Undocumented student's arrest called part of 'civil rights disaster'

reply to post by Wolf321


I am going to have to say that a child's bond with their parents, is most likely going to come before any understanding of our laws (man made and written on paper) or the concept of boarders. I would question any child's moral values if they decided to deport their parents in order to have a better life for themselves.

The only situation where I would have any respect for that child is if the parents force them to do it. I know that I place my family before any law (written on paper); my family shares the same blood.

reply to post by Styki


I would have more respect for the kid if they did the right thing despite their family. *That 'do the right thing' value is more in line with America than criminal nepotism. America needs more of the former and less of the later.

Doing something you know is wrong because you are related is not justification, and a concept that would utterly break down civilization.

If my kid wants a toy I can't afford, I don't steal it. Or if my brother is selling drugs, I don't keep quite, I turn the f*er in.

If I discover I am benefiting from something that I learn is illegal, I sure as heck am going to tell someone.

I teach and expect my kids to always do the right thing no matter what.

*edit to add.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by Wolf321]

reply to post by Southern Guardian

This still does not justify the 'show your papers' while your walking through the park law in Arizona in my eyes.

I agree.. no one should be spontaneously asked for "their papers" whether illegal, tourist or citizen. But, the law in AZ is not now designed for spontaneous stops, you can only be asked for your "papers" while being stopped in the act of some kind of crime .. traffic stop or what not.

reply to post by Wolf321


I think doing the "right" thing is what we will ultimately disagree over. I don't necessarily think that all of our laws are morally correct. We all know that they have not been in the past and I believe that it is far to say so now.

There are rules which most people can agree upon. I would not steal a toy for a child. I would help the child set up a lemon aid stand to make money. If a cousin of mine stole something then I believe they should pay the price. That legal punishment is a lesson which is meant to guide the offender in the right direction in the future.

In the case of a child who has been brought over the boarder illegally I believe the "right and the "wrong" become unclear. I can understand why letting the child stay would hurt the complex system which our society has become. On the other hand, forcing this child to leave everything that she has come to know in her memorable lifetime dose not necessarily seem right. For these reasons I believe we can all understand why this issue will be debated long after it's resolution.

typing issues...
[edit on 16-5-2010 by Styki]

[edit on 16-5-2010 by Styki]

Originally posted by Styki
I can understand why letting the child stay would hurt the complex system which our society has become. On the other hand, forcing this child to leave everything that she has come to know in her memorable lifetime dose not necessarily seem right. For these reasons I believe we can all understand why this issue will be debated long after it's resolution.

I understand you perspective, and agree its all a bit fuzzy. I just come down to the bottom line, that despite the unfortunate nature of sending a child who has spent their whole life here, back to an essentially foreign place, civilization, sovereignty, and security demand it.

That aspect cannot be the focus of the issue. Instead the focus should be on the carrots being dangled for those to come, to stay and the system to be taken advantage of via anchor babies etc.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by Wolf321]

Originally posted by space cadet


So this girl has been in the US illegally since she was 11, she is now 21, was stopped for a traffic violation ( which btw has not been revealed what that was originally) and it was discovered she is an illegal alien, no license, no insurance, and she had been stopped just last week in Alabama and was taken to a deportation facilty, but was released.

So in the 10 years she has been here she has taken advantage of the system to get into college, most likely as a minority she quickly sailed in and used every available financial assistance there is, she is about to graduate that college with honors.
Smart enough to beat the system and get into college, make great grades, but not smart enough to become legal, not smart enough to drive legally, at what point would she become legal? How many students get turned down for a rightful spot in college because it is filled by an illegal alien?
I am sure she is not the only one.

I am all for education, but it fails to impress me that she was driving with no license, no insurance but yet eligible to recieve grants see her way through college, something my wonderful, american neice cannot do. She is legal, she was an honor student, but when applying for assistance she was not eligible for enough grant money to see her way through. And I am talking about the same damn college. KSU.

