Religion is slavery, and god is obsolete.

Religion is only important to society as it gives the sheeple a false sense of belonging, and false hope.

I say false, because the premise is built on a lie. Anything built on a lie that promotes itself as being the truth is inherently hypocritical.

Religion gives comfort to many, but it's a false comfort. The best comfort that people should be receiving is from family and friends, which would (and does) render religion obsolete.

People complain that a 200 year old piece of paper is obsolete (the Constitution) but then blindly follow a 2,000 year old book as being "The Word of God", despite it really being a collection of fairy tales from cultures around the World.

reply to post by novastrike81

I always wondered how He reaches out. Ever go to sleep at night and the random thought of "what if God does exist?" or something about God or Jesus or something just consistently nags you or makes you think. That could be a way. Maybe one of your friends just keeps bugging you to go to try it out and see if it's your cup of tea. Maybe you see a cross in a galaxy looking through a telescope. Who knows, everyone has their reasons. Someday maybe you can tell me what yours was, if that day comes.

I have spent allot of time thinking about these things my first born son died in my arms, (no body could go though what I have without really thinking about these things) + I am a thinker its my nature. I’ve seen life and death and I know I am a one in 7 billion, I am special, and will never, never settle for second best.

I am also a surfer and have grown up in the water I have seen some of the most wondrous, beautiful things in nature anyone could imagine, Its at these moments where I am truly at peace and in connection with nature (god) it didn’t cost anything I never had to give my soul I just experience these things because im alive. We separate ourselves so much from nature (god) we build cities, we dominate animals (I believe the bible says to do so) and then you say we have to give ourselves to god to be accepted into heaven. I am in heaven right now and I will never kneel to anything or anyone so that day won’t ever come, sorry mate.

I have enjoyed our debate, it’s refreshing to speak with someone of different beliefs with-out petty name calling and it’s nice to see someone who can back up their beliefs with a decent convo.

Enjoy your life

One of the principal differences between government and people who support the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and Bill of Rights, is that the govt thinks that it is God, and the Constitution supporters maintain that their rights as citizens, as human beings, are given to them by God not by the government. The difference between the two is the question of who God is. That is why the government is going after the Christians. If they can get rid of God, then they can get rid of our rights. This generation is soaked in fluoride and doesn't stir when danger approaches. The enemy within has taken over our government and our economic resources. People who take oaths to defend the Constitution, take it against enemies foreign and domestic. Domestic does not include flag waving tea party activists as the government would have you believe, but the government itself.

Originally posted by deenuu
I have spent allot of time thinking about these things my first born son died in my arms, (no body could go though what I have without really thinking about these things) + I am a thinker its my nature. I’ve seen life and death and I know I am a one in 7 billion, I am special, and will never, never settle for second best.

I have a 1 month old son too and I couldn't imagine losing him so I feel for your loss. When we believe we all become a Son of God so I'm not sure how you would feel second best unless you think like Lucifer and try to BE GOD Himself. To be elevated to the status should be good enough and rightfully so. We are all sons/daughters of a father why does a supreme Father who created us all make that much difference?

I have enjoyed our debate, it’s refreshing to speak with someone of different beliefs with-out petty name calling and it’s nice to see someone who can back up their beliefs with a decent convo.

Enjoy your life

Yes it is refreshing, hopefully more people won't be so close minded. Live long and prosper!



[edit on 1-5-2010 by novastrike81]

Originally posted by m khan
the Constitution supporters maintain that their rights... are given to them by God.

If they can get rid of God, then they can get rid of our rights.

God isn't mentioned a single time in the constitution. If you don't believe me, see for yourself.


Our rights don't come from god, the are maintained by our system of government and subject to revision by representatives democratically elected by the people; in 2004, those people overwhelming showed up to the polls to revise that constitution to preclude gay people from participating in the institution of marriage.

It didn't happen, luckily, but that goes to show you that the biggest threat to our freedom and liberties is a bigoted and uneducated public -- not a secret cabal within the government trying to enslave us all. We'll enslave ourselves, if anybody is going to do it.

I would have to agree that religion in it's many forms has been exploited through the centuries for the gain of certain groups or individuals.

