17 States Now Filing Versions of Arizona bill

reply to post by Annee


When you look at what it cost to come across the border into California from Mexico 3,000 - 4,000 per person. Most do use a coyote. Then take into account that it is only 1,350 to file and gain citizenship. I don't know I'm no math whiz but doesn't seems quite as bad as it is made out to be. Sure the wait time is a bit lengthy and only gets longer when people cross over illegally but the majority that do it legally find it is well worth the wait.

www.cuny.edu...

What does the citizenship test consist of?

You must know about basic U.S. history and government, and be able to speak, read, and write simple English.
Do I need to be able to speak English to become a U.S. citizen?

Yes, you must be able to read, write, and speak simple English. There are some exceptions for some older and long-time residents, and for some disabled permanent residents.
If I legalized through the amnesty program when can I apply for citizenship?

If you legalized through the amnesty program you are eligible for naturalization five years after the date you were granted permanent residence, NOT temporary residence.
How much does it cost to file an application for citizenship?

It costs $675* to file an application for citizenship: $595* application fee and $80* fingerprinting fee. Please see the USCIS Immigration Forms website for the latest fee information.
Are there any reasons why I could be barred from obtaining citizenship?

Yes! You should see an immigration attorney or other legal counselor in any of the following situations:

1. You have been convicted of a crime.
2. You have ever lied to an immigration officer, consular official, or government official.
3. You married solely to obtain residency status.
4. Since becoming a lawful permanent resident, you have been absent from the United States for long periods of time, especially periods over one year.
5. You have ever been arrested.
6. You failed to file an income tax return for any year since becoming a lawful permanent resident.
7. You owe child support

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I agree , but it is our own Goverment , our Elected Officials , who seem to be allowing this apparent " Corporate Takover " of this Great Nation . What can we , the Common People , do about this other than Vote those responsable for it out of Office ? Seems the Constitutional " Law " of this Land is losing it's Teeth due to a Cabal of Corporate Lobbists who Corrupt the ones that supposedly Represent us . Solutions ? .I am all ears....

reply to post by Zanti Misfit


I think the only thing we can do at this point is, pick a candidate from a third party and elect them in, bypassing the two party corporatate owned candidates.

Once we get an actual candidate in office, we need to quickly get a few small things passed. We need a permanent end to the granting of corporations the rights humans have. We need some meaningful campaign finance reform. We need to create some protections for the internet to prevent it from becoming privately owned like the other media outlets are. And then we need to insist that all candidates campaign on the internet or use free government tv channels so that money cant buy elections. We also need to make it a law that bills go through one issue at a time instead of these colossal nightmarish 1000 page bills will all sorts of stuff piggy backed in. We need people and the politicians to actually be able to read and understand them.

And thats just a start. But thats what I would suggest. First, vote third party. Get a non corporate candidate in office.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


All good point's . I would also suggest dissolving the " Electorial College " , and make the Majority Rule Vote count for a change .

[edit on 24-5-2010 by Zanti Misfit]

reply to post by Zanti Misfit


Not a bad plan at all. I just wish people would actually do something, vote outside the two main parties. I still think enough of our Constitution remains to do this with the electoral process, but the longer we wait, the more difficult it will be to get corporate money out. And if we wait so long that they seize control of the internet, we have no real chance.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


" And if we wait so long that they seize control of the internet, we have no real chance. "

This is also a concern of mine . The Internet seems to be our Last Bastion of Free Speech and Independence from those who wish to achieve Total Control over our Thought Processes . If that ever happens though , there will be Whisperings amoung some Americans of Armed Revolution , and we both know where that will lead.....

reply to post by NinaSimone


Thank you for your input, it is valued and appreciated in this debate. You are far from alone in the way you feel. I know many legal migrants, and hispanic citizens here in AZ who feel the same as you. They understand this bill is not a threat to them, they are here legally, and no police officer will have the ability to take that from them. The only people who are making noise against this, are those who have bent over so far backwards not to seem racist that their heads have gone straight up their butts, businesses that benefit off slave labor, and actual racists who harbor dreams of returning the southwest to Mexico. Legal migrants have no desire to see the southwest turn into the country they left for a better life.

