Religion is slavery, and god is obsolete.

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81

 

Even if you give undeniable proof people still will not believe.

If given undeniable proof, it will undergo scrutiny and peer-review, and if it's truly undeniable, they'll have no choice but to conclude its legitimacy. Thus far, I've seen nothing that even comes close to being evidence the bible is legitimate of the Christian God, let alone any God, actually exists.

You know that's true, not in just religion, but in a lot of things.

Yes, I know it's true...but not for religion...because organized religions simply have no proof of their claims except usually a book which matches their claims. You've provide a few sub-standard quotations so far...nothing ground breaking or amazing, and certainly not evidence of anything...until you can provide me with something substantial that can be taken seriously, organized religion has absolutely no backing except faith, faith in what humans tell you is the truth...and as we all know, humans don't know $#!7! Nor would they tell you if they did...

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]

Ah, it's called FAITH. You are asking for undeniable proof that He exists which is we don't need to prove He exist because everything around us is testiment to His existence plus the Bible. You are looking for scientific proof for a supernatural cause. We can't do it you have to believe it yourself. I'm sure scientists have tried to prove it scientifically and conclude it can't be done unless you examine things around you. I know you understand this but you act like I can pull a miracle out of my ass. You can flag hoax and everything it's not going to change the millions, if not billions, of Christian's minds in what they believe. Unless I missed the point...

[edit on 2-5-2010 by novastrike81]

reply to post by novastrike81

It's up to us to get to as many as we can before the time comes.

Ummm...I suppose I should wish you good luck... You wont be "getting me" before "the time comes"...I don't fear God...and I don't believe for one second he would so casually punish people for not accepting Jesus as their savior with absolutely no proof...and no matter what you say, you can't spread the word to everyone...if you believe God will punish those people who believe with no evidence or live in secluded areas...you truly are delusional and brainwashed to the highest degree...I suspect a little too much old testament maybe...the Christian perspective of God is so materialistic and arrogant I feel like vomiting...

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81

 

It's up to us to get to as many as we can before the time comes.

Ummm...I suppose I should wish you good luck...

You wont be "getting me" before "the time comes"...I don't fear God...and I don't believe for one second he would so casually punish people for not accepting Jesus as their savior with absolutely no proof...and no matter what you say, you can't spread the word to everyone...if you believe God will punish those people who believe with no evidence or live in secluded areas...you truly are delusional and brainwashed to the highest degree...I suspect a little too much old testament maybe...the Christian perspective of God is so materialistic and arrogant I feel like vomiting...

It's okay I was you one time and I drilled my wife relentlessly on this stuff. Basically with the same questions you are asking. I felt no just cause for punishing those who didn't believe because of lack of technology or missionaries. You can't accuse me of being brainwashed and delusional. What if I'm right and you're wrong? Would that make you brainwashed and delusional then? Sorry for the circular reasoning but it's lame to attack my views and intelligence because you don't believe what I believe. I'm sure this is how it all started; with petty low blows of word wars that turn to violence. It's not necessary to be honest.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by novastrike81]

reply to post by novastrike81

He exist because everything around us is testiment to His existence plus the Bible.

But everything around us is only a testament to his existence because you think it is, and you say it...why though, is it a testament to his existence...do you care to elaborate at all...the things around me right now don't seem to suggest in any way that God exist...what exactly about "everything around us" testifies his existence? You say he created everything...so...ummm...good...go on...everything is a testament to his insistence you say because he created it...ok, continue...what's that...oh, yes...that's what I thought...you're just spouting words that mean nothing...

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81

 

He exist because everything around us is testiment to His existence plus the Bible.

But everything around us is only a testament to his existence because you think it is, and you say it...why though, is it a testament to his existence...do you care to elaborate at all...the things around me right now don't seem to suggest in any way that God exist...what exactly about "everything around us" testifies his existence? You say he created everything...so...ummm...good...go on...everything is a testament to his insistence you say because he created it...ok, continue...what's that...oh, yes...that's what I thought...you're just spouting words that mean nothing...

