Michelle Obama: Barack Obama Is “Kenyan”

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
...and since reading more than one reply to it pointing out what a poor point was being made? Apology and retraction accepted.

Actually, I edited it after I read it over myself. It had nothing to do with the subsequent replies. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong and don't need to use the faults I find in others to boost my own ego.

Then how do you feel you have any place to opine on how Americans refer to themselves in relation to their heritage? America is a unique place with unique quirks, as I am sure your place is. If you are not one of us, telling us what we normally do makes little sense.

I have holidayed there several times and have friends there that I keep in contact with. I have been following this citizenship issue for a long time on ATS.

LOL. Did you even read my example? Khannie was not asked where she was from, what she was, or what her heritage was. Her father just referes to her as a "proud Laotian girl."

How exactly does quoting an example from a cartoon relate to a speech made in real life?

LOL. My examples is EXACTLY the same as what you purport is so outragiously different.

Oh, god that one hurt a little.

You might find this strange, but I actually feel compassion for you.

[edit on 6/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

I'm glad to see that "King of the Hill" is the new standard around here. It actually explains a lot.

Anyone know where "Cotton" is? I would love to quote some of his best lines but it might just get me in trouble.

Classic!!

Originally posted by Jenna
Well... She definitely called him a Kenyan there. Not sure it can be taken as absolute proof that he is from Kenya, but she did say he's Kenyan.

Could she have meant he is Kenyan as in his Kenyan decent...

Like if I were to be in the Ukraine and somebody called me a Ukrainian, they would be reffering to my 50 % decent from my grandparents being born there...and not that I was actually born there..


I'm just trying to see both sides , so I can get a better picture of this whole thing.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Actually, I edited it after I read it over myself. It had nothing to do with the subsequent replies.

What a bit of luck, eh? Two people point out how silly your point was and in more than the time it takes them both to read your post, reply to it at different times and move on with the conversation - you just happened to read it over once and realize you should not bother making the point that was so silly.

Nice move, that worked out really well for you.

I have holidayed there several times and have friends there that I keep in contact with. I have been following this citizenship issue for a long time on ATS.

So what? That does nothing to give you any real insight as to how the American mind works. It only gives you a very small sampling of what is a very diverse place. Most Americans do not agree on what is American so being from elsewhere and just knowing a couple folks and having visited means nothing. You gave an opinion on how the average person of Chinese heritage in America should act. How many Chinese/Americans have you asked about this in your visits?

How exactly does quoting an example from a cartoon relate to a speech made in real life?

Because I am pointing out how people talk in America. America is made up of people from SOMEWHERE ELSE. Where else can you find a place where the native population is such a small minority? Americans are all different, come from different places at some point, and deal with THAT differently than people in other countries do.

You might find this strange, but I actually feel compassion for you.

Great! I love when people say something really stupid, I point it out, and they respond by feeling bad for me.

Stop, you're killing me!

I gave you an example. You told me it was different and proceded to use the EXACT SAME CONTEXT -word for WORD - to demonstrate that DIFFERENCE.

Feel sorry for me all you like.

Originally posted by jibeho
I'm glad to see that "King of the Hill" is the new standard around here. It actually explains a lot.

So using an example from American culture to explain American culture is funny? How so?

Anyone know where "Cotton" is? I would love to quote some of his best lines but it might just get me in trouble.

Classic!!

Yep, Cotton dying sucked but I still do not get what your problem is. I am not using X-Men to explain genetics. I am pointing out something that is from American culture as an example of American culture to demonstrate something that is quite normal in American culture.

Can you explain what the problem with that example is?

reply to post by K J Gunderson

If you have "testimony" present it. Where is that?

As stated earlier in this thread - spousal word holds power in the courts. And let us not forget one of the basics in our system of law "Anything you say can be held against you in a court of law." It is word. Until it is denied or disproven, it is considered truth.

You are just so ignorant you won't even give it a chance.

You are wrong. He has already proven he was born in Hawaii so now it is your job to prove he was not. You are claiming his proof is a lie so you need to prove so.

