabularies and understand the nuances of language better then men.

Women are also better at dealing with social conflict, this no doubt stems back to the thousands of years of sitting around with other women cooking the dinner while dealing with children, which is why i think more foreign negotiators should be female.

Also because of their generally superior multi-tasking abilities, women tend to make better managers.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I do agree with you about the equalizing measures. Especially in the military. If a woman can do the job, then she should have the job. If she needs "help" to do it, then she shouldn't qualify. Same goes for men.

Absolutely agree here. Let us put people under the same conditions and judge performance. This is tricky when it comes to academic achievement because as stated men and women perform better on different forms of tests. The modern schooling system tries to cover the needs of both and it just ends up hurting both sexes.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

And that happens when a people have been oppressed. They get special treatment in an attempt to even the playing field. I don't agree with it either, but I understand it.

I understand it as well, but it shouldn't be allowed. Guilty can only be played on for so long before people get tired of making special exemptions.

Here is what really bothers me....

I am being attacked as a close minded, women hating, male chauvinist pig.... but all I am doing is citing FACTS about the genders that CLASH with you people's emotional preconceptions.

Se, I shall respond to specific examples now... and try not to be biased as you read them... try real hard.

@SearchLightsInc

Just for you, here is the definition:
1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority: a people who were oppressed by tyranny.
2. To weigh heavily on: Poverty oppresses the spirit.
3. Obsolete To overwhelm or crush.
My post explains how women have been oppressed.

Women do not have to work, they have the option of finding a man to support them, and society has (up until the feminist movement that is) supported the women in their decision.

If you are a man, you work your fingers to the bone to support a woman and family, or you are WORTHLESS.

Oppression.

Women do not have to submit to conscription as men do, and are under NO THREAT of being removed from their homes, gun placed in their hands, and told to "Kill or be Killed"

Oppression.

Women have the option of leaving their husband TAKING THEIR CHILDREN WITH THEM, and have the state force the husband to continue to provide for her...

Men do not have this option.

Oppression.

Women have government mandates enforcing "Quotas" for the amount of women in certain jobs... men must suck it up, and BE THE BEST AT THE JOB to be considered for employment.

Oppression.


The Feminists will always complain about the things that Men can do, that they Can't.... but you *NEVER* hear them talk about the things that women can do, but men can't

This is a childish argument, like saying men no nothing of pain because they havent given birth. It was men that made the laws of FORCED conscription. Your saying it was RIGHT and JUST to deny women morgages because she couldnt fight in a war?

You are saying that it is Right and Just that women can vote, own property, and have the same employment opportunities as men, but they aren't forced to risk their lives to defend it?

(Or, more accurately, that they are not forced to kill or be killed to secure the money and assets of the elite.)

What did you think women did when all the men were sent abroad?

Well, they certainly weren't Fighting and Dying thousands of miles from the saftey and security of their homes, now were they?

Because they didnt "defend" their homes, they shouldnt be allowed to own one?

Are you saying that Rights come without responsibilities?


I think that women should Shut Up about their oppression and differing treatment, until they are willing to suffer the slings and arrows of RESPONSIBILITY, as men are.

Pass a bill in the house of representatives, and congress, (Get it signed by the president) that mandates NOT ONLY that women MUST register for selective service, but that they also must be EQUALLY REPRESENTED in all of the Front Line Combat positions, and dangerous jobs.... and then I will shut up.

in the 18th century england, what would a woman have to protect her home from?

Nothing, actually... because the FRONT LINES were not in the country, were they?

But I digress... perhaps you hear of the War of Spanish Succession?
en.wikipedia.org...

OH, and lets not forget the AMERICAN REVOLUTION, shall we?
en.wikipedia.org...

Were these Strong British girls fighting for their country against these Upstart Colonists?

Or were they safe in the British isles?

Oh, and Also... the Great Northern War.
en.wikipedia.org...

So.... yeah.

Laws that say, you CAN beat your wife so long as the stick you use is no bigger then your thumb.

You see?

This is the kind of stupidity that I am up against.

You really think that the rule of thumb was referring to wife beating?

It's not......

It is often claimed that the term originally referred to a law that limited the maximum thickness of a stick with which it was permissible for a man to beat his wife, but this has been discredited.

en.wikipedia.org...

So, that would be an example of feminist propaganda, designed to make women ANGRY at men, for *NO REASON*

So, there.

Laws that say having sex with your wife, even if she does NOT consent is NOT classed as rape.

A marriage contract is an agreement between two people, that agreement states that "Whats mine is yours, and what's yours is mine"

You don't seem to be complaining about men who have to keep paying for the women (OVER HIS OBJECTIONS), despite the fact that they are divorced....

That is Financial Rape (Theft), but you just don't see that, do you?

en.wikipedia.org...

Nope.... whatever inconveniences the Man is fair game, but whatever inconveniences the Female is a crime against humanity, eh?

It is in the interest of women, but mutual self defence protects EVERYONE. Governments as ive already said were responcible for other laws which controlled womens rights.

So you can complain about laws that are biased against women, but I am SEXIST to complain about laws that are biased against men, eh?

Evidence? And i want an actual link to to your stats PROVING what you say.

Ask, and you shall receive:



Watch the whole thing (19 parts), it explains it all.

No. What i meant was two people, doing the same job. For example, two people working an office job. They do the same tasks, have the same workload work the same number of hours - Why should one of them be paid more because they have a penis? Its backwards thinking.

You are still not getting it.

I want you to *PROVE TO ME* that women make less than men for equal work... I want sources, I wand statistics, and I want scientific documentation.