Those saying this land belonged to one group or another, only go back in time far enough to support their personal opinions, and no further. Before the Spanish created Mexico, this land was occupied by Aztecs and other tribes who fought wars and murdered each other for territory, etc. Human beings did not evolve on this continent, so there are no true natives. The "we were here first" argument hasn't held much water throughout the history of mankind. It's a reality for all lifeforms living on this planet, survival of the fittest. Right now, this land is part of the U.S. We welcome those who wish to come and be a part of our society, and contribute equally, REGARDLESS of their skin color. But those like La Raza and Aztlan, in my opinion, have declared war on the U.S. and plan to take the lower part of the U.S. back, not by direct military invasion, but through a silent invasion in which they overwhelm our society.

reply to post by FiatLux

Ok, now, which ones do you support, the legals, or the illegals, or is it both? This is part of the problem, you give no clear responce to this part. Or are we to just guess which it is? I`m sorry, I meant to say, use our powers of mind reading to make that call?

I have never made it a secret that I support anyone who wants to come here to work, feed their families, or come here for a better life...legal or illegal...I have more respect for people willing to do anything to feed their families than I do for American citizens sitting on welfare not even looking for a job or not willing to do any job they can get.

Yes, I believe you did. Your responce to my question above will show enough, again, thanks.

If you believe I made a statment saying that the US can support 1 billion more people...just simply go and quote me as saying that. Post the quote or give a link to the post where I made that statement.


I would love to see how you think you are going to read my mind in telling me what I believe or what statement you are going to fabricate that I made based on this information.

reply to post by Zanti Misfit



Until reading this thread and others like it, I didn't fully understand the electoral system in the US. Still don't, but have a better handle on it than a month ago

People often remark about the 'weird' US voting system, and I knew it was different to many Western nations, but I still didn't appreciate how different until, as I say, I read the posts in this thread -- for apparently (please correct if wrong) Americans are required to vote for someone who promises those voters that if he gains sufficient votes, he in turn will vote for HIS electors' candidate of choice. Is that close to the system you have in the US ? And is this what you refer to in your post when you suggest removing the 'Electoral College' ?

If so, and although my opinion carries no weight at all in the scheme of things, I'd agree with you. Because the current system (if my rough grasp is close to correct) imposes unncessary (imo) 'middle-men'

The system we have, simplified, creates the impression (to voters) that they're voting direct for their national leader of choice by voting for their preferred party which has already selected its leader. So when people vote for a party, they're in effect voting-in that party AND its leader, which often translates to the vote being cast for the leader him/herself. And in this country, voting is compulsory, with fines imposed on those who fail to vote

Again, I'm not sure if I'm correct about the US system, but it seems from what I've read that voters are required to elect/vote-for one of a number of middle-men, in the hope that middle-man will in turn vote in the presidential candidate of the voter's choice

But what's to prevent that middle-man from voting-in someone else ? I've read that the middle-men's votes are secret-ballot. So individual voters would have no way of knowing if 'their' middle-man upheld his side of the deal he made with voters ?

Middle-men would surely be open to threat and bribe ? And they could have made these secret-deals long beforehand, couldn't they ? So, seen from the perspective of non-Americans, this system could be regarded as nullifying the people's votes -- of rendering them worthless and as simply a charade designed to make voters believe they count ?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I have never made it a secret that I support anyone who wants to come here to work, feed their families, or come here for a better life...legal or illegal...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Not sure how many neighborhoods inhabited by illegals you've been to, but I've been to plenty here in Phoenix, and I can tell you they live in the same squalor they do in Mexico. They pay coyotes to bring them across the border, who end up raping their daughters and holding them for even MORE money if they don't outright take them and turn them into slaves, and/or they drag their children many miles into the 120 degree desert to try and hike their way into population centers, if they survive at all. Once they get here, they usually have to pay a crap load to coyotes and drug runners for "helping" them, and bust their @sses for slave wages. That's not a better life.

