Hawaii governor announces 'exact' place of Obama birth. No wonder there is confusion!

Originally posted by wfaherty

So I can prove at any time to anyone that I am A USA citizen by birth.
John Mc Cain has a birth certificate signed by a military doctor at Fort Howard in the Panama Canal zone(USA territory at the Time).
So John Mc Cain can prove he is a USA citizen by birth.

I'd be interested in your opinion on this which proposes that McCain WAS NOT born on US Soil as "Colon" Panama was not in the US Zone?
...

McCain’s recently discovered birth certificate states clearly that he was born in Colon, Panama, which is outside of the Panama Canal Zone. Although McCain is a United States Citizen by virtue of his parents being US citizens, he is not a natural born citizen – you have to be born on US soil for that.

At the time of McCain’s birth, the Panama Canal Zone was considered to be US soil. McCain was born outside of the Panama Canal Zone in Colon, Panama where his parents were residing at the time.

The cities of Colon and Panama City were both specifically excluded as being part of the Panama Canal Zone by Article II of the Hay-Bunau-Varilla Treaty of 1903. The full text of Article II is reproduced, below.

Just as Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is not eligible to become President, neither is John McCain.

That’s the law.

The Hay-Bunau-Varilla Treaty 1903 – eliminates Colon as being part of the Panama Canal Zone

johnharding.com...

[edit on 7-5-2010 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

My birth certificate does not name the hospital or doctor either so why should I expect it on anyone else's?

You already stated that your mother could not keep track of yours for whatever reason so you had to get the "other kind". Your argument is also meaningless as the entire thread is about the fact that person in hawaii says there is a hospital on his...

I was not aware a BC could contain college information. Enlighten me..

What does this have to do with a BC? I was merely showing another area of his past that he willingly chose to hide. It had nothing to do with his BC, it had to do with my original post of, "if he has nothing to hide, why is he hiding everything?"

So all the presidents using that same executive order are hiding their place of birth? Please explain to me what you are trying to prove here as it applies to more than just Obama.

Show me what other president had his citizenship questioned during his campaign and you can compare the two, otherwise it is apples and oranges.

Hmmmm, well if the shoe fits...

Good one... Thanks for proving my point.

And it never will be no matter what is produced or uncovered and THAT is why you think "birther" is an insult. You know damn well that you will never accept anything that proves he was born in the US. You will always have "doubts" until proof of his Kenyan birth or he is out of office. That to me sounds like someone who refuses to accept evidence.

I have not seen you debunk the evidence for him being born in Hawaii. If you are so sure it is not real evidence, then explain to all of us what is wrong with it.

I never said birther was an insult. I merely said it was name-calling that people like you resort to when their argument is not strong. I think YOU proved my point on that one also. You do not know me or what I will or wont accept. It seems more likely that you will never accept that your perfect savior, might not be perfect.

Yes, I still have doubts, I still have not seen this evidence you claim shows he was born in Hawaii. Just because you are gullible and willing to believe weak claims, does not make other people who do not a "birther".

I did not ever attempt to debunk anything because I don't care enough about where he was born to bother. I merely joined the thread to point out how people like you jump to conclusions about anyone who doesn't believe as you do and/or worship the ground Obama walks on.

His cert of live birth, that ANYONE can get, is not proof. I was not born in Hawaii but could get the same form printed with my name on it. It actually raises some of the doubts. Why exactly is it that he is willing to release that one and not the one that actually says a hawaii hospital on it? Why did he pick and choose what was ok to show the public and what wasn't?

Like I said, I am not convinced one way or the other. I also think that there are way bigger problems to worry about. I just wanted to add my .02 to the thread about how so many people defend his birthplace with religious zeal, when they have no more proof that anyone else. I would say it is comparable to a christian defending the bible as "the word of god" and "absolute" and taking every word in it as fact.


edit for cleaning up code.