Now supporters think she should not be deported because she was 'only trying to get an education'. How freakin smart do you have to be to know you are ILLEGAL and need to fix that before you go taking advantage of programs you are not elligible for? How smart was she to continually drive with no insurance? At what point does an illegal make him/her self legal? How?

This is maddening. I think of my niece, actually 3 of them, who applied themselves and could have benifitted greatly by being in college, no wonder that there aren't enough grant funds for them.


I agree with you in that she wasnt suppose to be driving in the United States America with any papers. But trying to get an education is something very different, you are acting as if she has commited murder all she has got on her record is a traffic violation. In many of our native countries we have become starved for education but our nations have been curropted by the United states of America, and i dont know if its just me but education and grants should only be giving to those who want to learn. As a fellow american i feel sorry for what happened to your neice but dont blame immigrants for being in a counrty that offers them hope and wealth if you work hard. THE REAL PROBLEM IS WHY SHOULDNT EVERY PERSON IN THIS WORLD BE EDUCATED, THE REAL PROBLEM IS MONEY........think about it

www.cnn.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Originally posted by Rockpuck

In cases of Children I'd have to say it's not THEIR fault that their parents brought them here illegally... however this particular girl doesn't seem to have any sense of respect for the law.. no license, no insurance etc.. when she graduated, how did she expect to get a job if she couldn't even get a license? .. Buy someones identity?

Thats my problem with illegal immigration. If they make an exception for themselves in one area of the law because following the law is inconvenient, they learn that they can make exceptions for themselves whenever it is convenient to do so.

We dont need more people in America who think that the laws are for the suckers. We already have enough CEO's and politicians.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by panictalk16
In many of our native countries we have become starved for education but our nations have been curropted by the United states of America, and i dont know if its just me but education and grants should only be giving to those who want to learn.

You know, I know my government interferes with other countries when it shouldnt. And I know that South America is full of countries that our government is interfering in. But it is not all the fault of America and Americans that some of those countries lack good educational systems. I do agree, that we as Americans need to pull our heads out of our butts, and insist that our tax dollars are not used to "promote democracy" where it is not wanted.

Originally posted by panictalk16
As a fellow american i feel sorry for what happened to your neice but dont blame immigrants for being in a counrty that offers them hope and wealth if you work hard. THE REAL PROBLEM IS WHY SHOULDNT EVERY PERSON IN THIS WORLD BE EDUCATED, THE REAL PROBLEM IS MONEY........think about it

Here, I dislike the way many groups are calling ILLEGAL immigrants just "immigrants." It confuses the issue, and it is a deliberate attempt by those groups to make it seem as if Americans who protest ILLEGAL immigration are racist, etc. Most of us have no problem with immigrants. We have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants.

And yes, it would be nice if everyone in the world had an education and hope and wealth. I agree. Just like I feel it would be nice if everyone had an apartment and enough food for dinner.

But if YOU have an apartment and enough food for dinner for your family, would you want my family, and a couple other families moving into your apartment with you, without your permission, and pushing you away from the table and eating up all your food? Do you want to be hungry in your own home because I feel entitled to come to your house and take what you have without permission?

Of course you would not allow that.

The fact of the matter is that not all Americans can get an education. Many of them cannot afford it, and there are only so many spots available.

When ILLEGAL immigrants come in and use the funds we set aside to educate poor Americans, and take the spots available for Americans in those schools, it means some of our own have to do without.

No matter how much you may care for the other people of the world, you have to take care of your own people first, and then what you have extra can be given away. In America right now, there is not enough even for our own people. And there is not enough even to pay our debt. And our politicians are out of control, and we have mess to clean up here, and ILLEGAL immigration is not making it any easier for us.

