Riddle me this Athiests...

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

You could have just as easily been programmed to think that raping babies is a "good" thing.

No... BUT WAIT, isn't that exactly what you're arguing God could do? You say later on that God could alter facts and change his mind and whatever he decides is moral is objectively moral.

Yes, but... you're not making any point. If anything, you're only strengthening my argument. You say if there is a God, then He could change anything He wanted whenever He wanted. First of all, why do you assume He would? The Bible? I've already told you I'm not here to talk about the Biblical God. Can you put that straw man to rest? Secondly, I believe God will do the right thing and that anything He does is correct because He preceded me, is absolute power, and is all-knowing. Also, any kind of thinking I do is derived from Him, so to borrow a quote, for me to undermine Him would be like cutting off the branch on which I stand (with Him being the tree). I have faith in what God does... Evidently, you have faith in what evolution is. I just find it funny that you've decided to place faith in an "is" though. In fact, you have so much faith placed in what evolution is and what it has done that when I ask you why we should care about survival, you start explaining to me what evolution is, like it's some kind of law that cannot be challenged, like you can derive what we should do with what is.

[edit on 21-6-2010 by ChickenPie]

reply to post by ChickenPie

I'm asking you why we should place importance on evolution and you're answering by explaining what evolution is, missing the boat completely.

You're right, I have no idea what in the heck you're talking about here. What do you mean why should we place importance on evolution? Because its the natural process that we stem from.

There is no reason to trust your rationality or morality if it's a product of an "is," especially if that "is" just so happened to be and was not created by an intelligent source.

But I already told you it is not all nature it is part nurture, meaning our minds made it up, woosh, out of thin air only using the brain evolution gave us as a basic framework for our ideas. Our ideas are our own, NOT EVOLUTIONS.

If there is a God who directed evolution WHY does that make my rationality more trust worthy?

Yeah, but why should we pass on our genes? Why should we try and survive? Why should we follow any of our feelings? You've never answered me.

I've answered you repeatedly you apparently don't feel satisfied by my answer. Why should we pass on our genes? Because its the primary function of all organisms. However human beings have big enough brains to find other functions within our complex society and to have our own aspirations and goals outside of the simple reproductive instinct and we also have the ability to decide NOT to pass on genes. Why should we survive? To pass on our genes or for other personal reasons like fear of dying or wanting to accomplish a particular goal.

Like I said, life at the base level is still trying to reproduce, that's its primary function but with our big brains we humans have expanded that and now can desire things other than passing on our genes. So can monkeys, dogs and most other intelligently leaning animals. Chimps for instance have sex just as much for pleasure as for procreation just like we do - that pleasure payoff is an evolutionary adaptation so that we are rewarded with pleasure for behavior that might further the species.

Why should we follow our feelings? I don't know. What am I your therapist? If you can't find good reason to follow your dreams than don't do anything, just sit there and stagnate if you want. The choice is yours. Like I said our big brains allow us a wide range of choices, emotions and an almost unlimited imagination. We don't have to pass on genes, we don't have to survive (people can commit suicide) and we don't have to follow our feelings. But it turns out we do want those things usually.

Most people want to pass on their genes. Most people want to survive (because surviving gives you a better chance of passing on your genes).

reply to post by ChickenPie

Secondly, I believe God will do the right thing and that anything He does is correct because He preceded me, is absolute power, and is all-knowing.

But why do you believe God will do the right thing? If God can make up the morals as he goes and they are automatically correct what is stopping him from decided that your example, raping babies, is okay? According to this argument it is easier for God to decide raping babies is good than for a morally subjective society to do so because the society must first find a positive function for the behavior while God can just command that it is moral and it automatically becomes such.

And what is the right thing you are referring to here? Where did your concept of what the right thing comes from? If it comes from your God who can decide to make anything moral than it is even more meaningless than the subjective morals of society.

I have faith in what God does... Evidently, you have faith in what evolution is.

But what does God do? We've already discussed how if there is one he/she/it appears quite absent and leaves no evidence behind. Evolution leaves evidence behind, so I don't need faith in it, I know it happened.

like it's some kind of law that cannot be challenged, like you can derive what we should do with what is.