[edit on 7-5-2010 by idontKNOWanything]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

I understand where you are coming from. But in all honestly, I think it would put the VAST majority of those questioning his eligibility to rest. His long-form copy Birth Certificate complete with Doctor's name, signature and hospital location. This would put the issue to rest for many people. It would give lots of people peace of mind. It would make the whole issue die down.

[edit on 7/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

For those of us that have followed the debate for almost two years now...we understand the comedic value of that statement.

Each new public statement, document or validation has not dampened the controversery among the ideologically committed crowd, but rather egged them on.

More Proof and facts = More doubt and rabid, vitriolic responses.

This has been the consistent theme.

I'd rather my POTUS continue to focus on real issues and move us forward than spend time pretending the far right lunatic fringe actually cares about the issue.

Just another flavor of Obama the Anit-Christ...and just as valid a case to make.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by maybereal11]

[edit on 7-5-2010 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by idontKNOWanything



edit for cleaning up code.


[edit on 7-5-2010 by idontKNOWanything]

Try again and get rid of all that bolding.

Originally posted by Alxandro
It's time to put it in perspective.
It's not about beating a dead horse, it's all about a turd that just won't freakin' flush!

I agree with your description of the birther movement.

What keeps it "afloat" if you will is it's resistence to facts, evidence and logic.

And the reason for that resistance, of course, is that facts, evidence and logic is not what they seek.

Disconnect between what they claim they want.."The truth!!"
and what they really want "That man out of office"

You are all making such great generalizations. I do not think obama is the anti-christ. I do not even care if he is removed from office or not. Keep spouting what you hear from your left-wing leaders to try and discredit people. Keep lumping them all into the same category like they all believe the same things. You are not proving anything to anyone by doing so.


KJ... great response to my reply to you... You couldn't think of anything better to say so you attack the fact that I used bold... Good game. For the record, I am not great with code, I originally had your entire post quoted and the bold was how I was distinguishing my text from your. I cleaned up the quotations so it was separated. Didn't know bold was so offensive to you.

As far as what do I want to be called... Does it matter what I say? You will just apply that name to everyone who happens to share 1 idea. I never said I thought he was born in Kenya. You assume that anyone who is not convinced by his shenanigans believes this whole list of stuff you get from left-wing idealists. Keep making your blanket generalizations. Keep thinking you have to label everyone with a name. My points about your lack of a good argument causing you to result to name calling stand.

I have a lunch date or I would search down the obama v mccain debate where mccain called him out, saying all his info was available to be seen by anyone who wanted to see it. Then asked why Obama was hiding his. I will try and track it down for you later if I have time. Of course I could also find one of the cases where he was sued to provide the evidence and each case was shot down.

Originally posted by Libertygal
reply to post by maybereal11

 

And he also signed an affidavit that swore he never used any aliases.

Another lie that will be obfuscated in one of the greatest coverups in history.

The thing is, people always cry, "If this is a cover up, how come no one is talking? Surely not everyone involved would remain silent!"

Of course they are talking, and no one is listening.

No one in Hawaii has the legal right to say *anything* about his "place of birth" unless he gave specific written permission, *or* he allows it to be said and doesn't confront the person speaking. Either way, since it has been publicized, legally they are indebted to show the real certificate, not the COLB, as it is no longer private. It has been stated to the press, not denied by the president and therefore no longer a private matter.

You cannot have it both ways. When a person makes a statement that is supposed to be "factual", they can be sued to prove it. Pretty simple.

I read you post carefully.

There is not a single sentence that is accurate.

Your claim of "Aliases" would imply that anyone named "Richard" should be prosecuted for using the name "Dick"...Sarah/Sally, Mary/Molly, Thoedore/Teddy plus any woman who changed her name when married, any adopted child that took the name of thier parents....ad infinitum.

The claim that no one is listening to those "talking"...my God, on this thread alone anonymous posters on right wing web-sites are touted as credible testimony...that claim shows a serious disconnect with reality.

