Brown says he will resign by September

reply to post by destination now


Just my opinion, I try not to look at Britain through the eyes of the right wing news media in this country. I don't believe Britain is broken and if it hadn't been for labour we wouldn't have an NHS.

lets see how much a Tory government does for the working man. They did a lot to help the working man last time they were in power, closing all the mines and leaving working class areas with no source of employment or retraining.

I see your from Scotland, you must be the only Tory up there

Originally posted by destination now
Gordon Brown had better be gone before September! Unelected and clinging on to power. Also something that really annoys me is that everyone blames the Conservatives for the current state of the UK and accuses them of helping the rich and ignoring the poor, but as someone in their 40's I remember the disaster of labour in the 70's (who can forget the save it campaign, the general strikes and unrest when they nearly bankrupt the country and the subsequent (albeit quite harsh) rescue by the Cons in the 80's (yes I did as Norman Tebbit suggested and I got on my bike and went and looked for work elsewhere, successfully!) and by 1997 the UK actually had regained a very strong foothold in the global economy!

By 2010 - Gordon Brown and Tony B(liar) have reduced the UK to rubble - we're almost becoming a third world country who care more about handing out benefits to those who have never contributed anything to society in order to create a "socialist utopia" Who the heck is paying for this - oh that's right me (and all the other taxpayers - don't get me wrong, I value the NHS and a welfare system that looks after those who CANNOT look after themselves, but not those who just can't be bothered!)

So it's no conspiracy, it's just about time that the man who sold the gold to fund an indebted country, heaving at the seams with (non-economic) migrants and a vast indigenous population of "entitled to it all, whilst contributing nothing" stood down and let common sense prevail

And I might add, since 2002, the economy and wealth of the nation has been built on ever increasing house prices and personal debt, so much so that the average working man has no chance of even being able to afford a 2 bed semi and retire debt free - and of course if he does then his pension will also be taxed!

Oh and for the heck of it, I don't care if the Tories bring back fox hunting, it provides much needed rural employment and deals with an ever destructive vermin [/flame

]

What a lot of complete rot.

New Labour are nothing but a continuation of the Conservatives. My God. You talk as if everything was wonderful under the Tories during the 80's. Do you remember the closure of the profitable pits? The destruction of the industrial Midlands for entirely right-wing political motives.

Get on your bike? You think that was a good thing? And where did one get on a bike to when all the industry was destroyed. Even your hero Tebbit has acknowledged that they went too far, that Tory policies as regards British industry was a disaster that destroyed entire communities.

You are totally out of touch with reality.

The good news is, the Lib-dems are about to do a deal with Labour. We are going to have a left-wing govt. that is going to have a referendum on PR.

It must really suck being a Tory supporter atm, being so close, yet so far from winning. To have defeat snatched from the teeth of victory. But after 30 years of suffering under the same old political system dominated by the upper classes, I cannot find it in my heart to be magnanimous to you, the losers.

Enjoy the next few months. I know I will.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by destination now

 

Just my opinion, I try not to look at Britain through the eyes of the right wing news media in this country. I don't believe Britain is broken and if it hadn't been for labour we wouldn't have an NHS.

lets see how much a Tory government does for the working man. They did a lot to help the working man last time they were in power, closing all the mines and leaving working class areas with no source of employment or retraining.

I see your from Scotland, you must be the only Tory up there

Right wing media - what papers/news channels do you watch? Because from my point of view they have done nothing but perpetuate the myth of all tories being "public school toffs" for a very long time.

Yes, the unions and the real labour party (as opposed to nu-labour) did indeed create a national health service to ensure that the working man was treated fairly and had access to the necessary health care - highly commendable, I totally agree! But that's not what they have now morphed into. And as for the mines - well I live in an area of Scotland that was badly affected by that, but the sad truth is that Arthur Scargill was the architect of all of that, yes the leader of the miner's union and his personal hatred for Margaret Thatcher and his determination that he would brow beat the Government into submission, when in fact the nationalised coal industry was a huge loss making concern at that point. It was Arthur Scargill who watched his members and their families starve (quite literally) and the pits fall into irretrievable disrepair by not allowing essential maintenance to be carried out in the mines lest those who did it be ostracised from their communities under the banner of "scabs" Coal being a natural reserve is not infinite anyway, it was always going to run out and ensuring that the business of extracting the reserves was done in the most efficient manner was hugely important and many miners recognised this themselves!

The ship yards and heavy engineering went the same way, unionised to the point of paralysis, e.g. ask people to take 5 mins less of a tea break - national strike - it's no wonder we were not competitive and other big businesses avoided these militant industrialists - at the end of the day, they need to make an profit and with competition from the far east becoming more prevalent in the 80's it was vital that British industry could rise to the challenge - they didn't - they just followed the unions and went on strike!

