17 States Now Filing Versions of Arizona bill

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by jfj123

 

So what do we do when most of the people in the world come to the US ??

I can't wait to hear your answer for that question !

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

It seems that America was once proud to be the country that helped the poor...now it seems like indiviual greed is more important.

You go ahead with that concept of greed...I'll stick with the original sentiment of America and choose to accept those that want to come here looking for the American Dream.

Go ahead and call me whatever name you want because of this...doesn't really matter.

Dude you are a... let me shut up before i get a warning....

How in the hell can we support billions of people from other impoverished countrys? We cant let billions of people come here we can not support them.
Surely you cant be this ignorant.

SPACE+ RESOURCES! The only way to help those people is for there country to change for the better.

Since you have a hard time comprehending this let me break it down this way.

Say you are in the ocean on a huge boat. Your boat has 20 guests on it. The boat has the size and food to sustain a 100 people till you get back to shore.

Anything over a 100 people the ship will sink. You get a distress call and go to the location. Their are 160 people in the water needing help.

So do you take in 80 the amount you can save and call in help for the rest?
Or do you cram in all 160 and make your boat sink killing everyone? Or do you leave them all because you cant take them all and dont wanna be unfair?

No the only logical thing to do is to do what you can!!! Pick up 80 of them and throw life vests to the rest. What else can you do?

Understand now this is what you are suggesting. You are suggesting if you were the captain of this ship you would take them all in and end up killing everyone. Maybe this analogy will clear the fog out of your brain.

Taking in more people than you can handle (billions) will make the USA worse than the country they left!




[edit on 23-5-2010 by ker2010]

reply to post by jfj123


So you are saying you disagree with this American tradition:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Now that you are here in America...we should shut the door. And you are trying to tell me that isn't greedy and selfish?

Moving the argument to extremes (billions...really?) is a weak way of saying you have no argument.

Should I go to the other extreme and say that all non-Native Americans should be deported because they are all "illegal" in this land???


It's funny how people can be so "American" and not even support one of it's long standing traditions.

reply to post by ker2010




Analogies...it is like a kids "what if" game.


You can call me all the names you want...doesn't change anything.

And I see you are also attempting to move the argument to the extreme...funny.

I support a long standing American tradition of welcoming those looking for a better life and a chance at the "American Dream". Obviously you do not.

That is the difference between us.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by jfj123

 

Now that you are here in America...we should shut the door. And you are trying to tell me that isn't greedy and selfish?

Show me where I've said that.
I also like the way you outright LIE to support your point.
Didn't I just write that the US takes in more each year then all other countries COMBINED? So based on what you said, all other countries are more selfish and greedy then the US which by default (your logic) makes us the LEAST selfish.

Moving the argument to extremes (billions...really?) is a weak way of saying you have no argument.

Nothing like completely disregarding everything I've said...
If you can justify taking in unlimited numbers of impoverished people, then we are talking in the billions. If you can't justify taking in unlimited numbers, then YOU sir are also greedy and selfish Again your logic not mine

Should I go to the other extreme and say that all non-Native Americans should be deported because they are all "illegal" in this land???

Native Americans are not illegals in the US so of course they should not be deported. What a pointless argument.

It's funny how people can be so "American" and not even support one of it's long standing traditions.

Of course we can support the tradition of legal immigration to the US. We just don't support ILLEGAL immigration. Oh and since no other country including mexico, supports ILLEGAL immigration, every country in the world must be greedy and selfish....again your logic


[edit on 23-5-2010 by jfj123]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by ker2010

 

Analogies...it is like a kids "what if" game.


You can call me all the names you want...doesn't change anything.

I like the way you try to inflame everyone here..egging them on to call you names yet nobody has

Analogies are used throughout all levels of society for many reasons such as helping a specialist relate important information to a layperson. So an analogy is not a "kids game".

And I see you are also attempting to move the argument to the extreme...funny.

Of course...you see we need to in hopes that you might understand an extreme as you can't understand our other attempts to explain very basic ideas to you.

I support a long standing American tradition of welcoming those looking for a better life and a chance at the "American Dream". Obviously you do not.

That is the difference between us.

