Conservatives call for Ground Zero mosque protest

reply to post by Hulk Hogan


How far should our tolerance go , all the way? Then you would find a divided , morally bankrupt society. Should America accept shariah law in the U.S , honor killings and female genital mutilation ;muslim style , aye or nay , yes or no?
Would you tolerate a religion that practices human sacrifice?


[edit on 7-6-2010 by De La Valletta]

reply to post by De La Valletta

Originally posted by De La Valletta
reply to post by Magnus47

 

Then you are not being realistic Magnus. If you knew and did nothing yes , you are a criminal.If you were a fiery imam and you were preaching "death to the west , death to america!" from the mimbar(arabic word for pulpit) of a mosque you have just incited hatred and conspiracy to commit murder.

But what if I didn't know? What if I wasn't a fiery imam, and I wasn't preaching "death to the west?" What if I was just some guy who goes to a mosque, and actually renounces Al Qaeda? If you killed somebody in my name, you would be the criminal, not me.

My point is, just because a criminal claims to represent a larger religious group does not mean he/she actually does. In fact, most Muslims strongly reject the ways of Al Qaeda.

And who are you to tell americans they should not feel bitter or angry , are they not human? Especially the ones who lost loved ones , they will decide when their ready to forgive.
... If they wanted healing and peace , the minute they suggested this and heard there was resistance the should have backed away , too sensitive.

In fact I agree with you here, and I never said Americans shouldn't feel angry. It's only natural to react that way when we lose our closest loved ones. And I also agree that it would have been better if they had simply built the mosque somewhere else... at this point it is causing a lot of controversy and stirring up emotions, and they must have known this would happen.

But the fact remains that they voted and decided to build the mosque. Regardless of their reasons to do so (probably to press people toward religious acceptance), they had every right as American citizens to do this. At this point all we can do is remind ourselves that when all is said and done, there really is nothing wrong with building a peaceful mosque in New York City. We can either react with hatred, or we can take it upon ourselves to remember the freedoms we all hold dear.

The rest of your post seems to equate all Muslims with Al Qaeda, which I disagree with.

reply to post by Magnus47

In fact, most Muslims strongly reject the ways of Al Qaeda.

Until they have enough numbers and power they'll play along.But many do not reject jihad , which Al Qaeda strongly espouses , whether slow and covert like this mosque affair , call it subversion or violent like 9/11.

The rest of your post seems to equate all Muslims with Al Qaeda, which I disagree with.

No I equate them with jihad. You don't have to get violent with a muslim for him to declare jihad on you , you just have to block them spreading islam and they'll squeal persecution , which is the basic ground for declaring jihad.Yet you can't go to muslimland (Dar Al Islam) and spread your religion you'd be lucky to escape with your head. Islam like many religions is spread by the sword and ignorance. Many muslims are quietly glad for Al Qaeda , the Taliban , Hamas etc. They salivate at the thought of the Global Caliphate to validate islam.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by A TRUE AMERICAN
If you don't believe you are discriminated against you should wake up and take a look around. Why is'nt it a disgrace??? Are you an American???

do you believe in the Constitution?
the second amendment?
do you enjoy and exercise YOUR right to free speech?
freedom of religion?
the right to bear arms?

GET OVER IT

Hey Queenie, don't you wish you had all of those freedoms in your country??? Your jealousy speaks loudly my friend!!!

I'm French, totally atheist but I have to admit that I grew up in a country mostly Christian so de facto I'm quite immersed in this religion.

I didn't read all pages, only the first and it was enough to see that to a certain extend America is still this bunch of racist and narrow-minded people that I used to imagine...

'A TRUE AMERICAN' is the perfect example in the first page.

I am against Islam. I am against Christianity. I am against all religions. Actually not because of what they are, but only because of the 90% of idiots that follow those religions and screw them up.

Keeper is perfectly right when he says that in its official version the 9/11 wasn't attacked by Islam, but by religious extremism.

Religious extremism is the worst thing on earth, it has been the cause of millions of death throughout history :
- perpetrated by Christian against American Indians, against Mayas and Incas, during colonization in Africa, during crusades, in Irak...
- perpetrated by Muslims nowadays...
- perpetrated by Jews in Palestine...