People in Hawaii have the legal right to say whatever they like about his place of birth. they don't have the legal right to release private documents without that persons written permission.

As it stands President Obama has chosen not to release his "long form"..assuming there is one rahter than just a digital record.

Why?...my personal opinion is because he is a man of principle.

The easy thing to do would be to authorize the release of the long form...

But principles only mean something if you stick by them when they are inconvenient.

At this stage the birther movement has manufactured repeated false documents and letters, offered multiple false articles and claims, smear emails etc, often with strong racial overtones and have made no secret of thier feelings that he should not be in office regardless of evidence.

Responding to those tactics would mean that it was OK for them to use those tactics in the first place and would legimitize a form of political slander and attack that deserves no place in American politics....lies and slander is not OK.

Of course it would be easy to release the long form, but again...principles only mean something if you stick to them when they are inconvenient and he is thinking about the future and feels the onus of being the first man of color to hold the office.

He does not intend to set a precedent that this form of dishonest and hateful opposition is legitimate.

We all know if he had been born with his mothers skin tone rather than his fathers...this "turd" would have flushed long ago.

just my two cents.












[edit on 7-5-2010 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by ProUSA
There's no way to convince "birthers" that President Obama was born in the United States. You could hand them a birth certificate and they would just claim it was fake and it must have been manufactured by the government

Don't all birth certificates fall under the 'manufactured by the government' blanket?
They wouldn't count for much otherwise.

Originally posted by christianpatrick

Speaking of Gerald Rudolph Ford, the only man ever to be appointed president, his birth name was "Leslie Lynch King, Jr." Gerald Rudolff Ford was his stepfather's name. He was never legally adopted by his stepfather but used "Gerald Rudolph Ford" all his life. He changed it legally in 1935, using the american spelling of Rudolph, when he was 22. If we'd have had the internet in 1974, no doubt people would still be saying "HE WASN'T THE PRESIDENT".

Just in interest of the truth, I know that this has no bearing on the OP.

I thought the Gerald Ford thing was different, so I looked.
After googling Gerald Ford adoption, I found that his stepfather did legally adopt him, at least according to this site:adoption.com...

It does have references.

Originally posted by Libertygal
reply to post by christianpatrick

 

You can be native born, which is what he claims to be, naturalized, or natural born. There are 3 types of American citizens.

His statement, in his own words, he calls himself a Native Citizen, born of a father that is a British Patroit.

I think he was born in Hawaii, as well, but his father was not naturalized, and the law clearly states "born of two parents that are citizens".

He is indeed Native Born, which is *not* Natural Born.

There is no definition of Natural Born, except to be born of two US citizens, but by defining it in court cases through the Supreme Court, it has never been defined any other way that what people claim.

The meaning of a phrase is how it is repeatedly defined.

As I said, according to the constitution, there are only two ways to be a citizen, naturalization and birth. Congress can only make naturalization laws, which in the case of children born abroad to US citizen parents naturalizes them at the moment of birth by working of law. Another example. US citizens living in the US adopt a foreign orphan under both US and foreign law. The child is still a foreigner and must jump through all the hoops to get US residency. But as soon as that child is finally admitted to live permanently in the US, it ceases to be a foreigner automatically by working of law. There is no naturalization ceremony. There is no naturalization certificate. The child is simply american. But I don't think anyone here would claim that that child is a natural born citizen.

Please be so good as to show me the statute that says to be natural born both of your parents must be US citizens.

Originally posted by idontKNOWanything
KJ... great response to my reply to you... You couldn't think of anything better to say so you attack the fact that I used bold... Good game.

Actually, it was just hard to read but there is an edit tab that you are aware of. All you got to do is get rid of that bolding and my response would have then been changed to an actual reply. Apparently that is too much trouble for you?

I still dont know why you guys keep beating this dead horse...