So what would you do if everyone in the world wanted to move to the US ? Would you think it's a good idea? After all it's part of tradition right ?
Can you answer these questions ?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


And are you a racist because a majority of illegals are mexicans what makes them better than Wendimu down in ethiopia who is in way worse shape than mexico? The argument is extreme? NO its not dont back peddle buddy. You say we should help everyone in poverished countrys. Well guess what? Thats billions!!! Not extreme just a fact. SO we cant let billions in who do we let in freely? How is that decided? Looks like its gonna be mexicans i guess they are considered better than Wendimu. Now whose racist?

We take in immigrants but we have a process to do it.

Thanks for answering my question glad you arent captain




[edit on 23-5-2010 by ker2010]

reply to post by jfj123

Show me where I've said that.
I also like the way you outright LIE to support your point.
Didn't I just write that the US takes in more each year then all other countries COMBINED? So based on what you said, all other countries are more selfish and greedy then the US which by default (your logic) makes us the LEAST selfish.

You said it...but you didn't provide and proof for it. That is how it works here...make a claim and give a source or it looks like you are just making things up. Give me a source for that...I'm not going to do your research for you.

If it is true...good...and we should continue to do so...not try to kick people out and stop people.

Nothing like completely disregarding everything I've said...
If you can justify taking in unlimited numbers of impoverished people, then we are talking in the billions. If you can't justify taking in unlimited numbers, then YOU sir are also greedy and selfish Again your logic not mine

I support anyone who wants to come here and work for a better life. If that is 1 billion...then yes I support it.

Native Americans are not illegals in the US so of course they should not be deported. What a pointless argument.

Reading comprehension error...go back and re-read my comment.

Of course we can support the tradition of legal immigration to the US. We just don't support ILLEGAL immigration. Oh and since no other country including mexico, supports ILLEGAL immigration, every country in the world must be greedy and selfish....again your logic

And "legal" immigration should consist of arriving at the border with the willingness to work. Not letting those in that can pay for the lawyers and fees to file the papers.

Of course...you see we need to in hopes that you might understand an extreme as you can't understand our other attempts to explain very basic ideas to you.

I understand just fine...I understand that the two of you have been caught up in the game of politicians telling you this is a huge problem so they can get votes. And then the issue will dissapear after the election.

Except that this time the anti-immigration side pushed too hard...so now there will be pushback in the form of legislation that will include amnesty, a more simple/cheaper immigration process, and the increase of the amount of people let in each year.

But you can't see that...can you?

Wth? No Georgia?

Perdue, what a coward. If Deal wins gov this nov you can add Georgia to this list.

reply to post by ker2010

And are you a racist because a majority of illegals are mexicans what makes them better than Wendimu down in ethiopia who is in way worse shape than mexico?

Do you see me saying that Wendimu people can't come to the United States? If they want to come work...they are welcomed by me. Probably not by you unless they speak english and drop all their customs though...right?

The argument is extreme? NO its not dont back peddle buddy. You say we should help everyone in poverished countrys.

No...I never said we should help everyone...I said we should welcome everyone so they can help themselves. There is a big difference. I am actually against the majority of foreign aid we hand out. But I would welcome anyone, and in any amounts, that want to come here to work for a better life.

Well guess what? Thats billions!!! Not extreme just a fact. SO we cant let billions in who do we let in freely? How is that decided? Looks like its gonna be mexicans i guess they are considered better than Wendimu. Now whose racist?

They can all come...who will you deny and on what criteria?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by ker2010

 

And are you a racist because a majority of illegals are mexicans what makes them better than Wendimu down in ethiopia who is in way worse shape than mexico?

Do you see me saying that Wendimu people can't come to the United States? If they want to come work...they are welcomed by me. Probably not by you unless they speak english and drop all their customs though...right?

The argument is extreme? NO its not dont back peddle buddy. You say we should help everyone in poverished countrys.

No...I never said we should help everyone...I said we should welcome everyone so they can help themselves. There is a big difference. I am actually against the majority of foreign aid we hand out. But I would welcome anyone, and in any amounts, that want to come here to work for a better life.

Well guess what? Thats billions!!! Not extreme just a fact. SO we cant let billions in who do we let in freely? How is that decided? Looks like its gonna be mexicans i guess they are considered better than Wendimu. Now whose racist?

