Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

Originally posted by Skellon
reply to post by Dock9

 

'Murder'

Definition:

1. crime of killing somebody: the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defence or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law

uk.encarta.msn.com...

Surely as the killings occurred during a clearly illegal action they would be treated as murder whatever the circumstances. If I break into someones home and they catch me and attack me and I kill them in my efforts to defend myself I'm charged with and guilty of murder.

reply to post by black cat

Gaza flotilla raid: 'We heard gunfire – then our ship turned into lake of blood' Activists aboard Mavi Marmara speak of shock at rapid attacks and deny assaults on Israeli commandos

Lee said: "[The attack] was a surprise, because it happened in the middle of the night, in the darkness, in international waters, because we knew there would be a confrontation but not in international waters. Their first tactic was to cut all of our satellite communications and then they attacked. All I witnessed first hand was the shooting. They came onboard and started shooting at people." She said the commandos then sent the women to a lower level of the ship. "They said we were terrorists – it was absurd. They came into the part where the women were, lots and lots of them, dressed in black and with gigantic weapons as if they were in a war. They confiscated all of our telephones and all of our luggage and took everything out of the bags and put it on the floor." "We expected them to shoot people in the legs, to shoot in the air, just to scare people, but they were direct," she said, in a separate interview with the Folha de São Paulo newspaper. "Some of them shot in the passengers' heads. Many people were murdered – it was unimaginable." The released activists gave varying accounts of the level of resistance mounted by the passengers. Annette Groth, a German politician, described at a press conference how she had seen Israeli soldiers outside her cabin, after they had stormed the ship. "They were shooting without warning," she said. "It was like war … They had guns, Taser weapons, some type of teargas and other weaponry, compared to two-and-a-half wooden sticks we had between us. To talk of self-defence is ridiculous."

www.guardian.co.uk...

This is another account that came out about five minutes ago. There will be more and more.

They were going after certain individuals with intent to eliminate them.
They do that all the time and use all imaginable means. They really mean it when they say that their enemies were in humanitarian convoy.

Originally posted by DangerDeath
reply to post by LieBuster

 

Do you have link for that news?

Yep here on ATS already

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Boy were are fast.

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by Skellon
reply to post by Dock9

 

'Murder'

Definition:

1. crime of killing somebody: the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defence or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law

uk.encarta.msn.com...

Surely as the killings occurred during a clearly illegal action they would be treated as murder whatever the circumstances. If I break into someones home and they catch me and attack me and I kill them in my efforts to defend myself I'm charged with and guilty of murder.

Killing someone willing to fight is not murder, it is a "kill". But that is not the issue here, the real issue is whether you are authorized to kill or not. Catch 22.



[edit on 1-6-2010 by DangerDeath]

An al-Jazerra reporter says Israel fired upon one of the ships before boarding, and that the ship’s captain was wounded. The Palestinians and Arab nations are demanding an independent investigation into the incident, and are calling on Israel to lift the blockade on Gaza and allow ships to deliver their goods.

www.cfra.com...

That is from an article where Israel is defending what happened and saying that they were attacked first.

"We expected them to shoot people in the legs, to shoot in the air, just to scare people, but they were direct," she said, in a separate interview with the Folha de São Paulo newspaper. "Some of them shot in the passengers' heads. Many people were murdered – it was unimaginable."

www.guardian.co.uk...

Come on bots! Deny this!

Captain recounts Israeli attack on Flotilla Tue, 01 Jun 2010 23:08:08 GMT

Israeli forces attacked the Turkish-backed fleet in international waters 150km (90 miles) from Gaza on Monday, killing at least 20 people. Tokalak said he and the other captains had assured the Israeli Navy that they were in international waters and carried nothing illegal. "They started shooting directly at Mavi Marmara … They didn't care if it was the front or back of the ship," he also said referring to the lead ship of the convoy. "I thought they would sink the ship."

www.presstv.ir...

So I believe that the ships were first fired upon, then assaulted with tear gas and flash bangs and then boarded. Yeah, I would have taken action as well because in international waters anything can happen.

Originally posted by jackflap

An al-Jazerra reporter says Israel fired upon one of the ships before boarding, and that the ship’s captain was wounded. The Palestinians and Arab nations are demanding an independent investigation into the incident, and are calling on Israel to lift the blockade on Gaza and allow ships to deliver their goods.

www.cfra.com...

That is from an article where Israel is defending what happened and saying that they were attacked first.

This mirrors my own speculation from yesterday. The Captain being wounded would have sent shockwaves through those on board, and had them panicked and looking to defend themselves at any and all costs at that point.

When you just look at the videos as a snap shot in time, and take the politics and agendas and bias out of it, what you really are seeing is desperate people literally fighting in a way that would best be described as for their lives.

Keep in mind too, that the fight or flight self survival mechanism can only choose flight if there is an avenue of escape.

70 miles out to see on a boat, surrounded by a hostile navy that has already wounded your captain, you have no avenue of escape.

So no fight or flight, becomes fight or submit.

Yet you are now confronted with having to submit to a force that has just opened fire against your unarmed vessel and wounded your unarmed captain, so submission becomes a very risky thing.

Will you die anyway if you submitt.

Keep in mind all this is playing out, at night, in the middle of the ocean, on a moving ship in the middle of the ocean.

You might be watching it in your living room, but the people on board those boats weren't in your living room, they were out there in the middle of the ocean, in the pitch black of the night, facing an armed and hostile force that had already drawn blood.

You would only choose against submission in that situation if you felt your life was truly in danger, and you would likely die anyway.

These were guys armed with what ever they could get their hands on attacking heavily armed troops with machine guns and assault rifles.

When you look at those videos you see people panicked and in terror fighting for their lives.