Theres nothing you can do about it, you have a kenyan or american president who cares, whats done is done just leave it alone cause the truth will never come up and move on... dont expect an impeachment or something in the likes.

The best you can do is not voting for him... by 2012 or something right?

Stop fighting against it... you look like don quixote fighting the windmills.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
I understand where you are coming from. But in all honestly, I think it would put the VAST majority of those questioning his eligibility to rest.

Well there you go. You just admitted to the fact right there. First of all I don't think your being honest with yourself by claiming it will put to the rest the vast majority. If people refuse to believe state authorities over the matter and if they hold numerous other conspiracies about this president along with this one, the idea showing his long for will 'put the vast majority to rest' is false.

In anycase you just made my point right there. You yourself cannot sit here and say to us that the long form birthcertificate will end the conspiracy. Sure you make the claim it will be the 'vast' majority, but even you cannot help yourself to come to the claim that the conspiracy will end. You know just as well as I and some others here that the long form birth certificate will not end the conspiracy, and that is the point right there. Its a moot.

You cannot expect the president to stop everytime a segment of the population is unsatisfied. Im sorry but if it worked like that we would not have a presidet to fill the position.

reply to post by maybereal11

I'd rather my POTUS continue to focus on real issues and move us forward

And you seriously think he hasn't got the ability to "focus" on more than one thing at a time? How insulting is this?

than spend time pretending the far right lunatic fringe actually cares about the issue.

This makes no sense. Why would he spend time pretending anything?

This has to be one of the most absurd made up sentences intended to be an insult I have ever seen.

Let me tell you, you insulted the president in the first half of this sentence more than anyone has claiming he may not be legal.

So he is so simple minded he can't do his job and consider the people wondering about the BC at the same time? Scary thought for someone to be that simple and to be our president.

Thing is, if he just pulled it out of his mommy's book and laid it on the table for all to see, he could take his simple mind and focus on moving us forward.

Yes, progressiveness. Simple minded. The two, they seem to go together.

For those of you who keep saying that no amount of evidence would satisfy those who question the place of Obama's birth, I respectfully disagree.

Speaking just for myself; If I saw the long form that listed the hospital Obama was born in and the Doctor that delivered him along with the rest of the "official" information that the long form would contain, I would no longer doubt that he was indeed constitutionally qualified to be President.

I still wouldn't like him, but I would simply be because of his ideology and the obvious fact that he is a politician.


[edit on 5/7/2010 by Sparky63]

reply to post by Sparky63


Do you know what a short form is? What it means? What the legality of it is?

I am just curious since so many people dismiss it without even knowing if a state still issues anything else.

reply to post by K J Gunderson
Still?

Wake up there Gundie!
We're talkin' about 1961 here!

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by Dark Ghost


I understand where you are coming from. But in all honestly, I think it would put the VAST majority of those questioning his eligibility to rest. His long-form copy Birth Certificate complete with Doctor's name, signature and hospital location. This would put the issue to rest for many people. It would give lots of people peace of mind. It would make the whole issue die down.

So what you are saying is that anyone who has lost their long form has no way of actually proving they are a citizen? Does that mean people like me in states that do not issue long form copies are totally screwed? My brother had a house fire and lost all of his papers a few years ago. You saying he can never be president because there is no way he can replace his long form even though he actually kept it with him for 40 years? Anyone whos parents lose theirs before they even see it themselves can not be president if they come from states that do not issue long form copies?

Really, you have to accept reality. If you are really interested in the truth you will stop listening to talking points and actually look into what a short form is, what it means, and why it is or is not valid.

States don't issue long forms, hospitals & doctors do... although some counties & many hospitals retain copies on microfiche.. if an original is lost contact the county or hospital... I needed one to get a city job, ordered it from the county, no fuss.. like $20.00:

Colorado has a vital records dept where they can be ordered on-line
www.cdphe.state.co.us...