As a Christian however; I have what some would call a biblical world view.
I am not perfect, as a matter of fact I am very far from it. Does Christian mean perfect? no, it means Christ like,Christ follower,a way of life. It is The Way. Jesus was against the established religion of His time. You see Jesus didn't establish a religion but a way of life that can only be found in Him and through Him. Yes there are a lot of people practicing religion but not actively following in the true teaching of the one they call themselves after. It is a daily walk and a process of sanctification.

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Mathew 5:8



1a1) purified by fire
1a2) in a similitude, like a vine cleansed by pruning and so
fitted to bear fruit

God Bless

Originally posted by Kaytagg

Originally posted by m khan
the Constitution supporters maintain that their rights... are given to them by God.

If they can get rid of God, then they can get rid of our rights.

God isn't mentioned a single time in the constitution. If you don't believe me, see for yourself.


Our rights don't come from god, the are maintained by our system of government and subject to revision by representatives democratically elected by the people; in 2004, those people overwhelming showed up to the polls to revise that constitution to preclude gay people from participating in the institution of marriage.

It didn't happen, luckily, but that goes to show you that the biggest threat to our freedom and liberties is a bigoted and uneducated public -- not a secret cabal within the government trying to enslave us all. We'll enslave ourselves, if anybody is going to do it.

This is in the Declaration of Independence -

There are three sections which reference God, as already noted, but the citations were incomplete. God is actually named by some title or other FOUR times (see #3 below).

Also, it might interest you to know WHO put those references in, since not all were in Jefferson's original draft.

1.) (Opening paragraph) ". . . the equal and independent station to which the laws of nature and of NATURE'S GOD entitle them" = THIS was in Jefferson's original draft

2.) (Second paragraph) Original reads: "We hold these truths to be [sacred and undeniable] self-evident, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and inalienable"

CONGRESS added "endowed by their CREATOR" - so strengthening the RELIGIOUS reference

3) (Conclusion)
Original - "We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled . . . And for the support of this declaration we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."

Congress here added explicit religious references at the beginning and end:

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, APPEALING TO THE SUPREME JUDGE OF THE WORLD for the rectitude of our intentions . . . And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the PROTECTION OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

(Previous answers overlooked the "Supreme Judge of the World")

[edit on 1-5-2010 by novastrike81]

[edit on 1-5-2010 by novastrike81]

reply to post by Kaytagg


God is obsolete?
Because you said so?

AHHHH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

peace

reply to post by Kaytagg


I think that you misconstrue religious doctrine a lot. I believe you have a major dispassion for the Christian religion, but not "all" religion as you say. Excluding the obvious thing that "religion" is a modern word and things like Christianity, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism and the like pre-existed the term "religion", I'll take a stab at your questions.

1. Religion exposing humanities flaws

I think you need to look at the diversification of humanity before you make such a broad generalization. Some people don't agree with religious dogmatism. This is perfectly fine. However, these people would discard that which makes a believer a believer.

For some people it's not about "belonging" or "fitting in with the majority". For some religious people it's about ideals, values and edicts which they stand for, causes of which they believe.

Not every Christian is a Christian just because they're scared of pissing God off. Some people believe in the transubstantiation, that one man's blood and body can heal and save another.

Not every Buddhist is a whining emo who doesn't want to fit in so s/he rebels again social norms and casts off things like sex, and sensuality. I don't practice moderation because I want to rebel. I believe, and am finding, that my life is different, more complete, when I try to follow in the footsteps of the Buddha.

You need to be able to make the distinction between a religious zealot who only does it because they're afraid not to, and those honest people who really find meaning, and experience in religious traditions and rites.



2. Religion as an animal

I think religion would be a mythological Phoenix. It comes to us as a beautiful example of the complexities and intricacies of life. However, in the wrong hands it can become a fearsome predator. Luckily, if we're brave enough to venture forth, we can slay the monstrosity and let a new, beautiful Phoenix rise from the ashes of the now-deceased monster.



3. Religion as a source of achievement and sorrow

This is very true. Like all true things you need to consider the dual nature. Just because something has caused harm, does not mean you should overlook it's beneficial factors.