Umm... what? You asked why we should care about survival and passing on our genes. Those are both linked directly to evolution. How else could I answer the question? And I already stated we don't necessarily HAVE TO care about the passing on of genes or he survival, its just most of us do because of evolution, not because we have faith in it but because the process led to organisms being little more than sophisticated containers for genetic information.

Remember that we are basically just organic gene containers with bigger brains. The base construct evolution has built onto us is important but I wouldn't say I have "faith" in it, I would say I have a basic understanding of it.

Even if it could be construed as faith, and it cannot because evolution is a reality and not something supernatural, it would still be more solid in its foundation than conjuring a massive being in the sky to explain why evolution works or why we care about genes being passed on or whatever other question you can come up with.

The God did it answer answers nothing and leaves us ignorant. We can't study or learn anything more about God but we can learn more about evolution and how it works.

Speaking of which if you don't like my answers please look into evolution. I'm not an evolutionary biologist I only know so much about it.

[edit on 21-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

I had a nice time talking to you, but you have no idea where I'm coming from. That might be my fault for not being articulate enough. No worries.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer:
I've met lots of people with your attitude: those who espace reality and then believe that their drug trips ARE reality.

I didn't say I believe drug trips to be reality at all. I said entheogens can help you to understand reality in a much more open-minded sense.. during and after the experience.

Originally posted by sirnex:
What a moronic idea. Please do not promote drug use on ATS, children do frequent this forum.

Kids, drugs are bad! They do not make you see more than there is. What they do is screw up how your brain works, causing hallucinations, poor judgment, and you could potentially end up having a bad trip. Depending upon the severity and the dosage, you could permanently damage your brain, end up in a coma, or end up dead.

Children frequent this forum? Oh please, don't be ridiculous. If someone seriously takes my post as a green light to go out and try psychedelics, so be it. It's their decision, I'm just being honest.

Whereas you just come across sounding foolish with your little fear mongering, FDA approved, reefer-madness speech.

There are very few or no documented deaths due to any chemical toxicity of '___'. It is physiologically non-toxic to the human body. Less toxic than alcohol, nicotine or coffee, actually.

Sure it is a test on mental strength and people can experience bad trips, but this is usually a result of being in the wrong setting with the wrong people. It's obviously not for everyone.

Originally posted by sirnex: Drugs do nothing to expand your understanding of reality.

This is precisely what entheogens DO. Spoken like someone with no idea, sorry.

reply to post by steve_oZ


Okay steve, you've defended your opinion on how some drugs open the mind but what does this have to do with the God question?

Do the experiences of people taking these drugs help prove or disprove the existence of a deity?

reply to post by steve_oZ

Children frequent this forum? Oh please, don't be ridiculous.

Are you trying to say you don't think there are any children on this web site? Oh please, don't be ridiculous, yourself.

If someone seriously takes my post as a green light to go out and try psychedelics, so be it.

How else should a statement like this be taken?

Anyone who doesn't believe in God / Creator or a higher power of any sort needs to try '___' or mushrooms.

Needs to try? Perhaps a bad choice of wording on your behalf if your not seriously telling non-believers that they "need to try" hallucinogenic drugs.

It's their decision, I'm just being honest.

Being honest? How is telling people that they "need to" take hallucinogenic drugs that do nothing but screw up your mind as being honest?

No, what your doing is pushing an ignorant opinion. A previous user admitted to taking those substances and is still an Atheist. My wife, sister and a few friends have all taken LCD/Shrooms and they are still Atheists.

I think the important question here is, were you a spiritual person before you had your first trip? Were you prone to belief in any supernatural subjects before your first trip? That right there would tell us everything we need to know about your "honesty".

Whereas you just come across sounding foolish with your little fear mongering, FDA approved, reefer-madness speech.

Ah yes, another wonderful loudmouth exclaiming the complete evilness of the entire system. Get a life. Is the FDA perfect, no, of course not. They set regulations based on current findings. '___' can and does and is documented to having serious health problems if abused. You can build a tolerance which necessitates a need to increase dosage creating a greater chance of serious harm.

There are very few or no documented deaths due to any chemical toxicity of '___'. It is physiologically non-toxic to the human body. Less toxic than alcohol, nicotine or coffee, actually.