I used to verify short form certifications, like obamas, of applicants by doing just that... I once found a guy who was a year older than he thought, and another whose uncle was actually his real father.. thanks to data errors and family drama... I thought he was trying to lie about who his father was, but it was just a moms bone in the closet.. literally, with the brother..

Funny thing about birth, nobody remembers it... we rely on family to fill in the blanks, and documents to verify them... not even a rock star like obama knows where or when he was born without being told... which is why his obama-promises of being born in Hawaii carry as much weight as his obama-promises of "change" and transparency... just words from some dude.

Certifications are unreliable at face value.. like a drivers license, it may appear to be a valid state document until a JDIC check reveals it's suspended or revoked.

In this thread.. a Governor had someone specifically check obamas place of birth, verify it once and for all to silence the non believers... then laughably named a hospital that didn't exist... lol.. incompetent boobs couldn't find their own ass using both hands, yet I'm supposed to gorge on their government flavored obama-promise candy without smelling it?.. nah.. I avoid digesting feces just because known liars tell me its chocolate with peanuts.

Yeah, I get it that all this drama is pointless.. but I enjoy the comedy value of the stress it's causing "them".. all I hope for is that he'll be outed and totally humiliated.. so I can chuckle and bask in the warm glow of his public disgrace. I'd enjoy it just as much if it happened to bush, clinton.. or any member of their DC family... watching arrogant liars squirm is great entertainment.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Still?

Wake up there Gundie!
We're talkin' about 1961 here!

We are?

I thought it was 2010?

Originally posted by GovtFlu
States don't issue long forms, hospitals & doctors do... although some counties & many hospitals retain copies on microfiche.. if an original is lost contact the county or hospital... I needed one to get a city job, ordered it from the county, no fuss.. like $20.00:

Well, you are wrong. Hospital issued birth certificates are not legally recognized as ID. What is? STATE ISSUED birth certificates.

Colorado has a vital records dept where they can be ordered on-line
www.cdphe.state.co.us...

I used to verify short form certifications, like obamas, of applicants by doing just that... I once found a guy who was a year older than he thought, and another whose uncle was actually his real father.. thanks to data errors and family drama... I thought he was trying to lie about who his father was, but it was just a moms bone in the closet.. literally, with the brother..

Awesome, how long did you do this in Hawaii?

Funny thing about birth, nobody remembers it... we rely on family to fill in the blanks, and documents to verify them... not even a rock star like obama knows where or when he was born without being told... which is why his obama-promises of being born in Hawaii carry as much weight as his obama-promises of "change" and transparency... just words from some dude.

Certifications are unreliable at face value.. like a drivers license, it may appear to be a valid state document until a JDIC check reveals it's suspended or revoked.

In this thread.. a Governor had someone specifically check obamas place of birth, verify it once and for all to silence the non believers... then laughably named a hospital that didn't exist... lol.. incompetent boobs couldn't find their own ass using both hands, yet I'm supposed to gorge on their government flavored obama-promise candy without smelling it?.. nah.. I avoid digesting feces just because known liars tell me its chocolate with peanuts.

Yeah, I get it that all this drama is pointless.. but I enjoy the comedy value of the stress it's causing "them".. all I hope for is that he'll be outed and totally humiliated.. so I can chuckle and bask in the warm glow of his public disgrace. I'd enjoy it just as much if it happened to bush, clinton.. or any member of their DC family... watching arrogant liars squirm is great entertainment.

That is a whole lot of nothing. You ramble on with annecdotes that seem to try to bury the fact that what you opened up with is just plain false.

Just in a quick glance I see that along with Arizona, New York, and Hawaii Connecticut also does not recognize the BS hospital BC you are saying is so super vital.

U.S. birth certificate or registration of birth (must be original or certified copy, have a seal, and be issued by an authorized United States government agency such as the Bureau of Vital Statistics or State Board of Health. (Hospital issued certificates are not acceptable).

DMV