Once we secure our borders, we can open a guest worker program, in which unskilled laborers can work in half year increments legally, and making minimum wage and paying taxes, then rotating out for another group for six months. Everybody would win except the already filthy rich who benefit the most from exploiting people trying to make a better life for themselves.

Originally posted by 27jd

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Isnt that the truth. Good posts. You bring up a lot of interesting points.

I think we are making progress in general on this issue, I think the overall quality of posts on the topic are much better than the name calling that has been the norm on the subject.

Originally posted by ker2010
LOL read the actual law its a almost mirror reflection of current federal law. Tons of laws can be used for profiling . Since that is the case i guess we should have no laws.

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

Link

Now I know that sure is some complicated legalize, but let's break it down. "Lawful contact" is a phrase that was so vague that it was taken out of the bill. However, they've replaced it with "stop, detain, or arrest." The problem still lies with the words "stop" and "detain." A police officer can "stop" or "detain" you under any suspicion they choose. Once you've been "stopped" or "detained" now you can be asked for your papers, regardless of what the initial suspicion was. This violates the constitution twice, although technically the judicial activists on the supreme court decided that any stop is constitutional.

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

Now, if the person stopped, wait no, hold on, let's restart that statement more realistically. Now, if the BROWN person stopped, and/or detained, has no ID, yet is VERY MUCH a US citizen (we're not talking about driving, we're talking PEDESTRIAN) what exactly is the next step? Seriously, answer the question. I've posted the law, but I need to go to bed so I can't start digging through to the next step.

So if a black male is going 55 mph throughout a upper class mostly white neighborhood that has a posted speed of 20 mph i guess he shouldnt be pulled cause it could be profiling?

The AZ law says if someone is pulled or stopped for breaking a law they can then be asked to show proper ID to prove their legal status. AFTER already being stopped because of breaking a law in the first place.

"Stop" doesn't specifically reference a operating a motor vehicle, but nice try. And "detained" is a whole other story. I've been detained before under suspicion of vandalism. The cops knew my rights and neither frisked me nor asked for my ID. I did have to wait, but they found the real perps and let me go. It can happen to anyone.

Any male doing 55 in a 20 should be pulled over.

So seriously, if you're going to get into real debates here, don't use "straw man" arguments, or avoid arguing with me.

Get real you support open borders, people like you just will not admit it.

Way to go. Would you put words in my mouth in real life? The internet toughguy routine is tired and in real life you'd get a quick schooling in the constitution. I'm really fond of arguing with "establishment of religion." We'll try it one day. I bet I know what side you're on.

Look at the polls americans are fed up with it and this law wont be stopped wait and see.

I dont know if i can speak for all whites but Ill show a cop my DL and SS card any day of the week if it helps prevent illegal immigration!! Bring it on.

Yeah? Would you wear a star of David on your arm, too?

So seriously, do you have any non-white friends?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by FiatLux

 

Ok, now, which ones do you support, the legals, or the illegals, or is it both? This is part of the problem, you give no clear responce to this part. Or are we to just guess which it is? I`m sorry, I meant to say, use our powers of mind reading to make that call?

I have never made it a secret that I support anyone who wants to come here to work, feed their families, or come here for a better life...legal or illegal...I have more respect for people willing to do anything to feed their families than I do for American citizens sitting on welfare not even looking for a job or not willing to do any job they can get.

Really, like we didn`t already know you supported it by your statements? So, in your mind, instead of getting the leaches off of the system that are legal citizens at this time, you don`t mind the illegals adding to the problem? Believe me, a person doesn`t have to be a mind reader to figure you out, you give yourself away by the statements you make.

Yes, I believe you did. Your responce to my question above will show enough, again, thanks.

If you believe I made a statment saying that the US can support 1 billion more people...just simply go and quote me as saying that. Post the quote or give a link to the post where I made that statement.