I said 'in its official version', because instead of hating Muslims and their religion you guys on ATS more than anyone else should know that 9/11 isn't clear, some things are hidden, and Muslims could be less guilty than it appears. And this doubt is enough not to promote hatred and revenge.

Persons like 'A TRUE AMERICAN' has nothing to do on ATS, he is speaking without knowing, churns out some abstruse and bad faith arguments... he isn't seeking for truth or enlightened choices, he is stuck in his ignorance and only considers what he wants to be true, not what may be true. I only have pity for this kind of person, and I have to admit it some hatred, because the world would be so much better without those ignorant humans...

We need to consider here WHAT IS ISLAM ? Islam is the Koran, not what people are doing with it. If someone kills on behalf of the Koran, don't hate the Koran, hate what HE did with it.

I always hear people saying that Koran promotes hatred and conquest, but did you guys read it ? I DID, on behalf of the TRUTH, because let somebody doing it and afterward judging for you what is good and what is bad in it only leads to ignorance. Make your own mind FFS !

Did you know that ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT RECOGNIZES THE EXISTENCE OF THE OTHER ONES ? Did you know that Jesus is beloved by Muslims ? He is one of their main prophets, they cherish him and love him as much as Abraham, Muhammad or David. Islam only says : Christians and Jews are right, their religion is legit, we respect them and share most of their beliefs, we just think that another prophet will come again to speak to us. Here is one of the main differences. I wish I could compare it more in details with Bible but unfortunately I haven't read it yet.

Finally, I find interesting that at the contrary of Islam that establishes the lex talionis (eye for eye, teeth for teeth), Christianity encourages the forgiveness (turn the other cheek ). Yet, Christians NEVER forgive and most of the time just want to "nuke this sons of bitches","mosque in ground zero no way ! ". This is just sad that you promote hatred on behalf of a religion that says the contrary. Maybe you are the fundamentalists here.

Originally posted by DAMOo
I'm French, totally atheist but I have to admit that I grew up in a country mostly Christian so de facto I'm quite immersed in this religion.

I didn't read all pages, only the first and it was enough to see that to a certain extend America is still this bunch of racist and narrow-minded people that I used to imagine...

'A TRUE AMERICAN' is the perfect example in the first page.

I am against Islam. I am against Christianity. I am against all religions. Actually not because of what they are, but only because of the 90% of idiots that follow those religions and screw them up.

Keeper is perfectly right when he says that in its official version the 9/11 wasn't attacked by Islam, but by religious extremism.

Religious extremism is the worst thing on earth, it has been the cause of millions of death throughout history :
- perpetrated by Christian against American Indians, against Mayas and Incas, during colonization in Africa, during crusades, in Irak...
- perpetrated by Muslims nowadays...
- perpetrated by Jews in Palestine...

I said 'in its official version', because instead of hating Muslims and their religion you guys on ATS more than anyone else should know that 9/11 isn't clear, some things are hidden, and Muslims could be less guilty than it appears. And this doubt is enough not to promote hatred and revenge.

Persons like 'A TRUE AMERICAN' has nothing to do on ATS, he is speaking without knowing, churns out some abstruse and bad faith arguments... he isn't seeking for truth or enlightened choices, he is stuck in his ignorance and only considers what he wants to be true, not what may be true. I only have pity for this kind of person, and I have to admit it some hatred, because the world would be so much better without those ignorant humans...

We need to consider here WHAT IS ISLAM ? Islam is the Koran, not what people are doing with it. If someone kills on behalf of the Koran, don't hate the Koran, hate what HE did with it.

I always hear people saying that Koran promotes hatred and conquest, but did you guys read it ? I DID, on behalf of the TRUTH, because let somebody doing it and afterward judging for you what is good and what is bad in it only leads to ignorance. Make your own mind FFS !