Yea OK... If you want to pretend that the drug is made properly from your supplier. Go ahead, take the risk. Only a 50/50 chance of something going wrong, no big deal right? It makes you seeee things man!

Sure it is a test on mental strength and people can experience bad trips, but this is usually a result of being in the wrong setting with the wrong people. It's obviously not for everyone.

Yea, who cares about the potentials of having a bad trip and either harming yourself seriously, or other, or possibly even dying as a result or killing others and ending up in jail. YOU SEEEEE THING'S MAN!

This is precisely what entheogens DO. Spoken like someone with no idea, sorry.

My sister saw herself melting into orange juice. My wife saw tiny pink elephants flying around the room. Please, enlighten me on how this expanded their understanding of reality.

Originally posted by havok

I believe that the reason people denounce God is this:

Because they don't want to be held accountable for their actions.

I had to re-read this quote to make sure that you really said this.

You are completely arse-backwards on this topic. People generally turn to religions such as Christianity and Islam because they are lost and confused about the world they live in. A lot of the times these people use their religion to justify their actions. They use this angle so they DO NOT have to be held accountable for said actions. They pass this accountability onto "god" or "allah".

For christ sake if you're "christian" your accounting only needs to go as far as confessing your sins and to "repent" for those said sins. WoW, what a complete cop out of accountability.

Originally posted by steve_oZ
I didn't say I believe drug trips to be reality at all. I said entheogens can help you to understand reality in a much more open-minded sense.. during and after the experience.

Oh, is that what you said? Because this is what you wrote:

Anyone who doesn't believe in God / Creator or a higher power of any sort needs to try '___' or mushrooms.

Should help dissolve that ego and self righteous arrogance many 'proud' atheists seem to have

Seems to me you seem to think you need to alter your reality to "understand reality in a much more open-minded sense". Oh, and to believe in god.

While I do believe that hallucinogenic substances can lead to wonderfully transcendent experiences I don't for a minute think that it causes belief in deities nor dissolves one's atheism. If you "saw god" or whatever caused this belief for you I suspect you have some difficulty discerning the effects of chemicals in your brain from reality.

reply to post by Blue Shift


If there was a God.. he/she/it would totally "thumbs up" to your reply, Blue Shift.

Common Sense should be the only religion.

Originally posted by Titen-SxullDo the experiences of people taking these drugs help prove or disprove the existence of a deity?

Noun:

entheogen

1. A psychoactive substance used for the purpose of inducing a mystical or spiritual experience.


Atheists don't believe in spirits or the spirit world or a creator / God, correct?

So yes I believe it helps open your eyes and your mind to certain things.

A couple of quotes I like that help convey my opinions on this topic.


From the late great Bill Hicks, his final show.

You know what Rush Limbaugh said about pee-pee jokes?

Dad, I’ve heard it, it’s called Archie Bunker; who was another fat, white, fear mongering, conservative, stupid, white-male ego talking. I’ve heard it! Rush has nothing to offer me. See Dad, there’s this little weird thing that grows on a cow turd, it’s really weird, lets go listen to it talk! Folks it’s time to evolve, man, that’s why we’re troubled.

You know why our institutions are failing us? The church, the state, everything’s failing? It’s cause’ they’re no longer relevant. They’re not relevant anymore! We’re supposed to keep evolving. You know evolution didn’t end with us growing opposable thumbs, did you know that? There’s another 90 percent of our brains that we have to illuminate.

Illuminate... that brings me back to that little thing that grows on a cow turd.

I tried to get my dad to trip with me once, which is ah, kinda dangerous. That could be very heavy duty for the man, he’s 75. I dunno if he’d get what I get out of it ya know? I'd hate to have my dad weeping next to me: "I just looove Rush!"

Dad, this is not the outcome we're supposed to get from this. It's supposed to be where your ego dissolves and you realize the true nature of our reality which is mind, and that we literally are all one and there's no such thing as death and our bodies are an illusion and God's eternal love is unconditional and never have we left it other than to dream of the fall from grace, which is just an illusionary dream and never has God been unloving to us and we can wake up and remember God's eternal, unconditional love.

"I just wanna watch Rush!"