Apparently you do not understand how the Statistics for the "Women make less for equal work" are actually tabulate by the Feminist movement.

The Feminist movement that is funded by the government, by the way...

Do we have a government funded masculinist movement?

No, of course we don't.... it would be SEXIST to treat men and women equally, right?

Yeah, houseworks a walk in the park and twice as fun /end sarcasm.

You ever got fired from the job of cleaning your house?

You ever had to put up with unruly customers whilst cleaning your house?

Were you exposed to dangerous environments? like at a blast furnace, or a coal mine?

How often do women DIE IN CAVE-INS, or Fires, or Explosions while working at home?

How many women are lost at SEA while doing the laundry?

How many women struggle to impress their boss so they can get a raise, for doing housework?

How many women don't get to see their kids, because their housework keeps them at the office late?


Seriously?

Gibson never heard of a prenup? Guy got screwed, just like women did for centurys. Heather mills is another example, yeah, those women are #ed up, i dont agree with what they did.

But it was a WOMAN who was oppressing a man..... surely you understand that by your logic, that makes ALL women Oppressors, right?

Stop justifying the fact that the system is set up to steal from men to give to women... it shows your inherent mysandry.

Its pretty hard to whipe a religious system that has existed for 2000 years off the face of the earth because of a social movement. You also forget, Marrige was STILL status at that time, and some extent, still is today.

Excuses, excuses.... there have been MANY queens and Empresses throughout history, who ruled in solitude.... yet they did nothing to change this "Oppression" against women that you speak of.

Why don't you start blaming catherine the great, or queen elisibeth for the "oppression" of women.

The truth is, i pity you.

Yeah... I pity you too.

I dont understand how someone can be so ignorant, to the point in which you even defend the system on the backdrop that it was wrong.

Oddly enough, I know exactly how you feel.

I'm glad feminism succeded, if it didnt, there would still be boys like you throwing up your retarded garbage on why women should be treated like second class citizens.

So you are saying that this conversation is all in your mind?

That it doesn't Exist?


And by the way... I would have NO PROBLEM treating women like equals, so long as they *ACT* like it...

So far... there have been like 5 women, TOPS who have fit that description.

(I'm looking at you Helen Thomas)

Take your ass to an islamic country, they'd love a guy like you.

And yet you keep complaining about how oppressed women are in the western world...

When western women are the most free women ON THE PLANET.... and it seems that all they can concern themselves with is MORE POWER.

It's ironic, isn't it?

-Edrick

@Merigold

agreen generally with what you say, though the delivery can leave a bit to be desired, and I'm a woman.

Thank you, and yes.. I AM angry over the general Female-centric attitude in the world at the moment, so that will reflect in the way that I post.

Do you think it is a coincidence that social cohesivness has broken down over the last few generations since the introdction of the idea that women should strive for careers? I don't.

Not at all.

It is deliberate, actually.

Women have a function dictated by biology, one for which is she is uniqley qualified, she is the "keeper of the hearth". Sadly, many many hearths have been neglected. Look around you, see the results, whole generations of children growing up badly because mum ain't around.

Yes... I see what you are saying, and I agree with you completely.

My quote that you chose to respond to does not really make sense except in the original context that I posted it in... and that was debunking the "What is a mom worth" article.

So, please do not read into that statement past the original context of how it was used.

Thank you.

To say that that function has no worth is playing right into the hands of the feminism you despise.

Oh, it HAS a function all right... it is that of Raising the next generation of children....

I agree with your meaning, I really do... but you are using my quote out of context.

Feminism gave women the choice to forgo this most noble and valuable of path. And women in droves chose the alternative..and now we all pay the price.

Exactly.... that was the entire POINT... but do you really think that this WORTH of women can be measured in money?

THAT was my point... That placing an arbitrary dollar value on a womans housekeeping work is shallow to the extreme.

Thanks for the reply, I hope you understand my meaning now.

@zerbot565

what on earth is a male feminist ?

That would be the guys that I am arguing against in this thread

is that the opposite of a female shouvinist ?

I suppose.


@nunya13

Woman were the LAST FACTION of citizens in this country to win the right to vote.

Yes, they were...

Now here is a Good question for you...


Do you think that George Washington was Elected President by popular Vote?


Do you think that the average man even *HAD* a vote back then?

Because if you do think that... you are mistaken.


Not to mention that ENGLAND... the nation that sort of founded the united states (not to mention spain, france, etc...) these were not democrocies... their people did not vote in their government.

Male, Female, Black, White, Red, Gay, Straight.....

Nope.... you do what the King or Queen Tells you, and you LIKE IT.


This false Idea that Men have been voting since the dawn of time, and have been keeping poor little hepless women out of the loop is quite mad.

*VOTING* in governmental elections is a NEW concept.

Then if we are not equal who is the superior and why?

Apples and Oranges are not equal... so you go ahead and tell me which one of those is superior, and why, and you will have answered your own question.


Equality is a MATHEMATICAL term.... Men and women are BIOLOGICAL entities....

Equality does not apply.

Neither does "Superior" or "Inferior" unless you are citing SPECIFIC CASES.... such as:

Men have superior strength.

Women have superior language skills.

Etc...


To state that men and women are EQUAL, is a NON ARGUMENT.... it means absolutley nothing, and is completely wrong in every concievable way.

-Edrick

reply to post by Edrick

When western women are the most free women ON THE PLANET.... and it seems that all they can concern themselves with is MORE POWER.

Someone finally said it.

*Claps a la Jerry Maguire*