Did you know that ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT RECOGNIZES THE EXISTENCE OF THE OTHER ONES ? Did you know that Jesus is beloved by Muslims ? He is one of their main prophets, they cherish him and love him as much as Abraham, Muhammad or David. Islam only says : Christians and Jews are right, their religion is legit, we respect them and share most of their beliefs, we just think that another prophet will come again to speak to us. Here is one of the main differences. I wish I could compare it more in details with Bible but unfortunately I haven't read it yet.

Finally, I find interesting that at the contrary of Islam that establishes the lex talionis (eye for eye, teeth for teeth), Christianity encourages the forgiveness (turn the other cheek ). Yet, Christians NEVER forgive and most of the time just want to "nuke this sons of bitches","mosque in ground zero no way ! ". This is just sad that you promote hatred on behalf of a religion that says the contrary. Maybe you are the fundamentalists here.

Merci de nous donner le point de vue français!

[edit on 8-6-2010 by A TRUE AMERICAN]

reply to post by A TRUE AMERICAN


Yes you are a true American, no doubt about that ! But not one from today, you are that old fashioned racist and illiterate cow-boy that was the star of the old movies. You are a patriotic John Wayne, a little Reagan that feels that being patriotic means following the powers that be and never doubt of the legitimacy of your government's point of view.

When a true patriot raises against authorities abuses, protect the freedom offered by the constitution to serve the people and denounce the unfair wealth of few.

But well, I think I made my point I'm repeating myself I will stop now. Anyway, keep following the lex talionis, that way you will get closer of Islam, it's better than nothing and pretty funny !

Originally posted by DAMOo
reply to post by A TRUE AMERICAN

 

Yes you are a true American, no doubt about that ! But not one from today, you are that old fashioned racist and illiterate cow-boy that was the star of the old movies. You are a patriotic John Wayne, a little Reagan that feels that being patriotic means following the powers that be and never doubt of the legitimacy of your government's point of view.

When a true patriot raises against authorities abuses, protect the freedom offered by the constitution to serve the people and denounce the unfair wealth of few.

But well, I think I made my point I'm repeating myself I will stop now. Anyway, keep following the lex talionis, that way you will get closer of Islam, it's better than nothing and pretty funny !

How can you hate a country that liberated you from the Nazis? Now your country is 30% muslim. I guess that answers my question and exposes your motives!

Ohhh nice ! I haven't seen the argument of the liberation coming ! I should have been prepared though, this is the second one usually coming after "you are French".

I think you understood bad my posts. I love America. I love France. I even love Israel. Not loving a country is senseless... What I don't like is racists, bad faith, ignorance, easiness and bad feelings. I don't like Israel government, I don't like my government, and actually I think that American government could be worst.

When I said you are a True American it doesn't mean that IMO you represent the majority, but that you are a cliché, you are what the world hates in America. Fortunately being on ATS made me see that America isn't like you, people tend to think and open their eyes, seek the truth. You are the past, no matter if you realize it or not. The fact that you weren't able to counter any of my arguments reinforce my beliefs. Truth comes from debate, those who can't debate are not looking in the right direction.

Finally, if this can reassure you, I'm white, all my family is totally and exclusively French and so are most of my ancestors I guess. You're right when you say that a lot of Arabic people came to France, even if 30% seems a lot to me (but you may be right who knows). Actually it causes some problem, but not because of the immigrants in themselves, but because they are rejected, denied, ill-treated, because of persons like you that don't realize how diversity is a chance and how open-mindedness can resolve the problems they try to resolve with violence and prejudices.

reply to post by DAMOo


You are exactly right , and it is something that I have noticed , religion is a tool to fool the ignorant/weak masses , who instead of looking within themselves and realizing that they are responsible for their actions and equally the results , instead seek to ascribe it to their tribal diety. But then when you ask why he didn't help you in times of peril or need , you or the devil is to blame. Then this deity isn't responsible nor all powerful.

In order to feel good about their religion they must have a higher number of adherants than others for example,"My deity is better than your deity becuz there are more believers!" or "My god is better than your god becuz we are stronger" these are some of the things religious twits use to validify their religion. Take away the validations and you have a crisis in their religion , adherants numbers fall as they lose faith becuz another religion is more validated and viewed as more stronger , only the stubborn remain out of patriotism to their faith or zeal.Another control mechanism is that religion is used to enable tyrants to rule over us , who use the excuse of "Divine Right-God gives me the authority".