Please - provide this PROOF that you speak of on both accounts. You claim there is undeniable - 100% proof that he was born in Hawaii, fine - show it. And if you choose to post you little birth certificate I would me MORE than happy to go find mine to show you what a REAL birth certificate looks like and just how much more information should be included.

As for me claiming proof, allow me to quote myself-

The "PROOF" as you call it quite simply is not there, and it is your ignorance to blindly believe that it is - that I state that makes me smile.

When I speak, I speak for both sides of the equation. I believe, and until further evidence is provided, I will always believe - that there is a possibility that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii OR Kenya, as there is evidence pointing to both sides. If somewhere actual proof were provided to either side of the argument, I wouldn't even be wasting my time in this topic. I have never taken the side of birthers or those against them - I have taken the side of open mindedness and possibilities - something that clearly you rule out entirely.

You are doing the same trolling that Anon is doing by repeating nonsense you know is BUNK.

Yes, because common ground on ATS is that anything you don't agree with automatically = trolling. Don't worry, I understand the concept well.

You have not proven my BC was a fake.

You have not proven that it was real. You don't understand the concept of logic. I don't HAVE to prove a negative - YOU have to prove the positive. The burden of proof once again lies on you to prove it was real, not me to prove it was false. Considering it lacks many things that normal, common place birth certificates DO HAVE, then I would surmount that the lack of proof is compelling into the favor that it is not real - that is unless you have something to add about the document that the pictures don't already reveal.

you moved on to repeat this lie about what it should or should not say on it.

Yes, because the layout and information provided on birth certificates since their inception is a lie. The document I have that clearly lists more information than Barack Obama's BC is a lie as well as countless other Americans. The same goes for all the other documents that we can provide and he cannot, or has simply chosen not to. All lies, quite simply because they destroy your "evidence" entirely.




You seem to be obsessed with having people prove negatives, but is is a widely accepted logical fallacy that negatives cannot be proven. For example you can't prove that Santa Clause DOESN'T exist. However, if able to provide substantial proof - you might be able to prove that he DOES exist.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Again, I can only feel a sense of compassion for you. But let us not make your desire to stroke your ego and my decision to feel sorry for others get in the way of the thread.

[edit on 6/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Hey, if you believe that referring to and even quoting a satirical cartoon is a reflection true Amercan culture, go for it. I've got some good Simpsons and Family Guy material I would like to use.

Just be careful the next time you try to trash someone's source or reference.

"King of the Hill"... that's a first for me on ATS. I'll toss you a star for that one.

How can one discuss something with a person that denies that racism exists in NYC?

Originally posted by gwydionblack
As stated earlier in this thread - spousal word holds power in the courts.

When was this court proceeding? What are you talking about? Where was any testimony? When was this in court?

And let us not forget one of the basics in our system of law "Anything you say can be held against you in a court of law." It is word. Until it is denied or disproven, it is considered truth.

So...what is in court?

You are just so ignorant you won't even give it a chance.

I must be because I still cannot find this court case you are talking about.

Please - provide this PROOF that you speak of on both accounts. You claim there is undeniable - 100% proof that he was born in Hawaii, fine - show it. And if you choose to post you little birth certificate I would me MORE than happy to go find mine to show you what a REAL birth certificate looks like and just how much more information should be included.

You have a currently obtainable Hawaiian birth certificate or will yours look different just my like my NY state one does? What good is seeing yours? I can go see what a real Hawaiian BC should look like. I have, it matches. Where were you born again?

As for me claiming proof, allow me to quote myself-

The "PROOF" as you call it quite simply is not there, and it is your ignorance to blindly believe that it is - that I state that makes me smile.

When I speak, I speak for both sides of the equation. I believe, and until further evidence is provided, I will always believe - that there is a possibility that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii OR Kenya, as there is evidence pointing to both sides. If somewhere actual proof were provided to either side of the argument, I wouldn't even be wasting my time in this topic. I have never taken the side of birthers or those against them - I have taken the side of open mindedness and possibilities - something that clearly you rule out entirely.

