Undocumented student's arrest called part of 'civil rights disaster'

reply to post by space cadet


There are proposals that say if a child is brought here as a minor, and been here x number of years, and not been involved in crime, and has done well in school, that they should be given priority for citizenship. An expedited process that begins when they hit 18, and doesnt give the parents expedited citizenship. (So that you dont create another "anchor baby" type situation.)

I think it is a good idea. It isnt the childrens fault they are breaking our laws. Until they hit 18. Then it is. I think the solution hits all the right notes. It doesnt force us to naturalize undesirable illegal 18 year olds, but it allows illegal children who really want to make use of the opportunity here, and be good citizens the chance they deserve.

reply to post by Wolf321


I don't know if you have children but I have a daughter and she is the first thing I am grabbing if I have to move, bugg out or just plain duck for cover. I wouldn't leave my child with anyone for all the opportunities in the world.

This case comes to mind: Hawaii dad trusted his brother, but Kaiya instead was starved

The single father of a 5-year-old special-needs child who died in the care of an uncle said he recently had become concerned about his daughter's welfare and was planning to bring her back to Hawai'i when he got the call about her death.

I'm sure most good parents would not see leaving their child in an orphanage as a real option even if the the tax payers didn't mind footing the bill or if they were adopted quickly.

reply to post by daskakik


I think you and I can say that we would not leave our children because of the situations we are in.

If Mexico (or wherever) is so bad these illegals are risking their lives and those of their families, they may not be so reluctant to let their children stay here. If the don't want to separate their families despite the better opportunities, then they must feel Mexico (or wherever) is not so bad.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


That was the point I was trying to make about this particular girl. She was well aware she was here illegally. She turned 18 three years ago and was still driving around illegally, still not taking any steps to fix her situation, yet was smart enough to figure out how to get into college an no one be the wiser that she is not legal. I just cannot beleive that she was not planning to continue her life as an illegal, she did nothing to show her intent to become a legal citizen. Had she been involved in an accident while she was driving around state to state the other people involved would have been poo out of luck, she had no insurance. And no intent to fix that. It had been a month since her last violation and she still had done nothing.

edit to add: I was just reading on another site that when an illegal child turns 18 they have 181 days to process back into the country, anotherwords she could have left, and came back legally of her own accord.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by space cadet]

reply to post by Wolf321


Actually I'm in central america (much like mexico, maybe even a little worst) but what really drives people north isn't how bad it is here but how good people think it is in th US.

I guess there was a time when someone with a third grade education could find some manual labor that payed well enough. Now with the current situation those jobs are being sought out by citizens with a high school education.

They think I must be lying cause their cousin just came from up north and filled their heads with tales of how he is the 2nd in command of such and such company and he has so much money he doesn't know what to do with it and to prove it he's going to buy the house a round of beers.

What they don't know is that his cousin (or similar relative) is a BS artist and is putting everything on his credit card and will spend the rest of the fiscal year paying for his little trip back home.

reply to post by space cadet


I agree about this girl. She clearly has no regard for our laws, and like you say, she is not ignorant, she was able to get into college while illegal.

I have no sympathy for her. I think people in her situation, who are not only illegal, but who are caught violating other laws should be barred from citizen ship. Maybe for minor crimes allow them to try again in say 7 years or so, but more serious criminals should never be allowed to be citizens.

I think what people who think it is "harsh" that some of us feel this way need to remember is that society is an agreement between individuals. We all give up something to participate in society. We give up the right to do any old thing we want. We agree to moderate our behavior in certain ways by following laws and social mores.

If you want to join a society, but you dont want to agree to follow the laws and social mores, then you really dont want to join that society. You want to take what it has to offer, and give up nothing in return. In short, you are a "free rider" who is benefiting from the social agreement that others participate in, and sacrifice for, without yourself sacrificing anything.

And thats just not acceptable.

And it isnt racism, and there are good bodies of study to show WHY people feel this way. Game theory for one, in its work on altruism, cooperation and cheaters.

In these studies it is ALWAYS the case that people who are cooperators, or altruists, if they fail to select against cheating behavior, these cooperators ALWAYS are overrun by those who cheat. More nerdness than you probably cared to hear, but it is fascinating stuff.

Cooperation and altuism can only flourish in society if we punish and exclude those who "cheat" and dont cooperate.

This is a tough case. I do pity this girl, because she was taken with her parents, having no choice. Yes, she is illegal. Yes, she is committing a crime. But what should be done? If she is deported to a country she has no connection to, she may very well try to re-enter the US to get back to the only life she knows. Why not let her finish her school, since she is almost done anyway, give her a work visa, and fine her? If she did indeed use grant money to go to college, make her pay back every penny.

This issue has had too many threads.
The skeptic in me says look elsewhere. Something sneaky is going on under the limelight.

False flags come in may different manners. What is happening that is not being properly reported or researched due to this controversy...Many of us are drawn to this issue...I'm going to start a catch all tread in the greay area for this topic.
Damn! I have the feeling I used to have when making a chess move that I missed someithing right befor a loss.

We are being misdirected of that I"m sure . Why?

THIS is not a new ISSUE it is very old and we are being sucked into an endless debate on a nothing law.
It does less than the feds do checking vehicles or haveing checkpoints looking for illegals crossing the border...
think about it

Originally posted by space cadet
Since she was in process of entering college I am compelled to believe she was aware she would have to lie about citizenship, or consider how to become a legal citizen, she could have applied for that at 18, then 5 yrs later become a citizen.

At what point does she stop living a lie, and begin to fix that? After college? During that time she would continue to drive with no legality, when she does get out of college, what now? (and it's a bit of a stretch to think she had to know all the laws regarding her situation simply because she was in college. There are plenty of people with doctorates who don't understand law. )
She still could not legally even produce an identification. How smart is that?