They can all come...who will you deny and on what criteria?

Do you realize if they all come USA will become a 3rd world country and more than likely will end up worse than were they came from? AKA sinking the whole ship bringing us all down.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by jfj123

 

Nothing like completely disregarding everything I've said...
If you can justify taking in unlimited numbers of impoverished people, then we are talking in the billions. If you can't justify taking in unlimited numbers, then YOU sir are also greedy and selfish Again your logic not mine

I support anyone who wants to come here and work for a better life. If that is 1 billion...then yes I support it.

Do you understand the the US simply doesn't have the resources to support 1.3 billion people? And if we don't have the resources, how can you support them coming here?

Of course we can support the tradition of legal immigration to the US. We just don't support ILLEGAL immigration. Oh and since no other country including mexico, supports ILLEGAL immigration, every country in the world must be greedy and selfish....again your logic

And "legal" immigration should consist of arriving at the border with the willingness to work. Not letting those in that can pay for the lawyers and fees to file the papers.

So if members of al queda show up at the border and they want to work, we should let them in ?

Of course...you see we need to in hopes that you might understand an extreme as you can't understand our other attempts to explain very basic ideas to you.

I understand just fine...I understand that the two of you have been caught up in the game of politicians telling you this is a huge problem so they can get votes. And then the issue will dissapear after the election.

Actually I understand it's a problem because it is a problem. I've seen the problem first hand for years and it has nothing to do with what a politician says or might support.


[edit on 23-5-2010 by jfj123]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

They can all come...who will you deny and on what criteria?

So you must think every other country in the world is more selfish than the US right?

And would you welcome criminals? because as you've said
"I support anyone who wants to come here and work for a better life. "

[edit on 23-5-2010 by jfj123]

How about this for a solution:

1. Any illegal CRIMINALS who are caught, get sent back immediately & are forbidden from ever setting foot on American soil again.
2. Any illegal LAW ABIDING person is given food & shelter & allowed to VOLUNTEER (that means laboring & not earning an income) in the community for a total of 5 months, then they must leave.

I figured we could at least be nice to the ones who haven't been causing any problems. Five months would give them enough time to figure out where they wanted to go next.
Fair?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by jfj123

 

So you are saying you disagree with this American tradition:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

==============================================
First of all that was a POEM, written in 1883, which was 127 years ago by Emma Lazarus, and yes I know it's enscribed on the statue of liberty. And as you indicated, that is a tradition. I was wondering when you were going to imply that it is a law.

Second, things have changed a lot since 1883. The United States was still in an aggressive acquistion mode for more "citizens" at that time, and even then did not welcome illegals who tried to sneak in the back door.....guess that part was not understood......., and we are definitely not living in the 1800's.

Third, traditions change over time. While those words have powerful sentiment, they should hardly be considered or used as an open door policy for all times in support of illegal immigration; those words are frequently used by factions supporting illegal immigration in a attempt to induce feelings of guilt which works quite well in some instances.

America is and will continue to evolve as a country, and its laws
need to be respected by all persons who live here, and will continue to welcome legal immigration. Are there state and federal laws that need to be modified/changed or even eliminated in some cases because they either no longer apply or become outdated? Absolutely.

Is it ok for one state such as Arizona, and potentially 17 more states to enact similiar laws, if the federal government is either not able, or willing to enforce existing immigration law to the extent necessary to resolve the problem, and protect American citizens, resident aliens, and those who are trying to go thru the immigration process legally? Absolutely. Will changes be made to the Arizona llaw and other states who enact similiar legislation. Undoubtably, and in the instance of Arizona, changes have already been made, prior to the law's effective date.

So to answer your original question, do we disagree with the tradition?
The answer is no, but as previously indicated, traditions change over time, and it is time for all persons who wish to move here to recognize that fact and adapt to circumstances in the modern day world.















[edit on 23-5-2010 by manta78]

[edit on 23-5-2010 by manta78]

Originally posted by Afterthought

2. Any illegal LAW ABIDING person is given food & shelter & allowed to VOLUNTEER (that means laboring & not earning an income) in the community for a total of 5 months, then they must leave.

That is the most ridiculous idea I have heard concerning this.