For instance, the spiritual movement (born of Buddhism and Hinduism) has taught us meditation and yoga, too practices that increase health, and prolong life. At the same time though, Buddhism has also given us the radical regime of the Lamas, who seek to reinstate the theocracy in Tibet. Good and the bad.

Islam is another great example. While Europe was sucking disease out through leeches and deciding that cauterizing wounds with tar was the only way to stop the spread of infection - the Arabs and the Islamic people were reading Greek books, preserving medicinal histories, advancing mathematics and more. However, they've also given rise to radical factions like Al Qaeda. Good with the bad. The eradication/non-existence of Islam means we would still be using leeches and tar, because the Enlightenment would have never happened. Good with the bad.

Religion is inherently evil, and kind. You cannot have it any other way. As an institution, there will be those who abuse it's existence, and those who utilize it's existence to further mankind. You have to take both.



4. If God is dead...

God is an amalgamation of human thoughts. There was no sentient "first source" from which all existence sprang. So God is not even there, trying to prove His own existence. God is simply as non-existent now, as He has always been. So "God" never becomes obsolete in the face of knowledge, because God was never there when there was a lack of knowledge.

It is only those who fear the future, and see their own place in the universe ever-shrinking who try to create this figment of a God. No God, no special place in the universe, this scares people. Religion is something different though, God and religion are not mutual. You can have a religion without a God and just believe in the energetic nature of the Universe (spiritualists, Buddhists, theosophists and more are like this).

I agree though, that gods have their place, that place is inspiration. Not authoritarian rule.



5. What happens next?

Again, I believe that those who believe in God, and those who practice religion are different people, though they sometimes intersect. All God-worshipers are religious, but not all religious people worship God. Those with faith in something still continue to advance their fields and help support / hinder our race. Your generalizations make it very hard to really determine whether or not religious people deserve to exist in a society.

I think it's an issue of individuality, not conformance. I am a religious guy (obviously), but I'm not out there seeking to dismantle science and put "God back in the classroom". I'm actually deeply interested in quantum science, and neurology and astronomy and all manner of earth sciences. I respect the mathematical universe and the like - while also finding beauty and meaning in religious observances and traditions.

Both can co-exist, side-by-side, or within a single person.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

4. If God is dead...

God is an amalgamation of human thoughts. There was no sentient "first source" from which all existence sprang. So God is not even there, trying to prove His own existence. God is simply as non-existent now, as He has always been. So "God" never becomes obsolete in the face of knowledge, because God was never there when there was a lack of knowledge......

I agree with everything you said, perfectly, except this point and the rest because it didn't fit with the quote when I clicked it.

It may be an amalgamation of human thought but then again you have to wonder where all the things in the universe came from. Things just don't spring out of nowhere. You can't create matter or destroy it but convert it to energy and back and forth. The known laws of the universe simply cannot be applied to the point when the universe leapt into existence from nothing.

Some scientists draw incorrect conclusions from these facts, assuming that, since science can't discover what took place before the universe was formed, nothing could have happened before it was formed. This tells us nothing about God's existence or nonexistence, but it does say a lot about the limitations of the traditional scientific approach. We must seek a source other than science to understand who or what existed before the origin of the universe. And only one source offers a truly believable and rational explanation—the Bible.

So saying it's a figment of our imagination is a far cry to say the least. Something had to have created everything we see today. It just doesn't happen on it's own. Saying it happened on it's own is just a way of saying God doesn't exist. Nothing happens without a cause. The beginning of the universe is an event that had a specific cause.

I'm sorry ahead of time if i opened the unwanted can of worms. Don't derail this thread into that, please.*crosses fingers*


[edit on 2-5-2010 by novastrike81]

It's curious how atheists get violent when they are pushing their religion. (Yes atheism is a religion. It is the belief that nothing created everything.) Yet they accuse the religious, especially christians, of being violent and pushy with regards to their own.

Really check out the track record of atheism:
Stalin: 70 million slaughtered
Mao: 100 million
Pol Pot: 3 million

I could go on and talk about N. Korea, the French Revolution and the reign of terror etc. etc. but I won't.

