It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
I've understood you fine so far...I seriously don't know where you get the idea that you're talking about "advanced", complicated, or out-of-the-box theories I can't comprehend...what you've said so far is certainty far from ground breaking, in fact, it's stuff I've heard a million times, and I've had much better debates than this in the past.
It's not a decent conversation because you don't know what I'm talking about so of course. If you tried to explain quantum physics to me I'd probably look at you the same way you are to me.
Evolution has theories which describe the steps leading up to complex life...but I'm not going to sit here and try to argue that science has all the answers...in fact, science is far from having all the answers...and we know next to nothing about reality...please read this post I made on a science forum. Here's a small extract from it:
What evolution fails to teach is where life originated and the steps leading up to complex life. It doesn't teach that because it doesn't know because it doesn't have, what's that word, oh yea.. proof! Science can't figure out how the universe started and how things evolved, loosely defined.
What do you really know? What does the human race know about reality...what do we really know about anything? As soon as one starts to talk of things not known, or little understood by science, it's instantly made a mockery of...claims of blasphemy and lunacy are made as if we know absolutely all there is to know and we couldn't possibly be wrong about anything...science is quickly becoming the new religion in its tendency to state what's right and what's wrong in relation to things scientists really don't have a clue about...the tendency to consider anything they can't explain in a materialistic fashion or can't physically measure with current scientific tools, just doesn't exist at all in their opinion...and since we're so sure it doesn't exist, we'd rather just laugh about it and ignore serious study into the subject all together.
Originally posted by MrXYZ
Again, I wanna make it 100% clear that I'm NOT bashing religion. I am probably one of the most tolerant dudes around and I truely believe every human has the right to believe whatever he wants, and whatever makes him happy.
AS LONG as it doesn't force others to limit their freedom because they feel the need to turn their speculative beliefs into laws and policies. That's when the fun ends...which is why I HATE (with a passion) Christian fundamentalists entering politics, or why I HATE Muslim extremists using religion to control their followers.
Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81
I've understood you fine so far...I seriously don't know where you get the idea that you're talking about "advanced", complicated, or out-of-the-box theories I can't comprehend...what you've said so far is certainty far from ground breaking, in fact, it's stuff I've heard a million times, and I've had much better debates than this in the past.
It's not a decent conversation because you don't know what I'm talking about so of course. If you tried to explain quantum physics to me I'd probably look at you the same way you are to me.
Evolution has theories which describe the steps leading up to complex life...but I'm not going to sit here and try to argue that science has all the answers...in fact, science is far from having all the answers...and we know next to nothing about reality...please read this post I made on a science forum. Here's a small extract from it:
What evolution fails to teach is where life originated and the steps leading up to complex life. It doesn't teach that because it doesn't know because it doesn't have, what's that word, oh yea.. proof! Science can't figure out how the universe started and how things evolved, loosely defined.
What do you really know? What does the human race know about reality...what do we really know about anything? As soon as one starts to talk of things not known, or little understood by science, it's instantly made a mockery of...claims of blasphemy and lunacy are made as if we know absolutely all there is to know and we couldn't possibly be wrong about anything...science is quickly becoming the new religion in its tendency to state what's right and what's wrong in relation to things scientists really don't have a clue about...the tendency to consider anything they can't explain in a materialistic fashion or can't physically measure with current scientific tools, just doesn't exist at all in their opinion...and since we're so sure it doesn't exist, we'd rather just laugh about it and ignore serious study into the subject all together.
[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]
Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81
And I just want to make it clear that science may not have all the answers...but I believed it is possible for science to uncover most, if not all mysteries of the universe given enough time...absolutely everything can be understood and explained in my opinion...no matter how abstract and complex it may be...
Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by Kaytagg
Good post.
Starred and flagged.
Religion has outlived it's usefulness.
Many people cannot distinguish between being religious and being spiritual, the two are totally separate.
IMO - All the religions were fabricated to control and manipulate humanity.
So much bloodshed, war and murder committed in the name of "god".
We are all drops of water and "god" is the ocean - we are all that interconnected.
Exactly....your dead right...and I don't think science is officially "Atheist"... A lot of scientists are religious...and science isn't trying to tell you God does or doesn't exist...evolution doesn't have to mean a God doesn't exist...and it seems to me organized religions are the main entities going around and pushing beliefs onto people...which in response causes to Atheist to flame up because they think you're teaching lies to every body...which you probably are...but that then doesn't give them the right to claim God doesn't exist...does science officially claim God does not exist? I believe if God does exist, "he" didn't directly design and create us...I believe "he" was the spark of light, the energy, the source if you will, of the big bang and everything in our universe...the rest was left to nature, time and probability...and in this scenario science is sill correct about a lot of things, including evolution...
We should be concentrating on ourselves and the planet and worrying less about where we came from. It's an important question but not one to divide the populace because someone believes something you do not.
Originally posted by ofhumandescent
We are all drops of water and "god" is the ocean - we are all that interconnected.
Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81
Exactly....your dead right...and I don't think science is officially "Atheist"... A lot of scientists are religious...and science isn't trying to tell you God does or doesn't exist...evolution doesn't have to mean a God doesn't exist...and it seems to me organized religions are the main entities going around and pushing beliefs onto people...which in response causes to Atheist to flame up because they think you're teaching lies to every body...which you probably are...but that then doesn't give them the right to claim God doesn't exist...does science officially claim God does not exist? I believe if God does exist, "he" didn't directly design and create us...I believe "he" he was the spark of light, the energy, the source if you will, of the big bang and everything in our universe...the rest was left to nature, time and probability...and in this scenarios science is sill correct about a lot of things, including evolution...