If we are not careful, America is going to turn into the same mess that the countries these people are leaving are. Which is why some of us want to stop ILLEGAL immigration so that we can work on our own problems and make America the great country it once was so that LEGAL immigrants can come to a place that really does offer hope for a better life.

reply to post by Wolf321


I disagree.. What's the difference between a child born in America and a child dragged here at 5 years of age by their parents? They grow up in our school system, taught our social norms, grow up "American" .. why send them back to somewhere completely out of their element? I used to agree with your hardcore stance as well... but then I saw this story:

A girl who was Iranian had Iranian parents was very strict followers of the Islamic faith and refused to let her associate with anyone "not Persian". She ended up, despite her parents and their strict rules, being a typical American teenager. Dressed the same as typical Americans, talked the same without an accent, was still Muslim, but not hardcore, like typical children are "Christian" just not zealous you know... Now, could you justify sending her back to a country where she would be a social outcast because she was different, where she didn't speak the language and so on?

I think that's where the immigration problem gets really complicated.. In some cases they don't integrate will into society. The girl in the OP who was driving with no license and insurance, lying to police and so forth obviously didn't integrate very well. So perhaps it's best to go by a case by case basis instead of a broad brush of excluding everyone because of events that were outside of their control: Offer them special visas of sorts, not automatic citizenship, but give them a chance at least.

reply to post by Rockpuck


If she had been caught as a minor, I might have agreed with your sympathetic approach. Once you make it into adulthood and haven't said anything, sorry.

As for the example of the Iranian, assuming they are illegal, I believe it was earlier in this thread I said something about offering options to minors who have been here most of their lives.

I think the parents of such children should be deported and never allowed back. The children can stay either with legal relatives, foster parents, adoption or orphanages. Should the children choose to leave, they would be allowed back the same way any other immigrant would be allowed.

reply to post by Wolf321


I agree with ya, I've said so throughout the thread, and I'm talking specifically about minors. I'm just saying there should be some form of reform.. because someone who is illegal CANT just speak up, they'd get deported.

Reform is needed.. tis all I'm saying. Minors who have integrated deserve the right to choose, and should be offered steps toward citizenship (not offered outright) while adults should be deported.

Originally posted by Wolf321
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

I think the parents of such children should be deported and never allowed back. The children can stay either with legal relatives, foster parents, adoption or orphanages. Should the children choose to leave, they would be allowed back the same way any other immigrant would be allowed.

This is interesting because if you remember a few years back there was Elian. Cuban child that lost his mom coming over from Cuba. His father wanted him back in Cuba. His relatives in the US did not want him to go back.

They got the child to say that it was his choice to stay in the US but guess what he had no say in it. His dad decided that he would return to Cuba. US Cops burst in guns in hand and took him from his relatives home and sent him to his dad.

Children cannot choose and therefore are not responsible for the choices made by the parents.

Originally posted by daskakik
Children cannot choose and therefore are not responsible for the choices made by the parents.

Are you talking about them being forced here illegally, or being able to choose to stay behind if their parents were deported?

I think any kind of reform should allow illegal parents to opt into giving their kids to legal family, foster parents, be adopted or put into an orphanage. If the parents were more concerned with their kids having the opportunity for a better life, they would do it. It wouldn't actually be an option for the kids to make on their own.

I did earlier say something about incentivising children turning in illegal parents via the above, but that clearly cannot be done, but allowing them to return via standard process immigration is still viable.

Wow, the responses here are pretty varied. I would say that the majority of you consider it to simply come down to illegal is illegal and she should be deported.

The reason this case will become an example is that it is typical of what happens when an illegal couple comes here and has a child. Or brings a child here. It is an issue that the gov will have to deal with, has been putting off dealing with, and now this case will most likely be a catalyst to set a precedent for.

What else could this girl have done? I am sure by the time she graduated high school she was well aware that she was illegal.

Since she was in process of entering college I am compelled to believe she was aware she would have to lie about citizenship, or consider how to become a legal citizen, she could have applied for that at 18, then 5 yrs later become a citizen.