I will just point out that the reality of the Biblical truth is staring at you right in the face every day. That would be the existence of the jews and Israel.

By all rights (and by most peoples fondest wish), Israel and the Jews should have been wiped out long ago. But the Bible said the nation would be reborn, and thousands of years later it was.

Perhaps it is this very reason that the devil orchestrates universal hate towards Israel.

reply to post by Kaytagg


I agree with every word you said. I made a thread similar to this recently, which didn't get much response, not meaning to hi-jack the thread at all, but I feel I should quote a small part of it and pose this question to the religious members of ATS:

Why should I trust what humans tell me about God?

Humans have given me every reason in the world not to trust them...especially organized humans with an agenda, and worste yet, and organization claiming it has the best product, better than the rest, guaranteed success, or your money back! We know the secret to *insert something here*. We have the truth and you will have the answer...you can only find it here and all others are scams! SUBSCRIBE NOW!

Sound familiar at all? I have found, that the only person I truly can completely rely on, is myself, and only myself, and if I do rely on others, I must be prepared for them to let me down or deceive me, because it will most likely happen. It's a rare thing to find a sincere and genuine person these days...thus, I must conclude, 99% of organized religions are, IMO, the biggest scams in human history...and are actually taking us farther, instead of closer, to the truth.

reply to post by SevenThunders

It's curious how atheists get violent when they are pushing their religion. (Yes atheism is a religion. It is the belief that nothing created everything.) Yet they accuse the religious, especially christians, of being violent and pushy with regards to their own.

You're quite right, I agree. I've posted this numerous times, but I'll share it again:

And I find it's just as arrogant to say God doesn't exist, as it is to say he does exist IMO...so I just go about my life, being the best person I can...and that's all I can do...if God does exist...I just hope that's enough to get into Heaven...or at least avoid Hell...if that's not enough, I don't think I would like God or Heaven anyway...if such a place and entity really exist...

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

I respect the mathematical universe and the like - while also finding beauty and meaning in religious observances and traditions.

What meaning do you find in religion, specifically? Why do you need religion to have that meaning -- or are you simply accrediting religion as your source, rather than as a necessity for the meaning to exist in the first place.




[Btw, I did read your whole post, in case you're wondering. I just found this to be the most interesting point.]

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

I agree with every word you said. I made a thread similar to this recently, which didn't get much response, not meaning to hi-jack the thread at all, but I feel I should quote a small part of it and pose this question to the religious members of ATS:

Why should I trust what humans tell me about God?

Humans have given me every reason in the world not to trust them...especially organized humans with an agenda, and worste yet, and organization claiming it has the best product, better than the rest, guaranteed success, or your money back! We know the secret to *insert something here*. We have the truth and you will have the answer...you can only find it here and all others are scams! SUBSCRIBE NOW!

Sound familiar at all? I have found, that the only person I truly can completely rely on, is myself, and only myself, and if I do rely on others, I must be prepared for them to let me down or deceive me, because it will most likely happen. It's a rare thing to find a sincere and genuine person these days...thus, I must conclude, 99% of organized religions are, IMO, the biggest scams in human history...and are actually taking us farther, instead of closer, to the truth.

That might be easy to explain. We don't want you to believe what us humans say but we want you to trust what God has to say. We all know humans are liars by choice so I agree with you. I have a hard time believe people as it is but I trust in God and his word and that's ultimately the goal you should be looking for. That and I only trust myself on things not related to the Bible; like work, extra-curricular activities; etc. At least I know I won't deceive myself. I hope that answers your question, if not I'm sure someone can explain it better.

reply to post by novastrike81


I've already answered to a similar post:

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by Blanca Rose

 

It's called faith.

Yes, but it's not faith in God, it's faith in HUMANS. If you follow the teachings of an organized religion and shape your life around those teachings, everything you do, your entire life, is structured around things which HUMANS have taught you. If you want to believe a God exists, and you be the best person you can...fine...absolutely fine...as long as you don't push your beliefs on others, and blindly follow a whole bunch of crap which has obviously been thought up by ancient men, with absolutely no proof, except the word of HUMANS.

