Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by mr-lizard
By all accounts this whole thing took place over an hour, and the armed rebellion was one of the final stages.

It took over an hour and we have no footage of this? All we have of an hour-long incident is just snippets of footage, nothing to support these claims? Very interesting.

Who is paying you to lie, Mr-Lizard?

Nobody. I'm not lying. I have already politely u2u'd you to NOT bring the arguements to this board. Don't insult my intelligence.

I have been on this thread for 90+ pages on and off, and have witnesssed dozens of videos and posted lots of links.

Honestly, i am genuinely determined to find the truth in all of this, no matter what you say. Please keep on topic and discuss the issues here and NOT attack each other.

Thankyou.

It seems like some of you can't seem to understand that armed people illegally boarding a ship in international waters are called pirates. The people onboard the ship had every right to attack the Israelis. If this happened inside Israel's territorial waters it would be a different story.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Yeah, self defense is natural thing. This is why it is important who started to shoot first. Or even who started to use violence first, don't you think?
If Israeli soldier started shooting and stabbing people around him ,response would be self defense. If Israeli soldier landed on ship to change its course and was attacked it is a little different.
Even if Israeli action was illegal (and there are people who say that it is , at least here) physically attacking armed soldiers who are not attacking you is not self defense.

reply to post by crezo

One of the main things that strikes me as odd in the press (uk and us), is that none of the seem to mention the activists protecting THEMSELVES.

There's comments everywhere from the Israeli forces saying they were being attacked, one even going as far as to say:

"The outcome was different to what we thought, but I must say that this was mainly because of the inappropriate behavior of the adversary we encountered."

Again, that's the conditioning. This is very seriously going on for thousands of years. You don't resist authorities, or you get killed. It applies everywhere. For real or metaphorically.

If the US or GB are not condemning this atrocity, it means there is someone above them who will destroy them if they do the opposite and condemn Israel.

That is a fact, conditioning really works (for most people, not for all). But especially for those who are involved with institutions of all kinds, not just state.

reply to post by ElijahWan

They had AT LEAST 50 other options they could have pursued besides running an assault raid with SPECIAL FORCE COMMANDOS onto a ship of pro-Palestinian activists.

But with this i agree completely. This action was bad and had unnesessery tragic results - i do not defend this. However there are people who try to turn it into something that it was not. I do not know what politicians or top military were thinking, but soldiers who landed clearly did not resolve to and did not start to use violence. Physically they were attacked first. And attacked not by crew who are responsible to the boat, but by passengers.
So official Israel is to blame for the tragedy,without any question. But provocation that escalated it all was not Israeli-originated.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Yeah, self defense is natural thing. This is why it is important who started to shoot first. Or even who started to use violence first, don't you think?
If Israeli soldier started shooting and stabbing people around him ,response would be self defense. If Israeli soldier landed on ship to change its course and was attacked it is a little different.
Even if Israeli action was illegal (and there are people who say that it is , at least here) physically attacking armed soldiers who are not attacking you is not self defense.

Once Again...

Lets review, which Ships attempted to stop which Ships?

Did the Flotilla try to stop the Israeli Ships, or did the Israeli Ships try to stop the Flotilla ships?

Who ever tried to stop the other sides ships is logically and tactically henceforth known as the: AGRESSOR!

Agression is a provocative act, that triggers something called a RESPONSE.

So lets try to follow along in the real world of common sense not Israeli sense and I know this might be a stretch for you.

Did the Flotilla try to stop the Israeli Ships? No

Did the Flotilla try to repell onto the Israeli Ships? No

Did the Flotilla try to tell the Israeli Ships they could not sail any place? No

Did the Flotilla board any Israeli Ships and attempt to capture any Israelis? No

Did the Flotilla attempt to offload or demand surrender of any Israeli Cargo from their ships? No

So in reality we can see using something called common sense that no, the flotilla was not the agressor.

See how that works, one side picks on and molests another side instead of minding their own business.

That makes them an agressor.