Now , my view on this so called "diversity" or multiculturalism is that it is also a tool , to divide and conquer. When you're too busy fighting the Duclares , you forget the corrupt government. Diversity within a homogenous context yes but without one , no , you are asking for trouble. Being a frenchman you should know this , after all the skill was invented and perfected on your ancestors the Gauls , by Julius Caesar , who used it to manipulate the least little difference into making brother fight against brother and then swooping in to finish off the last man standing. Have you heard also about the secret extortionist deal made back in the 70's oil crisis , where the muslim leaders demanded that in exchange for their oil , Europe and America would have to accept unlimited unfettered immigration from the arab muslim world. That was tantamount to invasion and the story goes that while America outright refused as America still had some control of Saudi Arabian oil , Europe capitulated. That's why you have so many muslims in Europe now , not becuz you or you're parents and grandparents wanted it , it's because you're governments were weak. They became junkies to oil , the Arabs recognized it and pimped you out.


What sort of immigration policy allows an alien culture to reach 30% and rising without assimilating that population and allowing more to come by the day to wipe out the host culture? An invasionary immigration policy , that's what.It's not even a melting pot , alien cultures are now encouraged to resist mixing with host culture. While the European and Americans/Canadians etc continue to abort children by the bushel and under-reproduce , the arabic muslim who can marry 4 wives has at least five times more children.

France reached many golden ages without that kind of diversity , which shows they don't need it. A country divided cannot stand , look at Rome in it's last days with the mass influx of barbarians and the biblical Babel with it's multitude of confused languages.

Great post S + F

I am in favor of the controversial mosque. Whether you believe it is a smack in the face of the families of the 9/11 tragedy or not, it does not give you any legal or moral right to stop the mosque from being built.

It could serve as a center for multicultural diversity, to show the people of the local area that Islam is not about violence or intimidation as portrayed by right-wing populists and the media. Islam is a religion of many ethnic, cultural and linguistic back grounds that come together under the name of Muhammad and Allah. Just as Christians come together around Jesus and God.

We have had barbaric acts performed by Christian fanatics just as Islam is currently dealing with today. We cannot let blind fear and ignorance cloud our thoughts on subjects such as this.

Don't let ignorance prevail.

Originally posted by Magnus47
Ground Zero should not be turned into a bastion of religious hatred. It should be a reminder of what religious hatred can lead to. If they had built a mosque there before 9/11, this wouldn't have been an issue. It shouldn't be an issue now.

If you killed somebody in my name, it wouldn't make me a criminal.

It shouldn't, but it does. There are a lot of mosques in the area so why did they want to build there? To many people it looks as if it's a big middle finger to the US and it's people.

Wouldn't it be nice if they were just a little sensitive to the fact that people may not get a warm fuzzy about this?

Nobody would build a German WWII memorial museum next to a holocaust museum so why do this?

reply to post by De La Valletta

Originally posted by De La Valletta

 

Until they have enough numbers and power they'll play along.

Are you listening to yourself? You are sounding very paranoid. This isn't some kind of good vs. evil fairytale.

You don't have to get violent with a muslim for him to declare jihad on you , you just have to block them spreading islam and they'll squeal persecution

Funny, that sounds a lot like persecution to me. I'm pretty sure if you tried to block the spread of Christianity, people would "squeal" persecution, too. It's no surprise that the same would happen for any other religion.

Yet you can't go to muslimland (Dar Al Islam) and spread your religion you'd be lucky to escape with your head.

In some places this is true. But I'm pretty sure you could walk into a New York City mosque and mention Christianity, and walk out with a head attached to your shoulders.

Many muslims are quietly glad for Al Qaeda , the Taliban , Hamas etc. They salivate at the thought of the Global Caliphate to validate islam.

This is 0% based on fact and 100% based on your desire to demonize a religious group. Anyway that's my blunt opinion.

reply to post by DAMOo

I didn't read all pages, only the first and it was enough to see that to a certain extend America is still this bunch of racist and narrow-minded people that I used to imagine...