At what point does she stop living a lie, and begin to fix that? After college? During that time she would continue to drive with no legality, when she does get out of college, what now?
She still could not legally even produce an identification. How smart is that?

She was willing, as a young adult, to break the law every time she got in her car, and she didn't just drive to school, she drove out of state.
She was willing to defraud the school, the tax system, grant applications, and I just don't see at what point she has a plan to fix all that. So what good is this education when all the rest of what you do is illegal?

Was she going to graduate college, go back to Mexico and then come back legally, then in a few years pull out the ol college degree and get work? How do you explain educating abroad illegally? Educating Illegally. That term contradicts itself.

I would like to hear from any of you who disagree, and please, tell what you think is the answer to fix this, this girl is certainly not the only one doing this, but what is the answer? Do you think it should be ok for the children of illegal aliens to make some kind of application for citizenship when they arrive or are born? There has to be acountabilty. What are your suggestions ?

My sisters were born in Japan. My parents took the proper steps to make them legal here, but had they not, I would not have been shocked to see them sent back and put through the processes to become legal citizens.

reply to post by space cadet


I believe my posts have addressed all of your questions except part of the following:

Do you think it should be ok for the children of illegal aliens to make some kind of application for citizenship when they arrive or are born?

I have given my stance on children brought here illegally, but I will now address the anchor baby aspect.

I think the constitution needs to be amended to clarify what a citizen is, and that it should be:

persons born to two US citizens regardless of location, born to and claimed by one US citizen regardless of location, someone naturalized through the immigration process. A US citizen can not hold dual citizenship with any other nation. Citizenship cannot be gained or surrendered more than once. Citizenship of a natural born citizen cannot be removed. Citizenship of a naturalized citizen can only be removed by an act of Congress.

reply to post by Wolf321


Right in the post I was answering you used the phrase "should the child choose to leave" and that is what I was refering to.

I don't think many would be happy about taxes paying for foreign kids living in US orphanages.

As the law stands, contrary to the anchor baby theory, many illegal parents are deported and are told to take their children, US citizens, with them and that when they are older they can choose to return to the US.

Some may say that this is not true but I have first hand knowledge of three cases where this was what parents of "anchor babies" were told.

This of course does not mean that the parents could not sneak back in and work the system but they were not given a break at their hearing.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


No. She was self sufficient and doesn't need money and even schooling was a formality for her silver spoon heritage.
Jeesh. I self edit to the disdain of my entire body.


I'll leave it at this Common Sense just isn't so common anymore.

Originally posted by daskakik
I don't think many would be happy about taxes paying for foreign kids living in US orphanages.

My suggestions were what I believe is the best compromise for letting illegal children who have spent most of their lives here and have to a great degree, assimilated. I do think you are right, many might not like the idea of taxes supporting them. I also think, though, that any that would, under my idea, get to stay would be picked up by legal family, or adopted before being in foster care or orphanages. Plus, the cost of one to the tax payer would be less than the cost of the whole family staying.

As for the anchor baby cases. I have no reason do doubt you, but I would like to read about those cases. i would like to have heard the arguments for the child staying or going.

This discussion just goes to show us that there are many issues related that need to be worked out, the clear answer is just not there, unless the clear answer is, come here legally.

I work for naturalized citizens. They came here from India 10 yrs ago, and last year became US citizens. They still love to go to India, they still carry on their cultural behaviours, they hold true to their religion, their family is everything, and they are extremely productive and concerned citizens. They came from extreme poverty in India, their eldest brother came first and slowly brought the family, legally, to the US.

All they wanted was a good life for their children. A chance for them to make something of themselves. It was hard for them to separate while this process took place, but they dedicated themselves to it.
I hear several times a week and sometimes a day, people make racist remarks about the Indian community, and it is nothing but that , racism. But this is not racism, this is a legal matter, and an overwhelming problem in the US today, and one that must be answered.

Originally posted by space cadet
unless the clear answer is, come here legally.

Nail on the head.

The simplest answer is usually the right one