You can't ask a question then answer it assuming you know what I mean. What's with the hostility? You're going to start something that's not necessary. You're acting like a child. I'm brainwashed and delusional and ignorant because I believe in something Higher than you. You are quite selfish so please either discuss things reasonably or shut the # up and stop replying.

reply to post by novastrike81

You can't ask a question then answer it assuming you know what I mean. What's with the hostility? You're going to start something that's not necessary. You're acting like a child. I'm brainwashed and delusional and ignorant because I believe in something Higher than you. You are quite selfish so please either discuss things reasonably or shut the # up and stop replying

I wasn't actually trying to come off as hostile...but you certainly replied in quite a hostile manner...anyhow, you dodged the question quite nicely, maybe I was correct after all...and I didn't state you were brainwashed and delusional for believing in a higher being...not at any point in time have I stated that, and I've even said it's fine to believe a God exists...I said you're delusional if you follow organized religion and actually believe it holds the truth...worste yet is if you think the religion knows the will of God...*MANIPULATION ALERT*

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81

 

You can't ask a question then answer it assuming you know what I mean. What's with the hostility? You're going to start something that's not necessary. You're acting like a child. I'm brainwashed and delusional and ignorant because I believe in something Higher than you. You are quite selfish so please either discuss things reasonably or shut the # up and stop replying

I wasn't actually trying to come off as hostile...but you certainly replied in quite a hostile manner...anyhow, you dodged the question quite nicely, maybe I was correct after all...and I didn't state you were brainwashed and delusional for believing in a higher being...not at any point in time have I stated that, and I've even said it's fine to believe a God exists...I said you're delusional if you follow organized religion and actually believe it holds the truth...worste yet is if you think the religion knows the will of God...*MANIPULATION ALERT*

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]

I didn't answer your question because it was a loaded question. No matter what I say you already have an answer made up. There isn't a point in answering your question. So I'm supposed to join a chaotic religion with no structure? Does that make any sense? I apologize for acting on emotion and getting somewhat hostile. I felt threatened, I guess, for lack of a better word.

Jesus said that many would fail to keep the Word of God for keeping the traditions of man (religion). That may sound contradictory because I claim Christianity but I do what I can to follow the Word of God. Jesus said I desire mercy not sacrifice (love and relationship, not religion). Again, I do my best to follow the Bible, not to a strict literal sense, but the way it was taught by Jesus. I'm sure you'll have your doubts and statements but it's my belief and mine alone. No one can take it from me except me. You can't judge everyone based on a few peoples actions.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by novastrike81]

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by novastrike81

 

He exist because everything around us is testiment to His existence plus the Bible.

But everything around us is only a testament to his existence because you think it is, and you say it...why though, is it a testament to his existence...do you care to elaborate at all...the things around me right now don't seem to suggest in any way that God exist...what exactly about "everything around us" testifies his existence? You say he created everything...so...ummm...good...go on...everything is a testament to his insistence you say because he created it...ok, continue...what's that...oh, yes...that's what I thought...you're just spouting words that mean nothing...

Well everything should have been a testament to him (YHWH) But its clear to me that we've all been corrupted from the beginning. Why ? All the technology around us should have been used to benefit the whole of humanity not just us in the western world where life can be comfortable. But the world we are in now is the exact reason why we need YHWH and Jesus. Don't you think if we followed the NEW TESTAMENT the world would be evil ? Lets be honest how can we live like this ? Where people are starving to death in the worst conditions. When its easy to see there's enough of everything for everyone. Living life by the NEW TESTAMENT would make this earth so much better. And if you disagree i urge you to read it and then tell me how you feel. Look at it like this: we've got a toilet system thats efficent where somebody else doesn't even have a toilet! Why can't the world powers be fair and give these 'poorer' (well they have all the things we want but can't utilise them like vegetables, gold and silver) the same things as 'us' ? Because they want destruction, murder and war and all of us sit here and do nothing.......

reply to post by novastrike81

So I'm supposed to join a chaotic religion with no structure? Does that make any sense?

I didn't say you need to join another religion...why must there always be a religion involved anyway? I try to seek my own inner truth and find God on my own time...pathetic and manipulative humans will never draw me into their blind faiths...I have all the answers inside myself, and they will come to me in due time...I don't fear God, and I don't lust for infinite life in bliss...I try to be a good person, and hate corruption and manipulation with a PASSION...I want nothing but the cold hard truth, and I want to make sure that truth is known to the people...