As for new jobs and retraining, there has been huge investments in ensuring that this happens, silicon glen is a good example. Globally the UK is no different to anywhere else, we need to adapt to change in order to remain successful - and if that means sacrificing one loss making industry then so be it!

And no, I'm not the only Tory in Scotland and I come from a family of Clydeside Shipbuilders who learned that we have to change to survive and thrive!

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by destination now

 

Just my opinion, I try not to look at Britain through the eyes of the right wing news media in this country. I don't believe Britain is broken and if it hadn't been for labour we wouldn't have an NHS.

utter tripe!

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about or are under 20 years old and can't really remember what it was like before Labour!

Labout have created the largest black hole in our finances bringing us to the brink of bankrupcy...

The sold our sovereignty with no referendum - Lisbon treaty

Theyt sold a large proportion of our gold bullion at the lowest point in the market... some of the bullion has been in the country for hundreds of years.

They created a tax credit system that means the lowest paid people can't earn more without having money taken off them, ensuring they can't bring themselves out of poverty.

They created numerous fuel crisis that meant that businesses went out of business because they couldn't afford to run thier fleets.

They raided the pension fund leaving many pensioners to live in poverty

They opened the flood gates of immigration totally uncontrolled, creating a jobs situation where foreign workers can work under minimum wage and nationals loose their jobs.

to name just a few of the terrible things Labour have done to this country.

And now the piestra resistance... Steal the election to remain in power and set electoral reform to ensure the conservatives never get in.

Conservates won fair and square. If ever thier was a need for the Queen to step in.. it's now.

Korg.

reply to post by rizla


You are so wrong in your assumption of me and also of the state of the country, I have never said that the Tories were wonderful and when you read my reply to the previous poster you will see why!


It's called change, and I imagine you are not aware of the ever changing global economy or you would never have posted your rather insulting diatribe!

Originally posted by rizla


The good news is, the Lib-dems are about to do a deal with Labour. We are going to have a left-wing govt. that is going to have a referendum on PR.

As far as I can see, if we had a proportional representation system, we would have even less control over who is supposed to represent us in Parliment.
A constituency could vote for the conservative candidate. That is all well and good. Until you consider what would happen if the Lib-Dems get more votes nationally, but fewer seats than the Tories. In that case, the constitunecy that voted for the Conservative candidate could be assigned a Lib-Dem MP instead so that each party is proportionatly represented in Parliment.
I could be wrong in that understanding, but to me, that seems a lot less fair than the current system, despite the lunacy we are now facing.

Also, when did Labour last deliver on a promised referendum. Lisbon treaty anyone? I think about five people nationwide want the Lisbon treaty, yet still the morons in power denied us the promised referendum.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr

Labour have improved the NHS which is very important to me, They brought in the minimum wage. Most people I know have done pretty well under a Labour government. In the last 13 years the quality of lfe for the majority of British people has been improved by a Labour government.

You can't blame the world financial crisis on Labour and we would be in a worse position if we had followed Conservative policy when the collapse began.

I'm with you.
I think the trend is to completely forget all the good things that Labour have done in this country. Yes, Gordon Brown has to resign, but I'd much rather a Labour/Lib-Dem coalition than a conservative/lib-dem coalition. I don't want the conservatives to ruin the NHS, public transport, and social care like they did last time.

reply to post by DaisyAnne


Sorry, but I have yet to get an answer as to how Labour have improved the NHS, and exactly how did the tories ruin it all before?

reply to post by Emphursis


Yes, that is my understanding of PR as well, and in my opinion it is the furthest point from democracy you could be.

And lets face it, with the exception of the BNP, the Greens and the Monster Raving Loony Party the Lib dems got the lowest amount of votes - they even lost seats that they'd held before, so why should they represent people.

But ironically they now hold more power than both of the main parties!

reply to post by rizla


I thought I understood it that Labour would not be giving a referendum on PR, but rather shoving it down our throats in a majority vote in the commons..

To be honest most of my mates where on the wonderful (not) YTS.. and as far as I am concerned NuLab are no different.. I had hopes LibDem had more morals than they obviously have.

It seems Norman Baker's (My MPs) campaign to get to the bottom of the Dr David Kelly murder and the sparks that allowed NuLab to lie to us about war was a waste of time, and my vote for him and for the LibDems was an utter waste of a vote, if they team up with NuLab and allow PR to be shoved down our throats without a referendum...

And if that happens then I for one will be sure we live in a dictatorship in all but name.

I'm pro tory but i have to say labour have not been anywhere near as bad as people make them out to be. Hell i would have a labour govt over a lib dem government any day of the week.

However i do believe the next government has to be part conservative simply because they have the largest amount of seats. Obviously it will have to be with the lib dems..

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by DaisyAnne

 

Sorry, but I have yet to get an answer as to how Labour have improved the NHS, and exactly how did the tories ruin it all before?