It must be nice to sit back and take the loudest, most obnoxious people from our country and convince yourself that they somehow represent the rest of the nation. I suppose you think that because you don't see as many racist and narrow-minded people in your own country, it offers a nice, easy excuse for you to go into online forums and casually inform everybody that America = bad, France = good. Nevermind the fact that it's only natural that you would have fewer loud and obnoxious people in France, considering there are fewer people of ANY kind in France, as it is comparable in both size and population to a whopping 3 or 4 of the total 50 American states.

I agree with most of what you're saying regarding attitudes toward Islam. But unlike you, I am not going to generalize the rest of your country as having the same holier-than-thou attitude that you have.

reply to post by jfj123

I agree, the construction of this mosque is only inciting controversy. They really should have built it somewhere else. But while I might complain about it, ultimately they have every right to build a mosque wherever the city officials tell them they can build it. So at some point it's up to us to suck it up and get over it. In the end, we have to remember our foundations, here.

... I don't know why I'm even letting this thread get under my skin. It's clearly dissolving into another insult-a-thon. I guess I should just take a chill pill and let you guys duke it out on your own.

Originally posted by Magnus47

reply to post by DAMOo

 

I didn't read all pages, only the first and it was enough to see that to a certain extend America is still this bunch of racist and narrow-minded people that I used to imagine...

It must be nice to sit back and take the loudest, most obnoxious people from our country and convince yourself that they somehow represent the rest of the nation. I suppose you think that because you don't see as many racist and narrow-minded people in your own country, it offers a nice, easy excuse for you to go into online forums and casually inform everybody that America = bad, France = good. Nevermind the fact that it's only natural that you would have fewer loud and obnoxious people in France, considering there are fewer people of ANY kind in France, as it is comparable in both size and population to a whopping 3 or 4 of the total 50 American states.

I think you didn't read all that I have written my friend. I think you missed that :

I think you understood bad my posts. I love America. I love France. I even love Israel. Not loving a country is senseless... What I don't like is racists, bad faith, ignorance, easiness and bad feelings. I don't like Israel government, I don't like my government, and actually I think that American government could be worst. When I said you are a True American it doesn't mean that IMO you represent the majority, but that you are a cliché, you are what the world hates in America. Fortunately being on ATS made me see that America isn't like you, people tend to think and open their eyes, seek the truth. You are the past, no matter if you realize it or not. The fact that you weren't able to counter any of my arguments reinforce my beliefs. Truth comes from debate, those who can't debate are not looking in the right direction.

And nowadays I really feel bad in France. Two years ago I wasn't even thinking about it, but now you can't read any news on the Internet without it being accompanied with hatred and racist comments, narrow-mindedness... I'm afraid, France isn't the country it used to be. Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood are not anymore. Debates and politics stink. I'm really afraid, literally. I want to spew when I realize what it has become. I'm kinda fleeing it, I'm currently in Indonesia and will be for one year in Mexico, I think (I hope actually) that time will cure France, or in the future something bad will happen, I feel it (a kind of civil war ? ). Politics are only speaking about veil hypothetical issues, make amalgams between youth and delinquency, MSM are their mouth piece and keep going deeper in hatred as the people likes it and isn't able to think by itself. Crisis is going deeper and deeper, unemployment is at its highest level, more and more people are poor, each winter people freeze to death, oil is getting more and more expensive... and all they care is black and Arabic people that are allegedly the cause of the problems...
Government is lost, Banks are scoffing at us, shareholders are more important than workers... and foreigners are scapegoat. Yet almost nobody realizes that in France. People are sheep lead by ignorance and comfort.

Is France "better" than America, for all that it means anything ? I don't know if it has already ever been the case, anyway that surely not is today.

I am with those who think that a mosque at Ground Zero is like a huge slap in the face. However, a monument to George W. Bush or a flight simulator tourist attraction in the area would also be distasteful. It is the context and the connotation that make it inappropriate. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but because those allegedly responsible for the attacks were Muslim, this mosque would seem to many like a "victory flag", as other forum members have mentioned.