I`ve already posted it a half dozen times and that`s enough. As I stated before, all you had to do was answer the first part of that question, and you did, and it was enough rope to hang yourself with.

I would love to see how you think you are going to read my mind in telling me what I believe or what statement you are going to fabricate that I made based on this information.

No one had to fabricate anything to get you to show your true colors, you answered the question I asked, and that`s all it took. Read your mind? Yeaaa, riiiight, what ever.

As for me, i`m growing tired of your BS, and your not worth getting in trouble over.

reply to post by NinaSimone


Thanks Nina Simone for understanding I was not being flippant.

But I'm not sure you can just stay because you file.

And - I'm not sure you can just enter the US because you want to.

I think you need to have a sponsor - relative - employer - school etc.


[edit on 24-5-2010 by Annee]

Adding in this newly found site to this thread; Very interesting live numbers/stats with data sources listed, concerning illegals including that more than 11 million skilled jobs have gone to illegal aliens in the U.S:


www.immigrationcounters.com...

reply to post by FiatLux

Really, like we didn`t already know you supported it by your statements? So, in your mind, instead of getting the leaches off of the system that are legal citizens at this time, you don`t mind the illegals adding to the problem? Believe me, a person doesn`t have to be a mind reader to figure you out, you give yourself away by the statements you make.

You are speaking in circles.

First you say I made a statement that the US can support 1 billion more people...and ask me to prove it.

Now you are saying you "got me" by thinking you got me to admit I support any immigrant coming here to look for a better life...but I have never made that a secret....it's funny.

I`ve already posted it a half dozen times and that`s enough. As I stated before, all you had to do was answer the first part of that question, and you did, and it was enough rope to hang yourself with.

LOL...you have never posted a quote of me saying that "The US can support 1 billion more people". You haven't posted it even one time because I never said it...but good job dodging it. Not man enough to admit you are wrong?

And what am I hangin myself about...you stopped making sense a long time ago.

No one had to fabricate anything to get you to show your true colors, you answered the question I asked, and that`s all it took. Read your mind? Yeaaa, riiiight, what ever.

Great detective work...the only problem is that I have always shown my "true colors" on this issue without ever hiding the fact that I support..but if you believe you have uncovered some great secret I have been trying to hide...more power to you.

As for me, i`m growing tired of your BS, and your not worth getting in trouble over.

Growing tired of trying to misquote me? Yeah...it does get tiring being called on your lies...doesn't it?

Originally posted by Sunsetspawn
Now, if the person stopped, wait no, hold on, let's restart that statement more realistically. Now, if the BROWN person stopped, and/or detained, has no ID, yet is VERY MUCH a US citizen (we're not talking about driving, we're talking PEDESTRIAN) what exactly is the next step? Seriously, answer the question. I've posted the law, but I need to go to bed so I can't start digging through to the next step.

What the HELL is the purpose of the "BROWN person" remark?? What relevance does it have? In reading the law, there is NO mention of skin color. This is so incredibly and obviously dishonest, it's disgusting. A WHITE person could also be here illegally, perhaps from an eastern european country, overstaying a visa. We have many Serbs and Bosnians here in Phoenix as well. REGARDLESS of skin color, the cops don't just stop everybody on the street. If an individual looks suspicious, like they're casing out cars or something, and they get questioned, if they're a US citizen what is your point?? Even if they forgot their ID, do you HONESTLY think they will just be deported on the spot?? If they are a US citizen, then they will have no problem proving that. ALL of us are supposed to carry ID on us, even if we're not driving. If we don't, we aren't hauled off to jail or deported. We tell the cop who we are, and get a ticket. If the individual in question, BROWN, WHITE, OR GREEN, doesn't speak english, and does not carry the required documentation to be in this country (as is required in ALL countries), now they may be held a bit longer to determine who they really are. Again, if they're here legally, there WILL be documentation, if not on them at least at their place of residence.