Instead of letting a private employer use his own money to pay the employee, you want tax payers to front their food and shelter while the employer gets free labor. Think about it. You just can't give someone food and shelter, it has to come from somewhere and someone's pockets.

reply to post by ker2010

Do you realize if they all come USA will become a 3rd world country and more than likely will end up worse than were they came from? AKA sinking the whole ship bringing us all down.

No, you would only think this if YOU view them as sub-standard humans.

I veiw them as equals who were born into a country without the opportunities that we have here. They are no less than any American...they just have been dealt a poor hand.

So in MY view...they come here as equals...they now have the opportunities and contribute to our society. YOU seem to see them as sub-standard humans that will drag our society down.

It's sad if that is truly how you see these people.

reply to post by jfj123

Do you understand the the US simply doesn't have the resources to support 1.3 billion people? And if we don't have the resources, how can you support them coming here?

Do you have sources to back that claim up? You completely ignored my request for a source of your other claim. Do you actually have facts to back up these statements...or are they just your random factless beliefs?

So if members of al queda show up at the border and they want to work, we should let them in ?

And once again...taking it to the extreme. And of course I didn't say that...and what exactly are you suggesting? We don't let in anyone because they might be "al queda"? Or should we just put middle easterns on the list that aren't allowed in the country?

Actually I understand it's a problem because it is a problem. I've seen the problem first hand for years and it has nothing to do with what a politician says or might support.

Keep telling yourself that.

Care to share your first hand experience...exactly what "problems" have you seen???

reply to post by jfj123

So you must think every other country in the world is more selfish than the US right?

Did I ever say no other country is selfish? I don't know of any other country that has had a message since it's founding of welcoming all other countries poor and tired to come here to work for a better life.

Are you saying you want to take the lead of other countries and follow them...doesn't sound to American to me...sounds like you just want to let others dictate how we operate.

I saw you post Mexican's immigration laws eariler...are you saying we should be looking up to them for advice on our laws? Really?

And would you welcome criminals? because as you've said
"I support anyone who wants to come here and work for a better life. "

Define "criminal" anyway...by who's law? And current "criminal"...past "criminal"...what or who are you exactly talking about.

It's a nice little "trap" question...but you will have to expand furhter on it. It was a nice attempted trap though.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by ker2010

 

Do you realize if they all come USA will become a 3rd world country and more than likely will end up worse than were they came from? AKA sinking the whole ship bringing us all down.

No, you would only think this if YOU view them as sub-standard humans.

I think you're missing OS's point entirely. It has nothing to do with being sub-standard as you call it but entirely to do with resources. Do you not understand that if there are not enough resources, people can't get them?
If there are more people then jobs, people won't have jobs.
If there are more people then food to go around, people will starve.
If there are more people then places to live, people will be homeless.
etc...
It's all about resources. Do you get it now ?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by jfj123

 

So you must think every other country in the world is more selfish than the US right?

Did I ever say no other country is selfish?

And since we have more immigrants come in per year then all other countries combined, we must be the least selfish yet you're accusing us of being the most selfish.

Are you saying you want to take the lead of other countries and follow them...doesn't sound to American to me...sounds like you just want to let others dictate how we operate.

Sorry I have no idea what you're talking about.

I saw you post Mexican's immigration laws eariler...are you saying we should be looking up to them for advice on our laws? Really?

Not at all. Once again, you've missed my point entirely. You're condemning the US for it's laws which are much more immigrant friendly then mexico's yet you seem to support mexico and condemn the US.

And would you welcome criminals? because as you've said
"I support anyone who wants to come here and work for a better life. "

Define "criminal" anyway...by who's law? And current "criminal"...past "criminal"...what or who are you exactly talking about.

Really ? do we really need to go over this?
Fine...
Since the person(s) would be coming into the US, we must assume the use of United States criminal law.
Now lets say that person A walks up to the border where your border rules are enforced and the only question you ask them is if they plan on working hard and they say, "YES of course !"
So automatically, do you let them in ? Do you want to know anything about their background? Maybe they're coming here because they're a serial killer in mexico. But because you don't care about those things, you let them in and now they're killing in the US....GOOD JOB !!
Again, what if they're with al queda? Based on your ideas, you would let them in right? YES OR NO ? Simple question.



[edit on 23-5-2010 by jfj123]