All are one, God is us, and we are God.

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by deenuu


Well, we can certainly tolerate each other and niether do I judge you.
Where did God come from? And if you establish that, then where did that come from, and on it goes. To know that God IS, is the essence of faith. Without faith that God "is" and as He called Himself "the great I AM" then there is no room for discussion. I can not prove to you that He exist no more that you can prove to me that He doesn't. God is not about, not can He be understood with logic. He is outside of logic and if God could be understood then He would be a lesser being. The creation understanding the creator? If you create breakfast this morning will your eggs and bacon understand you? Of course not, that is just foolishness. Again, it's sad that you can look at all that you can see and not attribute it to a creator.
Seeashrink

reply to post by seeashrink

Again, it's sad that you can look at all that you can see and not attribute it to a creator.

I don't agree.

Originally posted by CHA0S
Let me ask a question:

Just because one can intelligently design and build something, does that mean it's absolutely impossible for the things one is able to design, to randomly appear if one waits long enough?

Given enough time, anything is possible. Because this universe, and the things that exist within it, appear highly complex and detailed, our simplistic human minds often jump to the conclusion that some sort of higher being must have designed it all...

---

Of course you will see structure and order in everything...from chaos comes order and from order comes chaos...but order and structure isn't always indicative of intelligence...even the quantum level, and smaller, will show structure and order, because even though they seem like fundamental levels from our perspective, they really aren't, we still have an array of levels to go through before we reach pure and fundamental energy...this is the level where you will lose order and structure...but even so, you will still see order and structure...there is order and structure in EVERYTHING, but this doesn't mean an intelligence is responsible for it...

[edit on 2/5/10 by CHA0S]

Atheist fundamentalists tend to attack "religion," as if all religion were just like whatever few specific religions surrounded them where they grew up. And of course, atheism itself, the profession of metaphysical and spiritual knowledge, unattainable by natural means but asserted to be known fact, ought not to be confused with religion. God forbid.

For example, the OP thinks that religions must have gods. Yet, two widely followed categories of religion, shamanism and ancestor worship, have no gods, and Buddhism fades gods into such insignificance as to moot the ontological question (whether any gods exist is unimportant in Buddhist doctrine, since if they existed, then they would lack abiding selves and would partake of suffering, both things being inherent in all sentient existence).

And of course the silliness compounds: in the OP's revelation, the gods that "religion" proposes must be creators. Never mind that Indo-European gods (you know, Greek, Roman, Norse... those guys) are not creators. They are the winners of a power struggle with their predecessors, played out in a universe that was already there, and that will still be there when these gods pass away.

I suppose one of the main reasons why atheists behave that way is to deny that they themselves practice a religion. By the usual rules of magical thought, they feel that if only the adept could take charge of the word (religion) in the desired way (that from now on, any religion must have at least one "creator god"), then the Universe will rearrange itself to suit. For example, Buddhists will cease describing Buddhism as their religion. The ancient texts will transmute, and Odin will have created his world and ours after all.

Alakazaam is not much of an argument, though. Here on planet Earth, religion is ubiquitous because it solves one of the severe problems of human existence: how to present contents of the unconscious to the conscious ego, without overwhelming consciousness.

Fantasy stories of a sculptor shaping the universe will serve as nicely as fantasies about the clay shaping itself. Which fantasy comes true, if either, is unimportant for the psychological effect. The religious impulse is to project unconscious contents onto whatever the surround dishes out. The story isn't about the origin of the Earth; the story is about the emergence of consciousness and personhood.

Knowing that, what kind of person has a religion? A human being. What is left when there is no role for a creator god? All the other gods, all the religions that don't have gods, and all the religions that appreciate a creator story for the figurative expression that it is.

One feature of revealed religion (a category of religion, not the whole of religion) is the doctrine that history divides into before and after some event. Buddhism's deciding moment is as obvious as Christianity's or Islam's. Atheist fundies think the divide comes with the emergence of secular science. But of course atheism isn't a religion, so this resemblance is just a coincidence.