I can't jump into her mind, but I will say that frightened people don't think well. Perhaps she was scared and didn't realize what avenues were open to her. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but it would explain why she didn't move on that.

I would like to hear from any of you who disagree, and please, tell what you think is the answer to fix this, this girl is certainly not the only one doing this, but what is the answer? Do you think it should be ok for the children of illegal aliens to make some kind of application for citizenship when they arrive or are born? There has to be acountabilty. What are your suggestions ?

If a child of an illegal is born on U.S. soil then I see no need for discussion. Kid is a citizen, people should just get over that. As for this girl and others like her., it's difficult to say. I do feel sympathy for them as kids don't ask to be put in the situations they are in. They don't ask to be born. I don't think they should be punished for things they cannot control. I think if the kid has gotten into no trouble s/he should just be made a citizen without having to pay anything. Just fill out some paperwork and call it a day. this shouldn't apply to adults however.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by antonia]

reply to post by awakentired


Well we are being misdirected. We are being prompted to bicker among ourselves (legal citizens and illegal immigrants or legal citizens, pro and con, or along race lines) rather than take notice that our government is being bought up by corporate interests at an astounding and amazing rate.

And the fact is that corporations are lobbying to erode the borders between nations for their own profit motives. (Globalization is wonderful for corporations) Regardless of the fact that it is detrimental to the citizens of the country in question, (which it is) and regardless of the fact that eroding the borders between our nations is essentially suicidal to the idea of nationhood itself.

So yeah, we are being distracted from that little tidbit by being prompted to bicker with each other.

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


Actually that is part of what an immigration judge does. He looks over the case and weighs the circumstances in the case and decides what is the best action.

I know many say illigal is illegal and they are right but also there are mitigating circumstances and whether you believe that they should or should not be taken into account it really isn't your call and it relly isn't black and white for those who do make the call.

There is no difference between that illegal alien breaking the law to get money to get through school, and an American citizen doing the same thing.

She broke the law to get money for school and to live. She used false credentials and information to get what she wanted. She broke the law by driving without a license.

And, if it was an American citizen, they would have to face the consequences!
Believe it!

Pay the piper, and get the hell out!

Originally posted by daskakik
Actually that is part of what an immigration judge does. He looks over the case and weighs the circumstances in the case and decides what is the best action.

Is it written in the law that the judges can choose not to enforce it? Or does it spell out what mitigating circumstances are permitted to change the punishment?

reply to post by Wolf321


Really couldn't answer that. It's over my head. I guess he/she would take into account the fact that she was under age when she was brought over and that she had no real chance to legalize her situation while being a minor. Prior records and also the hardship she could face by being sent to a place where she has no roots or foundation. I do recall a hardship argument for granting a waiver but like I said I'm no expert on the subject.

reply to post by daskakik


I hope the judge sees this as more than a simple criminal, worthy of deportation. I fail to see the point in destroying her life. As long as she has committed no violent crimes, she could provide real value to the country. This does not mean she should not be punished though.

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


I understand that she was given a year to finish up her studies and I would not be surprised if she is made to pay a fine and allowed to apply for legal status even if she is made to leave the country while it goes through.

A brother in-law of mine had to go through something similar but he was in the states under asylum and a peace treaty was signed by the waring parties in my country so he had to leave the US but did meet the requirements to apply for residency and just had to wait for the paper work to go through, a little over a year, until he was allowed to return.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


You know, I understand your empathy for her. But where does it stop?

They gave blanket amnesty in 1986, to try and deal with illegal immigration and it only encouraged more people to break the law.

Another reason I personally have less sympathy for illegals is because I personally feel sorry for all the legal immigrants spending their money doing the paperwork, waiting patiently, jumping through all the hoops. No one is giving them free lawyers, and amnesty.

I dont hate the girl. But somewhere a line needs to be drawn, and when it is drawn it will inevitably be drawn on an individual person whose story we can empathize with. If we make an exception for her, (and with all the press you know we will) it will be some other person who the line falls on.

reply to post by daskakik


If there is written law and an judge chooses not to uphold it, they should be stripped of their position and power.

A society that values the rule of law cannot let illegals stay when they are exposed or captured. This girl (and the persons who let her go on bond) need to go.

reply to post by Wolf321


Like I said I think the law leaves a bit up to the discretion of the judge who makes his decision based on the particulars of each case individually.

So a convicted felon gets a swift kick in the pants while someone who has been in the country and has no real record and can prove that they are playing by the rules as best as they can given their situation may get a second chance.

This has been bothering me for a while.

So our immigration laws can only be "somewhat" enforced at the border, but once you slip in, the immigration laws dont exist anymore?? Thats what it looks like to me, that once you slip in illegally, hey you made it! The laws dont apply to you anymore and you have all the rights of a US citizen. But you dont have to go through all that paperwork the rest of the suckers.. I mean legal immigrants have to go through. Just hop the border and you are in! WTF?

I wonder how many other countries on the planet are as backward in their immigration laws?

I know this is asked every time but, what dont they understand about the word "ILLEGAL"? All those politicians who support the illegals should be fired. They are suppose to represent the LEGAL US CITIZENS who vote them in, NOT illegal aliens that have no right being here and changing our laws and abusing our laws for their personal gains. Every alderman, mayor, senator, governor, congressman should be removed from office when they stop serving their US citizens and start serving foreign nationals that are here against the law. Isn't that aiding an abetting a criminal? If you are here against the law (ie a criminal) and someone is trying to help you, arent they also breaking the law? Ergo should they be arrested?