We should be concentrating on ourselves and the planet and worrying less about where we came from. It's an important question but not one to divide the populace because someone believes something you do not.
Haha...that we will...so what's the wager?!? Jokes...
One day we all will know what happens.
Would that really make you a true Christian? Seems to me you're only in it for the reward at the end...the fear of Hell, and the desire for eternal life in bliss...greed and fear will rule...the downfall of man...I don't know if you read this on page 7, but I hope you take this in:
Me personally, I'm just trying to increase me odds and the Bible seems to be the only defined way to go.
And I find it's just as arrogant to say God doesn't exist, as it is to say he does exist IMO...so I just go about my life, being the best person I can...and that's all I can do...if God does exist...I just hope that's enough to get into Heaven...or at least avoid Hell...if that's not enough, I don't think I would like God or Heaven anyway...if such a place and entity really exist...
Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81
Haha...that we will...so what's the wager?!? Jokes...
One day we all will know what happens.
Would that really make you a true Christian? Seems to me you're only in it for the reward at the end...the fear of Hell, and the desire for eternal life in bliss...greed and fear will rule...the downfall of man...I don't know if you read this on page 7, but I hope you take this in:
Me personally, I'm just trying to increase me odds and the Bible seems to be the only defined way to go.
And I find it's just as arrogant to say God doesn't exist, as it is to say he does exist IMO...so I just go about my life, being the best person I can...and that's all I can do...if God does exist...I just hope that's enough to get into Heaven...or at least avoid Hell...if that's not enough, I don't think I would like God or Heaven anyway...if such a place and entity really exist...
Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81
I did edit my last post...but I'll add it to this reply, because it's relevant to what you just said and you may have missed it:
There are people in secluded locations that will never hear of God or the bible...let alone the English language...and you can't tell me God will punish these people because they don't know about Jesus, and haven't accepted him as their savior...and God only knows how many sins they commit daily purely because they don't perceive it as a sin. And don't tell me that's why it's a Christians mission to spread the word...because you will never spread it everywhere...
EDIT: And what about the people you've already missed...unlucky for them...they just have to burn in Hell for eternity because God is infinite in his mercy...
[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]
Romans 10:14 says;
How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
Romans 1:20 says;
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Galatians 3:24 says;
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But you can't possibly think you'll get to everyone, or have everyone believe merely because you go up to them with a book and tell them it's real...I don't see why they should actually believe what you have to tell them...in fact, I'd suggest they didn't believe it...if God is everything and everywhere, why can't he just inform these people him self? He would rather them burn in Hell for eternity because they live in a secluded area...and he would rather them burn in Hell simply because the person chooses to be rational and use logic, and decide there is no proof for any organized religions, whilst they all claim to be right...if I were God I would reward that person for not being a fool...IMO, God would never send any conscious being to eternal suffering...and "he" would NEVER threaten you with such a thing...
You know how sometimes we have to accept the truth even if it's a painful truth? Well I think this is how it sort of relates because there will be unfortunate people who will never have heard it due to location or whatever logical reason. That's why God command's us to spread the word so we can reach those who have never heard His word and save their souls.
I bet you could find HUNDREDS, if not thousands of tribes and townships that live in highly secluded areas that have never heard of God, and never will...you have to think realistically, and if God would really go about things in such a way...what the bible states, makes absolutely NO sense AT ALL...it's utter manipulation at its best...
would you agree the word of God, in general amongst all monotheistic religions, is EVERYWHERE? Not literally, but you can find it any where if you look for it. Sure some people don't have internet or t.v. or radio but that's why we have missionaries.
Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81
But you can't possibly think you'll get to everyone, or have everyone believe merely because you go up to them with a book and tell them it's real...I don't see why they should actually believe what you have to tell them...in fact, I'd suggest they didn't believe it...ff God is everything and everywhere, why can't he just inform these people him self? He would rather them burn in Hell for eternity because they live in a secluded area...and he would rather them burn in Hell simply because the person chooses to be rational and use logic, and decide there is no proof for any organized religions, whilst they all claim to be right...if I were God I would reward that person for not being a fool...IMO, God would never send any conscious being to eternal suffering...and "he" would NEVER threaten you with such a thing...
You know how sometimes we have to accept the truth even if it's a painful truth? Well I think this is how it sort of relates because there will be unfortunate people who will never have heard it due to location or whatever logical reason. That's why God command's us to spread the word so we can reach those who have never heard His word and save their souls.
If given undeniable proof, it will undergo scrutiny and peer-review, and if it's truly undeniable, they'll have no choice but to conclude its legitimacy. Thus far, I've seen nothing that even comes close to being evidence the bible is legitimate of the Christian God, let alone any God, actually exists.
Even if you give undeniable proof people still will not believe.
Yes, I know it's true...but not for religion...because organized religions simply have no proof of their claims except usually a book which matches their claims. You've provide a few sub-standard quotations so far...nothing ground breaking or amazing, and certainly not evidence of anything...until you can provide me with something substantial that can be taken seriously, organized religion has absolutely no backing except faith, faith in what humans tell you is the truth...and as we all know, humans don't know $#!7! Nor would they tell you if they did...
You know that's true, not in just religion, but in a lot of things.
Originally posted by CHA0S
I bet you could find HUNDREDS, if not thousands of tribes and townships that live in highly secluded areas that have never heard of God, and never will...you have to think realistically, and if God would really go about things in such a way...what the bible states, makes absolutely NO sense AT ALL...it's utter manipulation at its best...
[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]
It's clear that with the technology we have that it's easier to preach the Gospel. In some areas we need to physically go to, like the tribes.
Matthew 24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.