Another feature of revealed religion is the doctrine that there will be a decisive future moment of salvation: all sentient beings will be freed from samsara, or the odd bedfellows, Christianity and Islam, sharing their return of Jesus in glory. For atheists, it is the withering away of other religions. But of course atheism isn't a religion, so this resemblance is just a coincidence, too.

reply to post by oozyism


bondage: the state of being under the control of another person

Sounds like religion to me

reply to post by deenuu


Elobarate tell me more, its no good reading a dictionary, getting one word and summing up religion is it ? Or maybe it is to you. Open your eyes to jesus, stop rejecting him, being under his guidance(not bondage by the way think next time when you try to sum religion) will make you a better person. But from what i understand you've obviously had a bad time with religion and ats is the perfect place to vent.....

reply to post by CHA0S

It takes a lot more faith to believe your idealology than it does mine. Nothing created nothing...it's all just accidental or incidental. Now that takes faith.


[edit on 2-5-2010 by seeashrink]

Rule BY secrecy is slavery, and the original or primary justification for the existence of monstrosities like the National "Security" STATE is religion, mainly Christianity. Rule by secrecy exists to coddle and defer to the fragile eggshell egos and psyches of various true believers. But to be fair, such believers encompass the mostly "mainstream" political and much or most of the scientific as well. They're all religions.

reply to post by seeashrink


Hello seeashrink!

Im going to use your response towards another poster for my scootching in on this thread topic if you dont mind.

Can you point out to where the poster you were referring to stated they believed that 'nothing came from nothing'?

Just because people dont believe in a 'separate entity as god' like a 'being' that is a creator...(its hard to put such things into words, language really holds us back when trying to share thoughts on such)...doesnt mean they believe that nothing comes from nothing. I think it is actually more obvious that the person does believe that something HAS to come from SOMETHING......

Like a previous Universe that collapsed, some sort of energy that had to take a transformation and then exploded back out into its self....(again, language limits me explaining).

Words like.....manifestation and emanation....can explain our existence, everything's existence....without there being this 'god on a throne in the sky' idea.

Energy moves...to and fro...and it seems to of not had a beginning and it doesnt seem like there will be a end, that somehow, everything just keeps forming anew and moving onward....manifesting, emanating.

I think, the idea of a 'God entity' creating something from nothing is just as flawed. People desire to have this God like a giant magician that can do anything that Thee wants. The problem I have with that...is a true higher humble intelligence....is not going to flaunt power, is not going to just give away answers, is not going to just expect species to believe in things they dont see....so it seems to me this world is very much accounted on our works, instead of our 'beliefs' or 'faith'.

Man has trouble imagining....what was here, what was there....before man, before Earth, before our Sun, before our galaxy....man has trouble thinking that we actually manifested from something prior to us, something very explainable and not magical at all. FOr me, this through does not mean there is not a higher power in existence....but that this higher power is not as separate from us as we think....its manifesting itself daily, has forever done this, will forever do this.

People of religion wants a 'end'. Then what I say? We all worship for eternity...and this is what your god is wanting? Think about that for a min. Doesnt that sound like a really big freaking ego. If I wanted worshiped for eternity, if I wanted lives to be killed for me, if I wanted to kill those that did not believe in things they could not see....what kind of fruit does that make me.

This is my point, I believe in a higher power, but I think religions have gotten man really really lost. Man has stopped discerning natures....the fruits can not be discerned if man is not looking from what tree they fell from.

I think its safe to say that there are ALOT of people that believe in cause and effect....and this belief does not mean they believe that 'nothing created nothing.

I for one believe in emanation....

How's that for a late entrance? I do mean well....
LV

[edit on 2-5-2010 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by Kaytagg


Todays religions do seem to be pushing for control because most of them are convinced the end of the world is coming, so man is willing to step up and act in ways the books tells them to....like defending a land (one special land) for God.

But I think mankind has needed the paths of beliefs...for man needs, trial and errors. As years and years pass...mans thinking evolves and reasons with experiences and times. I think we will see a breaking point with some religions when the world doesnt end in the next few decades.

If a 'belief' involves a man telling another man what they are supposed to believe...then the works for control and can be used. If a 'belief' is open, free, and personal....then the works for control can not be used. So I do support a personal spiritual path, over man believing another man.