Waiting Lists have improved massively under a Labour Government as has treatment for cancer has improved. I am a living testament to that. You now have a choice of the hospital you wish to be treated at and there are more nurses and GP's. In 1997 the NHS was in trouble it took massive investment from a Labour government to keep it alive

So there's a few things, but if you just read what the Daily Mail says about the NHS, it's little wonder you have this view.

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by DaisyAnne

 

Sorry, but I have yet to get an answer as to how Labour have improved the NHS, and exactly how did the tories ruin it all before?

Easy answer - Thatcher's Internal Market ruined it all. How have Labour improved it? By increasing spending in line with the European average.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Why keep resorting to personal assumptions? If I read the Daily Mail, I would be unlikely to be on ATS!

Are you talking about cancer treatment, which has improved dramatically as a result of mainly research by charitable orgs Mcmillan etc, or cancer testing? (a rather controversial subject in my opinion in fact I have a raft of information that is probably worthy of a whole new thread) But on a personal level I am glad that you have been successfully treated for cancer.

Waiting lists are as manipulated as unemployment figures, and whereas in 1996, I could see the GP of my choice on the same day, I now have to wait for 4 weeks (mainly due to uncontrolled immigration and the strain that puts on the NHS, though I can get to see A doctor, within 3 days just not my preferred doctor that I registered with)

Where I live, they have now moved the Accident and Emergency service to a centralised point as with maternity services, also the out of hours service is now operated centrally across the whole of Ayrshire (which does not have a huge population, but is a geographically large quite rural area) This has caused a number of problems, particularly for the less well off who do not have access to private transport.

I'm sorry but I do not see what the Labour Government has done to my local health service as being beneficial to the community it serves

Originally posted by DaisyAnne

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by DaisyAnne

 

Sorry, but I have yet to get an answer as to how Labour have improved the NHS, and exactly how did the tories ruin it all before?

Easy answer - Thatcher's Internal Market ruined it all. How have Labour improved it? By increasing spending in line with the European average.

Thatcher's Internal Market?? So why has Labour's "increased Spending" resulted in more cases of MRSA, C-Diff etc and more people being generally dissatisfied with the NHS then?

Originally posted by DaisyAnne

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by DaisyAnne

 

Sorry, but I have yet to get an answer as to how Labour have improved the NHS, and exactly how did the tories ruin it all before?

Easy answer - Thatcher's Internal Market ruined it all. How have Labour improved it? By increasing spending in line with the European average.

The only issue I have with Labour improving the NHS is the question why in my area have we gone from 4 A&E's (within 20 miles) to 1... I personally do not see that as an improvement..

In my home town 3 hospitals closed and only 1 (out patient hospital) was opened..

And the services keep getting scaled back... I for one do not see that as an improvement.

I'm not saying the Tories would be any better, but I seriously can not see the justification that Labour have improved the NHS.

Edit to add Doh

[edit on 10/5/10 by thoughtsfull]

reply to post by destination now


Yes, Thatcher's Internal Market. Do you know what this is? If not, I'd be happy to explain it.

Labour's increased spending has significantly slashed waiting lists and improved access to primary care. An independent think tank called The King's Fund did publish a report on it, if you're looking for stats.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Yes, by no means is the NHS in great shape. But by 1997 it was dead on its feet from tory butchering, and it's still trying to recover.

reply to post by DaisyAnne


Problem I have with your assertion is that I have family and friends who have worked in the NHS who have worked in the NHS longer than the period we are discussing and do not share your point of view, and dread where either Labour or Tories will take the NHS in the future.

Edit to add: to be clear, I spent a while (albeit a short contract) working within the NHS and hate to see what is happening and how services are being eroded, and I to dread how the austerity plans will affect our current front line services.. Personally I think it will be dire.

[edit on 10/5/10 by thoughtsfull]

Originally posted by DaisyAnne
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

Yes, by no means is the NHS in great shape. But by 1997 it was dead on its feet from tory butchering, and it's still trying to recover.

The trouble is Labour thought just piling loads of money into the NHS would make it better. That money was at the cost of the tax payer I might add.

However.. to use an analogy... If your car has an oil leak, do you keep buying oil or do you fix the leak???

The same is true of the NHS, The NHS system in this country is something we have got to be proud of, but it needs reform.

the conservative plan for the NHS is to offer funding for private patients. If you need an op you would have a choice, you can go on the NHS waiting list or you can go private but get the treatment part paid for by the NHS.

This would reduce the waiting lists and pave the way for better treatment for those that really need it.

Labour have just created a system that means that it's not possible for people to afford the treatment they need, with NHS patients being told they will not receive the drugs they need etc...

It's Labour that made the NHS strong at processing numbers and weak on curing patients.

Peace Out,

korg.