You are lying because you have seen enough around here to know what you are saying has been debunked fully. You just refuse to admit that.

Yes, because common ground on ATS is that anything you don't agree with automatically = trolling. Don't worry, I understand the concept well.

Nice attempt at taking things out of context but...

I accused you of trolling for...

going from thread to thread repeating lies that are fully debunked. Try reading the things you respond to. It helps.

You have not proven that it was real. You don't understand the concept of logic. I don't HAVE to prove a negative - YOU have to prove the positive. The burden of proof once again lies on you to prove it was real, not me to prove it was false. Considering it lacks many things that normal, common place birth certificates DO HAVE, then I would surmount that the lack of proof is compelling into the favor that it is not real - that is unless you have something to add about the document that the pictures don't already reveal.

Simple fact is that when I posted it, the thread SHUT DOWN. No one had one word of dispute. I can prove it is real but NO ONE EVEN ASKED ME TO.

Yes, because the layout and information provided on birth certificates since their inception is a lie. The document I have that clearly lists more information than Barack Obama's BC is a lie as well as countless other Americans. The same goes for all the other documents that we can provide and he cannot, or has simply chosen not to. All lies, quite simply because they destroy your "evidence" entirely.

I will again ask if you were born in Hawaii and have had to get a new copy recently. If not, you are not comparing the same thing. You are also asserting the lie that a short form is not valid when I know you have been shown it is. EVERY STATE IN THE UNION RECOGNIZES SHORT FORM BC from states that issue them. The only people that do not accept them are birthers. I can prove that too but hey, why prove things - you never do.

You seem to be obsessed with having people prove negatives, but is is a widely accepted logical fallacy that negatives cannot be proven. For example you can't prove that Santa Clause DOESN'T exist. However, if able to provide substantial proof - you might be able to prove that he DOES exist.

You are so full of crap I can smell it from here. I asked people to prove he was born in Kenya. Prove the claims they make like - his BC is fake, invalid, etcetera. I asked them to prove their claims about Michelle. I am not asking people to prove negatives, you just want to frame it that way because you have no facts, proof, evidence, or logic behind your agument and that is why you will be repeating this crap in another thread very soon, just like you have been doing.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Again, I can only feel a sense of compassion for you. But let us not make your desire to stroke your ego and my decision to feel sorry for others get in the way of the thread.

So you have nothing to refute what I said and no argument related to the topic so you waste a post with this nonsense for what reason? Oh, you wanted your buddies to give you pointless stars for an off topic post directed solely at me that actually says nothing and responds to nothing. NICE MOVE BIRHTERS!

You guys are too slick for me!

Originally posted by K J Gunderson Where else can you find a place where the native population is such a small minority?

Only just about every country in every continent on the earth, with the exception of the African continent.
That my learned person is where all of our ancestors came from, specifically Kenya, I believe.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by butcherguy]

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Hey, if you believe that referring to and even quoting a satirical cartoon is a reflection true Amercan culture, go for it. I've got some good Simpsons and Family Guy material I would like to use.

LOL, are you serious? Both the Simpsons and Family Guy are nothing but references to American Culture. They would not exist without American Culture.
Yes, I do think it is reflective. Are you trying to tell me that the scenario I discussed is so far out there that it only happens in that show? Is that why you are still going on and on about St. Patrick's day? Oh, right none of you can even touch that.

Just be careful the next time you try to trash someone's source or reference.

Wow, you are so confused. An example of American culture from an example of American culture works for me. You have not made a decent argument against the actual point I made. All you have done is make fun of the source. We all know that is the weakest way to argue but please, go on ignoring the ACTUAL POINT I MADE for 3 or 4 more posts.

"King of the Hill"... that's a first for me on ATS. I'll toss you a star for that one.

Seriously, it is not using WB cartoons to explain Physics. American TV shows about American Families often contain things that happen in American Family life. Can you dispute that or just go on ranting about cartoons?

Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by K J Gunderson Where else can you find a place where the native population is such a small minority?

Only just about every country in every continent on the earth, with the exception of Africa.
That my learned person is where all of our ancestors came from, specifically Kenya, I believe.

LOL. That does not even make sense. If all of our ancestors came from Kenya, then there was no one in the places they moved to so noone was displaced by the incoming minority groups that you actually just said are made up of a majority. I think this thread is getting to be too much for some people.

reply to post by K J Gunderson
Hint here: How small is zero?
That is the percentage of natives in Antarctica.
Please tell me who the natives are in England.
Or France, Australia.

You don't understand the fact that mankind evolved in Africa?
Sorry, maybe too much for you to digest, or maybe you want to set a point in time where emigrating from ones home country counts?

We all come from the same place is the point!

We are all in the majority.




[edit on 6-5-2010 by butcherguy]

Originally postd by K J Gunderson

So you have nothing to refute what I said and no argument related to the topic so you waste a post with this nonsense for what reason? Oh, you wanted your buddies to give you pointless stars for an off topic post directed solely at me that actually says nothing and responds to nothing. NICE MOVE BIRHTERS!

You guys are too slick for me!

You tried to dismiss the question I raised about the issue by quoting dialogue from a cartoon as evidence that I was wrong. You continually attempt to bait other members into arguments and try to discredit their claims by constantly calling them "birthers". Now you are purposely trying to push the notion that all those who disagree with you on this issue are part of a collaborative team?

PS: If you are concerned about flags and stars, why don't you try discussing the topic at hand in a mature and reasonable manner without resorting to name-calling?

reply to post by K J Gunderson
Someone said they feel sorry for you.

I feel sorry for your family, if you have any.
As you stated, one can tell a lot from your posts.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You don't understand the fact that mankind evolved in Africa?

It does not matter whether I "understand" it or not. The point is, if all men came from Africa then they did not displace anyone when spreading out so it does not relate to a place overun with NEW people displacing the OLD people. You do not understand that?

Sorry, maybe too much for you to digest, or maybe you want to set a point in time where emigrating from ones home country counts?

Condescention seems to be a last resort around here. Sorry you do not see why what you said only disproves the point you were trying to make in response to me. That is kind of your fault though and really nothing I can help with. I asked about a place where the Majority of people came from elsewhere overshadowing the now Minority of people that were there and that this new Majority was made up of a DIVERSE group such as ours.

One, if all people came from Africa, they were not displacing anyone as they spread.

Two, if all people came from Africa, then that movement is hardly representative of the DIVERSITY I was speaking of. In case you did not know, Diversity is when people come from all over, not just one place.

Maybe if you think about it for a while this time.

We all come from the same place is the point!

We are all in the majority.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by butcherguy]

Then there is no debate over citizenship or heritage, right? Good job. Case closed.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Hint here: How small is zero?
That is the percentage of natives in Antarctica.
Please tell me who the natives are in England.
Or France, Australia.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
You tried to dismiss the question I raised about the issue by quoting dialogue from a cartoon as evidence that I was wrong.

No, I used it as an example of how Americans talk that even you could witness. I could have related a personal story but I doubt you can find that on Youtube or a torrent site so I used something you could see for yourself to ANSWER YOUR QUESTION.

I also used St. Patrick's day to answer your question but no one wants to even touch that.

You continually attempt to bait other members into arguments and try to discredit their claims by constantly calling them "birthers".

That is just a lie. I an not attempting to bait anyone into anything and since the amount of posts where I use that term is in the minority, it is hardly "constantly." Now you are resorting to just making things up.

Now you are purposely trying to push the notion that all those who disagree with you on this issue are part of a collaborative team?

If that is what you read, I cannot really do anything for you.

PS: If you are concerned about flags and stars, why don't you try discussing the topic at hand in a mature and reasonable manner without resorting to name-calling?

I am not concerned about flags and stars at all. I am not the one repeating emotional pleas and off topic, empty rheroric just to get them.
I never resort to name calling. I use it to accentuate!