"Stop" doesn't specifically reference a operating a motor vehicle, but nice try. And "detained" is a whole other story. I've been detained before under suspicion of vandalism. The cops knew my rights and neither frisked me nor asked for my ID. I did have to wait, but they found the real perps and let me go. It can happen to anyone.

Right, and since you were LEGAL, everything worked out fine. As it would if you were BROWN and legal. If you were illegal, you'd have been caught. Even if you didn't vandalize, you still would have been a criminal.

Yeah? Would you wear a star of David on your arm, too?

So seriously, do you have any non-white friends?

There it is. The loss of ALL your credibility whatsoever. The mandatory, and ridiculous Nazi reference. Again, we WELCOME migrants of ALL colors, religions, etc. LEGALLY, meaning they don't come here and STEAL the resources we have pooled for citizens and LEGAL migrants in times of hardship. We don't put them in ovens or gas chambers, in fact we go out into the desert and risk our OWN lives to save them, not very Nazi-like. We just want them to go home, and come back the right way, or not at all. We NEED to know who's all here, and where to find them if they should commit a violent crime. That's how functioning society works.

I can't speak for the other poster, but I personally have MANY non-white friends. Just a couple months ago, we were one of the only white families invited to a friends daughter's quinceanera. It was fun, and everybody was very welcoming.

[edit on 24-5-2010 by 27jd]

[edit on 24-5-2010 by 27jd]

reply to post by 27jd


I ignore the posts that are getting your goat currently

I see them for what they are -- and what they are stinks to high heaven of trolling for pay, imo

They're attempts to derail the thread by deliberate provocation

When I see 'nazi' and 'colours' within those posts, I scroll straight away from them

But they illustrate to me (and hopefully to others) just how desperate certain powers-that-be are getting

So, it seems obvious they're instructing their paid-trolls to focus, FOCUS on derailing elements (such as 'colours' and 'nazis' etc)

Clear as day. And in a fast moving thread such as this, there's no need to respond. They get left in the shade within minutes, anyway

Starve them ... don't feed them ... is my belief

reply to post by Dock9


You're probably right. I try to refrain, but being an Arizonan (who's father and grandparents immigrated from Canada and became a citizen the right way), I feel personally attacked by all the BS Nazi crap. When I was much younger, we were boating at Lake Pleasant just north of Phoenix when we witnessed a large boat capsize a little dingy full of non-english speaking hispanic men. Surprisingly, not only couldn't they swim, but they were drunk and not wearing life jackets to boot. The large boat had no idea they had dumped them, and we were the ONLY other boat in the area. We rushed over there, and my dad pulled every one of them on board, as they were thrashing about in the water and nearly pulled him in with them. We got them all aboard, and asked if they wanted to go to the ranger station to see if they could recover their boat, they didn't AT ALL. So, we dropped them off at the dock and they were very grateful that we saved their lives, even though we're racist hicks down here. I'm sure that's how Nazis would have treated a boatload of capsized jews.

reply to post by 27jd



Being unjustly accused of something ... as you are ... acts as a trigger and results in indignation and a need to 'explain'.

It pulls you off topic. You believe you'll get back to topic once you've cleared your name. But instead, you often find yourself being pulled further and further into the muck, because these trolls have been trained in just that and it's how they operate

YOU are committed to your beliefs

but trolls don't allow their true beliefs to enter into it. To them, this is a 'job'. So they're investing nothing. It's costing them nothing. In fact, it's paying them

Meanwhile, YOU, with your strong beliefs and sense of justice, are investing huge energy --- and your energy is being pulled into areas of waste. So you're being bled by parasites. And the more depleted your energies, the less rational you might become

So decide how and when to invest your energies --- don't let trolls decide for you

You know you're a good person. Don't be gulled into defending yourself against those for whom you have no respect anyway

The only opinions you need care about are those of those you respect. All the rest is chaff

(ps: this little lecture is as much to myself as to you, by the way. We all get led down dead-end gullies and tiredness plays a role -- we spend too much time online, eh ?)

Your people sound great
You're right to be proud