When the side that was minding their own bussiness responds to an act of agression, this makes them a defender.

See how that works?

Does the Israeli school system really not teach something called CAUSE AND EFFECT?

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

Yes, I posted it and the link earlier today


But it's good you've posted it again


We should be posting this stuff every couple of pages

20,000 of them, apparently. I think that's way too conservative an estimate

all living in our lands, benefiting from our justice systems, etc. And all supporting that parasitic little hole over there

[edit on 1-6-2010 by Dock9]

Who do?...Do you have an anti jew agenda ? sounds more like it with every post?

The US Pres's handler or right-hand-man is a former dual citizen of US/Israel. You think that may have an effect on his prepared speeches?

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

So official Israel is to blame for the tragedy,without any question. But provocation that escalated it all was not Israeli-originated.

You are denying responsibility. That's what you're doing. Nice try.

Israel is responsible, not their victims.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Nobody. I'm not lying. I have already politely u2u'd you to NOT bring the arguements to this board.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
I have been on this thread for 90+ pages on and off, and have witnesssed dozens of videos and posted lots of links.

And according to you, you and those who agree with you are the only ones allowed to do this. Anyone who disagrees must be a disinformation agent. If anyone is going to be a disinformation agent, Mr-Lizard, it must be you. 90 pages is quite a long time to spend discussing any topic.

Originally posted by mr-lizardHonestly, i am genuinely determined to find the truth in all of this, no matter what you say. Please keep on topic and discuss the issues here and NOT attack each other.

That is a great idea. Interesting you thought otherwise four hours ago. You had absolutely no problem discussing other members and attacking them. But when someone turns it around you, suddenly it is off-topic, suddenly you want to play nice. Why is that?

Scared you are going to be exposed as a paid-disinformation agent, Mr. Lizard? Who is paying you to lie?

The Knesset have attempted to call the bluff of the flotilla people by deciding to deport them all,bypassing any court action,thus getting this episode wiped from the global media as fast as they are able:

PM Netanyahu decides not to prosecute the 680 Gaza protest flotilla detainees, who are to be sent to Turkey and Jordan and then proceed to their countries of origin.
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu decided Monday that Israel will not prosecute or continue to hold the participants it captured from the Gaza protest flotilla, despite earlier indications from Israel that some of those who attacked the Israeli soldiers boarding the ships will be prosecuted.

www.jpost.com...

They don't want any drawn out court cases of course,as this would drag out the event,and probably expose things to the world that the Israelis deem unacceptable for public consumption IMO.

We simply can't have that can we...
After all they are our alllies.

reply to post by Skellon


I long ago learned that video can be edited to show you what the presenter wishes you to see and to believe. I was present at a political rally way back in 1973. We were a rag tag bunch and there was no more than about a hundred of us. You can imagine my surprise when I saw on the evening news, video after video showing our group to appear to be in the thousands. If they could do that then, image what they can do now.

If I had had any belief in honesty in journalism it flew the window that day; it has never returned.

It used to be said that you should believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. I think they are about even now because you can't believe either.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by ElijahWan

 

They had AT LEAST 50 other options they could have pursued besides running an assault raid with SPECIAL FORCE COMMANDOS onto a ship of pro-Palestinian activists.

But with this i agree completely. This action was bad and had unnesessery tragic results - i do not defend this. However there are people who try to turn it into something that it was not. I do not know what politicians or top military were thinking, but soldiers who landed clearly did not resolve to and did not start to use violence. Physically they were attacked first. And attacked not by crew who are responsible to the boat, but by passengers.

Yes but we only have a SMALL amount of video evidence dude. Do you REALLY think that IDF video isn't edited to exclude anything that would make them look bad? It's what the video DOESN'T show that tells us more. I highly doubt as a helicopter flew overhead, the people just decided to beat up the IDF troops. That doesn't make sense since the other 5 ships would have done the same. Mr. Lizards ideas that they may have targeted specific people on the boat and THIS led to the uprising by the crowd makes A LOT more sense. But that's besides the point. They should NEVER have launched an assault raid on the vessel. That's just ASKING for your IDF soldiers to be attacked, especially if those on the vessel KNEW they were in International Waters still and knew it would be considered an act of piracy....

Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by black cat

 

They had weapons (poles, bits of wood, makeshift clubs)

BECAUSE

according to NUMEROUS EYE WITNESS SOURCES on board - they had heard explosions and gun fire moments before the commandos descended.

They were panicking and it was self defence.

And i'm very happy to know that an Israeli solider was thrown over board - you have cheered up my evening quite nicely.

Kudos to those guys who chucked him off the edge.

Hold on you claim to know it all about the event ....but it has taken you this long to realise a soldier was thrown overboard......it is in the first video on this thread ...and also the idf film you claim to have studies..........very strange you didnt know this before.....

www.cnn.com...

Turkey demands U.S. solidarity in response to Israeli attack

They won't give up just like that.

"We expect full solidarity from the United States," Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said before a meeting with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. "We are not happy with the U.S. statement from yesterday."

"Israel thinks it's above the law," Davutoglu said. He warned that if some countries choose to follow the "rule of the jungle ... we know what to do."

Turkey's ambassador to the United States, Namik Tan, called the U.S. response "sort of weak."

I don't know if this has been reported.

This is a major development. The Irish-flagged MV Rachel Corrie cargo ship, whose passage to join the Freedom Flotilla may have been delayed because of sabotage by Israelis, is now heading for Gaza — and it has the full support of the Irish government.

This is no longer just a question of how easily Israel can trample on the rights of a humanitarian organization. The Irish prime minister, Brian Cowen, has warned Israel that it will face “the most serious consequences” in the event that any harm comes to Irish citizens on board the humanitarian relief vessel.

warincontext.org...

I assume these 'most serious consequences' will include the end of Irish-Israeli diplomatic contact in any form.

These are strongest words yet i have seen from a country other than Turkey.

Not to mention the violence occurring on the LEAD ship, which likely contained some of the "louder voiced enemies" that I spoke of earlier. This leads me to believe the violence really didn't start until IDF made some type of move towards an activist or something. Explain to me this....if the Helicopter was hovering over, and saw all these people grabbing pipes from the side, and slingshots....How come we don't SEE them going for "makeshift weapons"? We only see the video AFTER they have all the weapons in their hands in the first place. And why in GODS name would the Commando's repel down into an ARMED crowd unless they were looking to get attacked? The videos REEK of something fishy, and IMO they only show maybe 25% of what exactually happened. I can guarentee you that IDF will never realease the ACTUALY first boarding videos....

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Scared you are going to be exposed as a paid-disinformation agent, Mr. Lizard? Who is paying you to lie?

YOU are. I thought we'd agreed that YOU were to be the horrible one and i was the good guy. Why have you gone public?

I QUIT. I expect my holiday pay and bonus too on the amount we settled on.


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(Above may be a lie).

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reply to post by princeofpeace


i've figured it out!

masked lunatic pit-bulls dropped from helicopters with their usual killing frenzy to protect their kennel. which they stole anyway. euthanasing the species will fix the problem.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Not that simple.
Lets review, which Ships attempted to break the blockade?

Did the Flotilla try to brake the blockade, or did the Israeli Ships try to break the blockade?

Who ever tried to break the blockade is logically and tactically henceforth known as the: AGRESSOR!

Agression is a provocative act, that triggers something called a RESPONSE.

So lets try to follow along in the real world of common sense not Israeli sense and I know this might be a stretch for you.

Did the Flotilla try to break the Israeli blockade? Yes

Did the Israelis defended their blockade? Yes.

Did the Israelis try to break the aid fleet blockade? No

Did the aid fleet defended their blockade - NO.

So in reality we can see using something called common sense that the flotilla was the agressor.

See how that works, one side picks on and molests another side instead of minding their own business.

That makes them an agressor.

When the side that was minding their own bussiness responds to an act of agression, this makes them a defender.