They had to have stimuli to prompt that.

Shooting the captain before attempting to board a ship out at sea in the dark?

Yeah that would really do it.

I've been searching google for more and more news and it just keeps coming out as more information reaches Diplomats ears. Check this out:

SOURCE

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said Israel must make a "clear and formal apology," accept an independent investigation, release all passengers immediately, return the bodies of all dead passengers and lift what he called the "siege of Gaza." If these demands are not quickly met, he said that Turkey will demand further action from the U.N. Security Council.

He added that Turkey will also bring the matter before NATO. "Citizens of member states were attacked by a country that was not a member of NATO," he said. "We think that should be discussed in NATO."

Woah...Israel better do as Turkey asks or else the US is going to be FORCED to take sides if Turkey brings this up with NATO

And then the second wave came...

And then the second wave was gone...

Dito.

Originally posted by Dock9


I know

they're an online laughing stock


Really reflect well on israel, don't they

Something for the fat gamers and geeks to do when they're conscripted, willingly no doubt, into the IDF at 18 or whatever age they're required to have their minds warped in Israel.

No doubt they work in squads with older pro's in command and some on research missions to back up "posters".

AJ is reporting they fired on the Flotilla before they boarded and had hitlist of who to kill, to detere any future ships..

"Israel is gradually turning from an asset to the United States to a burden," Meir Dagan, the chief of Israel's Mossad spy service, reportedly told the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Tuesday.

JTA Source

LOLs, The Chief of the Mossad calling his own state a burden to the US.....Why hasn't the US admitted Israel is more of a burden then Iran is? Well I guess that's just my opinion but of course I'm only basing that on some of the events I've witnessed.

Abraham Foxman, the Anti-Defamation League's national director, framed his treatment of the same issue in a Jerusalem Post blog post titled "The U.S. vs. Israel." "Another element in the historic relationship between the two countries has been eviscerated," Foxman wrote, referring to U.S. policy dating back to the 1960s that made any mention of Israel's reported nuclear arsenal off-limits. "What is becoming a pattern is that when the administration looks at America’s broader interests, it too often chooses to see the Israeli position as undermining those interests."

HELL YA America looks at the Israeli position as undermining our interests....I don't know about my fellow Americans but I don't wanna be spending in excess of $500B in wars that AREN'T necessary.....in defense of a country that acts as belligerent as Israel does.

"There's a message being sent by the Obama administration, 'Come on, you are our ally, you are our friend, we perceive you as an ally, we act toward you as an ally, and when we assert over and over again that Middle East peace is in our overall interest, you are not doing your utmost to cooperate with that policy.’” It would not be the first time that Israel has deferred to discomfiting U.S. policies.

[edit on 6/1/10 by ElijahWan]

Originally posted by ken10
Some People here need to keep in mind that almost every country on the planet have Publicly condemned Israel's actions.

Any defence of Israel on this case is a lost cause.

If you're not going to accept this then how can we move forward ?

So if the majority agrees on something they are right?

That is 'group think' my friend and is part of the problem, not the solution.



“Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.” -Mahatma Gandhi

“The minority is sometimes right; the majority always wrong.” -George Bernard Shaw


[edit on 1-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by CanadianDream420


Oh dang...He says the number is up to 20! Who knows if all those are Turks too.... Might add some international support if some of the other casualties turn out to be citizens of NATO states ect.

He also pointed out a FUNFACT. The deck of a ship flying a Turkish flag is considered the "sovereign land of Turkey". "If you land on that ship UNINVITED, that is an act of war"

I guess I didn't realize this could be taken as an act of War but I hope Turkey doesn't back time. It's high time Israel learned it can't just kill people and get away with it like they do in Gaza....The people in Gaza may not be able to defend themselves, but surely our governments will act differently when they hear the first hand accounts from their "VIPs"

[edit on 6/1/10 by ElijahWan]

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Yeah, self defense is natural thing. This is why it is important who started to shoot first. Or even who started to use violence first, don't you think?
If Israeli soldier started shooting and stabbing people around him ,response would be self defense. If Israeli soldier landed on ship to change its course and was attacked it is a little different.
Even if Israeli action was illegal (and there are people who say that it is , at least here) physically attacking armed soldiers who are not attacking you is not self defense.

No No No the IDF put itself in the position of the party behaving illegally when it initiated the action by firing "warning" shots and illegally rappelling onto the deck, all subsequent actions by the defending party are legal.

Originally posted by Skellon


“Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.” -Mahatma Gandhi

“The minority is sometimes right; the majority always wrong.” -George Bernard Shaw

Good words, considering the way we've been bombarded with Israeli deniers then i think WE are the minority.

Good to see more eye witness reports coming out now. Especially horrified to find that a lot of the Israeli's were going for head shots. Also the people who were captured, some of them were beaten and filmed too.

More illegal actions by Israel.

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Yeah, self defense is natural thing. This is why it is important who started to shoot first. Or even who started to use violence first, don't you think?
If Israeli soldier started shooting and stabbing people around him ,response would be self defense. If Israeli soldier landed on ship to change its course and was attacked it is a little different.
Even if Israeli action was illegal (and there are people who say that it is , at least here) physically attacking armed soldiers who are not attacking you is not self defense.

No No No the IDF put itself in the position of the party behaving illegally when it initiated the action by firing "warning" shots and illegally rappelling onto the deck, all subsequent actions by the defending party are legal.

So by your reasoning/logic, if someone fires 'warning' shots (I have yet to see evidence of them doing this) they are fair game? You may then proceed to beat them within an inch of their lives with metal poles?

[edit on 1-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by Thepreye



Legal ?


Don't you need to check your dictionary ?


When you do, you'll find the definition of 'legal' bears no relationship to israel's actions