Oh sh!t, Dad's not getting off on these like I am!

I guess I have to do the only thing I CAN do: acceptance and forgiveness. They're the only tools we've got left… and evolution, if you're interested in it.

Confucius used to say; “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” and he said it as an enigmatic way to say there would be no sound. But you know what I say to that? [shakes right hand making clapping sound] Fu(k Confucius! Let’s move on.

It’s time for a new philosophy folks, one based on, yes, the principals of Jesus which were love your brother as yourself, cause ya know what? He is yourself, literally! Hahaha! We are literally all one. The body is an illusion, you see? Cause’ God doesn’t create things that can be destroyed.. cause’ he’s God! Dig it!? We have mis-created this world. It’s a dream. What’s the old song? ‘Row row row your boat, gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily, life.. is but a dream.’ See we knew it as children, we forgot it since.

and a man who influenced Bill a great deal:

"'___' burst over the dreary domain of the constipated bourgeoisie like the angelic herald of a new psychedelic millennium. We have never been the same since, nor will we ever be, for '___' demonstrated, even to skeptics, that the mansions of heaven and gardens of paradise lie within each and all of us." - Terence McKenna

Talk to someone or research those who have taken ayahuasca and see if they believe in a spirit world etc.

The internet seems to be filled with many arrogant, close-minded atheists, so I'm aware it is pointless for me to continue in this thread.

reply to post by steve_oZ


I've heard Bill Hick's drug related material and while certainly I respect his personal views on the subject they also helped contribute to his premature death.

I have no personal policy on these drugs though I am generally prone to look down on those that are artificial and legal and view those that are natural as less dangerous.

I don't think any 'spirit world' discovered while taking these substances could be considered real. The experiences themselves are subjective and vary greatly. Science deals in objective reality and evidence based thinking not in the subjective observations of a brain chemically interacting with a drug. Please don't mistake that as closed minded, I'd love to believe experiences on these drugs are "real" or really do blow the doors of perception wide but they seem to me nothing more than chemically induced hallucinations that, perhaps, have subjective value but are not part of objective reality.

Originally posted by steve_oZ

Talk to someone or research those who have taken ayahuasca and see if they believe in a spirit world etc.

The internet seems to be filled with many arrogant, close-minded atheists, so I'm aware it is pointless for me to continue in this thread.

Why is it that we only hear this phrase from arrogant, closed-minded theists? Even worse, it's coming from someone apparently unable to discern a chemically induced state of consciousness from reality.

Yes, yes...okay. You took some drugs and saw god. Good for you. Present some evidence other than your subjective experience and perhaps we can discuss something besides your insistence on indulgence in drug use.

reply to post by steve_oZ

Atheists don't believe in spirits or the spirit world or a creator / God, correct?

So yes I believe it helps open your eyes and your mind to certain things.

My wife and sister were Atheists before 'tripping' and were Atheists after 'tripping'. As are other people I know who have partaken in those drugs.

Please enlighten me on how seeing yourself melt into orange juice or seeing tiny pink elephants flying around a room helps expand your understanding of reality or shows you there is a god.

The internet seems to be filled with many arrogant, close-minded atheists, so I'm aware it is pointless for me to continue in this thread.

In retrospect, there appears to be quiet a few arrogant closed minded spiritualist druggies who dismiss those Atheists who HAVE taken the very drugs that the spiritualist druggies claim will make those Atheist spiritualistic.

Your argument holds no water at all and all your doing is dismissing the fact that some Atheists do take hallucinogenic drugs and still remain Atheists. Your nothing more than a spiritualist druggie while pretending that your coveted drugs make you somehow more connected to reality by melting you into orange juice and making you see tiny pink elephants flying around a room.

How this get's translated into God is beyond me.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by sirnex]

Yes, every person in history who has every taken entheogens or '___' has only seen pink elephants and melting orange juice.

These arguments you present honestly sound like someone who has not tripped at all. They sound very cliche to be honest. But each to their own.

Interesting fact: Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick discovered the DNA molecule while on '___'. It appears he was able to 'see more of reality' while under the influence of the drug.