EDIT: And I'll add one final quote to conclude my standpoint:

I particularly see organized religion as one thing devious people would abuse in order to control the masses in a way unimaginable....and I mean...they can't all be right...and they are obviously all wrong...the only thing they might be right about is the existence of God...and as I've said, they may contain some good life lessons, but they know nothing of God, if God exists...and IMO, religion only stagnates ones ability to question the things around them and advance their understanding of reality and get closer to the truth...it holds humanity back and causes us to mold our society around out-right lies and deceit...it simply causes more problems than it solves...

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

I agree with every word you said...

Thanks, and kudos on the avatar. I wish my bicycling t-rex was half as cool as that.

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81

 

I've already answered to a similar post:

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by Blanca Rose

 

It's called faith.

Yes, but it's not faith in God, it's faith in HUMANS. If you follow the teachings of an organized religion and shape your life around those teachings, everything you do, your entire life, is structured around things which HUMANS have taught you. If you want to believe a God exists, and you be the best person you can...fine...absolutely fine...as long as you don't push your beliefs on others, and blindly follow a whole bunch of crap which has obviously been thought up by ancient men, with absolutely no proof, except the word of HUMANS.

The Bible tells us that The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible and gave it by inspiration to Godly men. Your doubts show who you listen to most; the devil. Doubt does not come from God but the devil brings it to discredit God. I'm not forcing my belief on you, either. You can say He doesn't exist and that doesn't make you right.

You can't see the wind but it blows, does it not exist because you can't see it? You feel it when the wind blows; coincidently those who believe in God feel His presence within them. Obviously, if you don't believe you won't understand this feeling until you experience it yourself. It's like sex, once you have it you know what it feels like!

[edit on 2-5-2010 by novastrike81]

reply to post by novastrike81

The Bible tells us that The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible and gave it by inspiration to Godly men.

The bible tells us huh? So basically...humans tell you the bible was written by "The Holy Spirit"...ooo, and look...the bible confirms that...how odd...you've almost won me over...

reply to post by Kaytagg


Hahaha......never mind, I think it's awesome..I mean, come on...it's a freaking dinosaur riding a bike...

EDIT: With a cape!

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81

 

The Bible tells us that The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible and gave it by inspiration to Godly men.

The bibles tells us huh? So basically...humans tell you the bible was written by "The Holy Spirit"...ooo, and look...the bible confirms that...how odd...you've almost won me over...

I'm not going to argue. I'm not saying you have to believe if you don't want to. Don't sit there and say "oh the bible was written by humans so its fake hurp da durp da durp" cause you aren't really doing anything relevant. You're just like every other stereotypical non-believer who tries to impose their non-belief on others to drag them down. You said it's fake or not real or whatever term you want to use. Fine, the best selling book of all time with the highest denomination of believers, is a fake. Now prove it. Saying, "oh it's written by humans," isn't evidence but an opinion based on a presupposition with no factual basis to back it up.

Also, saying "oh every continent has a creation story or a flood legend" is not proof of a fake book. Maybe it didn't occur to you that stories all share a common root of existence from the original. Regardless saying it's fake has no emphasis on one's belief and ultimately results in your opinion over another.

You can even say "it contradicts itself" too, go ahead it won't be the first time I've heard it. If you are going to say then I'd like to see what verses you are talking about that contradict one another. If you can do that, and it'a big if, then you'll win the Nobel Prize and every other prestigious award for debunking the Bible. It hasn't been done yet so your chances are quite low.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by novastrike81]

reply to post by novastrike81

Saying, "oh it's written by humans," isn't evidence but an opinion based on a presupposition with no factual basis to back it up.

Saying, "oh, it's written by The Holy Spirit, look, it even says so" isn't evidence but an opinion based on a presupposition with no factual basis to back it up.

The best selling book ever is it? So let me get this straight...millions of people mold their lives around a book with no factual basis to back it up?

EDIT: The mere fact that so many people are so easily drawn into the grasp of organized religion (with no factual basis) tells me that I'd be a moron for trusting humans and what they tell me about God.

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]