It may be that some ideas of what god is are obsolete....but that doesnt make it absolute that there is not a higher prime power. It may just be that we will never understand what we cant see and it may be so that we are not meant to try to understand it....but just be good people and find reasons to do right here on this world. Not cause a 'book' has told us to...but because we have understanding of why one way works out better for us in the end.

I do think its very possible though that there are powers of men that will use the religions to their own favor...creating a 'end of the world' scenario....forcing man to 'seem' to unite for all of the right reasons. This thought is very scary....but when seeking out things like power, greed, and pride, man may go to bounds that we dont like to consider...to control the world.

Yes many religious people are good hearted people...Im not saying they are not, they do good works for many. But I find it best to always stay open minded when studying things that cant be seen. Just because religions may have a limited view of what 'god' is or isnt....doesnt really make 'god obsolete. I do think the Abrahamic religions are something that will have to work itself out in due time...and that their god image is not close to what a higher power really would be.

Edit to add....I do talk alot against organized religion...for it is a path I once walked so now I challenge the road I was on to others still on it. I think it has a lot to do with man's past of reasoning things they didnt understand...and now its formed into a absolute that causing people to only seek the unseen so far....its dangerous in my opinion any belief system that encourages a human to not use their own reasoning.

I do think we will have world war due to religions, over the land of Israel. I dont see any way out of it...and this will effect all of mankind. Mabey we wont blow ourselves up in the process of it all....but to me, this thing about a 'holy land' is the most dangerous thing man has came up against, and its against its own self.



[edit on 2-5-2010 by LeoVirgo]

How can you make someone believe that refuses the very idea? Even with proof there will always be an argument.
Can any of you prove that God does not exist? Many people have come to believe after trying to do this. They find that even though it may be circumstantial evidence it is still compelling. The bible has places, people, events and land marks that are mentioned in other writings from the same time period. It can be proven to be historically accurate. The stories in the bible is where ones faith comes in to play. I can read these other writings and see that some mention Jesus or Christ or Christus. Does this mean that he is the Son of God? No but it shows that he did live. I believe he is the Son of God through Faith.
If you have never believed in Him how can you know the feelings those have that do? I know He is there because of the joy He fills me with at times. And yes for those that believe, they see Him in everything around them.
It is not something to be proven or explained, it is to be experienced.
I asked a question earlier in this thread but never received an answer. People of faith through out history have made vast contributions to human life. How many atheist have done so?
Now for another question : If I am wrong, when I die what have I lost? Nothing.
If I am right then what does that mean you have lost? Everything.

There are many mentioning of Jesus claiming to be God, but not saying it out loud. He tries to allude to the idea to his disciples that he is. Although, many would turn this around and say "hey, he never claimed he did". A small example would be when he ask Peter who do you think I am. Peter responds the son of God. Christ then later saids that God himself told him. (in a manner that alludes to this idea). So, we have to come to the conclusion that God spoke to Peter directly. There is another instance where Christ alludes to the idea that He is God. Well all and all Christ was humble, but terrifyingly powerful at the same time.

I don't see why christianity always have to come up in debates such as this topic in the thread. Other religions do exist. Islam is regarded as a taboo subject almost (south park) and all other religions are considered more peaceful than christianity. Well what about cults? I hear a lot of negative things about this Yoga cult growing up in america. Christians aren't killing people, harming people, bombing people in any way shape or form. What we see is a growing issue with Islam. I for one think it is the idea that the middle east has yet to grow up as a society. Treating woman with respect and honoring the life of the human race. Western civilization is far more modern than middle east. I think Israel tries to adopt western culture and ideals where as all other middle east nations may view this as a heretical. just a thought

We may have negative christians running around making people look bad. such as rev claiming that Hati's practice of Voodoo caused the earthquake. Or people saying that God hates gays or even a flipside to abortion/stem cell. We have to look not only at this. What we have nowadays is a problem with Vatican raping children, Muslim extremist/own government fear tactics, political and ideological issues (tea party etc) and Chelsea Handler sex tape

stop judging

[edit on 2-5-2010 by Jordan River]

[edit on 2-5-2010 by Jordan River]

[edit on 2-5-2010 by Jordan River]