One other question I have for you atheist folk - what is your opinion on the pineal gland? In conjunction with the fact they put fluoride in our drinking water and additives in our foods to help calcify this gland.

reply to post by steve_oZ

Interesting fact: Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick discovered the DNA molecule while on '___'. It appears he was able to 'see more of reality' while under the influence of the drug.

Really? I don't recall reading that in his book. He already knew it was helix. The data suggested that. There had been other helical suggestions before them including single, double, and triple helices.

The evidence that Crick was high on '___' comes from not directly from Crick it seems. It seems that the source for this story is a newspaper reporter that wrote that he spoke to a drug maker that told how he talked to Crick about this.

This is about as weak a story as you could get.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


Please explain how gluttony and greed are any worse than lust. Can't you be gluttonous and greedy without affecting someone else similar to lust?

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by steve_oZ

 

Interesting fact: Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick discovered the DNA molecule while on '___'. It appears he was able to 'see more of reality' while under the influence of the drug.

Really? I don't recall reading that in his book. He already knew it was helix. The data suggested that. There had been other helical suggestions before them including single, double, and triple helices.

The evidence that Crick was high on '___' comes from not directly from Crick it seems. It seems that the source for this story is a newspaper reporter that wrote that he spoke to a drug maker that told how he talked to Crick about this.

This is about as weak a story as you could get.

Okay maybe the validity of the Francis Crick story can be questioned. But why on earth would any 'respectable' publisher want to point out to it's readers that he took 'illegal drugs' during his time researching? That wouldn't go down too well.

Also, Kary Mullis has been quoted.

reply to post by steve_oZ

Yes, every person in history who has every taken entheogens or '___' has only seen pink elephants and melting orange juice.

That's not what I said. I clearly said that was what THEY saw. Now, you're the one who made the claim that Atheists should take these drugs so they could see "god" and/or get a better understanding of reality. Your still not explaining how my Atheist wife and Atheist sister are still Atheist or how their experience under the influence of the drugs has expanded their understanding of reality.

Interesting fact: Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick discovered the DNA molecule while on '___'. It appears he was able to 'see more of reality' while under the influence of the drug.

Interesting fact: Your uneducated.

One other question I have for you atheist folk - what is your opinion on the pineal gland? In conjunction with the fact they put fluoride in our drinking water and additives in our foods to help calcify this gland.

Interesting fact: The New Age movement latched onto the pineal gland as a so called "third eye" because NON-MAMMALIAN species pinealocytes RESEMBLE photo-receptors SUGGESTING the pineal gland shared a common ancestor with retinal cells. The job of the pineal gland in mammalian species is to regulate circadian rhythm. That's what tells you when to get up and when to go to sleep if your curious or interesting in learning real facts rather than that made up BS nonsense you pretend is a fact.

But why on earth would any 'respectable' publisher want to point out to it's readers that he took 'illegal drugs' during his time researching? That wouldn't go down too well.

Probably for the same reason you perpetuate such uneducated garbage. Trying to glorify drug usage making it appear less harmful than it really is.

Duuuude, my drugs man, they make me seeee things!

Duuuude, my drugs man, they helped me discover the double helix structure of DNA maaaaan!

Also, Kary Mullis has been quoted.

"Hofmann revealed that he was told by Nobel-prize-winning chemist Kary Mullis...

Not sure how you personally view something as factual, but for myself, if there is no direct quotation from the person in question then I generally dismiss so called said fact. This is for all intents and purposes nothing but heresy. Gandhi once professed his love of nuclear warheads to me during lunch at Mc'Donald's.

reply to post by steve_oZ

But why on earth would any 'respectable' publisher want to point out to it's readers that he took 'illegal drugs' during his time researching? That wouldn't go down too well.

The publisher of what? Are you referring to the tabloid making a few bucks with a sensational story for its gullible masses getting another nonsense story? It apparently earned some money.

You could be tipping a pint and saying, "Oh look I'm a scientist and delving into the structure of nature?"

We do know that Crick took drugs. Did it give him insight into the structure of DNA? Unlikely. He and others had been working on the structure of DNA for a long time with many different models.

It's a pathetic attempt to claim that drugs "open the mind", "free you of the bonds of your education", "let you see reality", and whatever other glib comments are used to support taking dangerous drugs.