Freemason Knights Templar meeting here in Italy 2 days ago, changed my life...

reply to post by JoshNorton


Well, you believe the Masons in here 'wanted to set the record straight' and that's your prerogative

But to me, it looked like a bullying gang-attack on Vinny, designed to discredit him ... to threaten him .. to silence him ... and to locate and identify him ... in addition to make trouble for him

And we didn't like it

We didn't like it one bit


As I said in my first post in this thread

thank you, Freemasons, for confirming what so many claim and suspect about you

Originally posted by muzzleflash


I do not see masons openly admitting to being Templars anywhere.

I am not saying they didn't, I just seemed to have overlooked it.

Most of the Masons on this thread are also Templars. The Order of Knight Templar is the highest degree of the York Rite of Masonry.

Earlier in this thread, I posted links to the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States, which is the American council for Masonic Templars.

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

Are the alleged heretical, anti-Christian beliefs of the Templars then, the reason for the desperate attempts by Masons here to distance themselves from the Freemasonic-Templar association revealed by Vinny (even though we all supposed know about it anyway) ?

Freemasons and Knights Templar

If you can Google it and find out about it on many and sundry Masonic (actual Masonic not anti-Masonic) sites.

If you can look up the Wikipedia entry about it.

If Masons on a world-wide Internet chat board talk about it

How on Earth and by what definition do you define that as 'distancing'?

Originally posted by Mario78
Well, it is no mystery that many famous Americans, starting from B.Franklin and G.Washington all the way down to G.Bush sr were masons of the highest degree, so it might well be that some members of the highest order of the York Rite are famous men, so what ?

[edit on 22-4-2010 by Mario78]

No Bush wasn't a mason.

See there is confusion everywhere.

Ford was the last free mason president of the USA.

Bush is something else. Skull and Bones sure we all know. But there is something more. He has a title we do not know about yet.

Just showing how easily we can all get tripped up here.

Everyone says bush is a mason. But according to the research conducted, he was Not a mason.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I do not see masons openly admitting to being Templars anywhere.

I am not saying they didn't, I just seemed to have overlooked it.

You know I would remember if someone claimed to be a Templar, its a pretty huge claim and I am sure I would have remembered it.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of 4 who post here regularly. I've never wanted to become one, because to join you have to swear to "defend the Christian faith above all others", and I refuse to do that.

Masonic Light in 2008

I am a Master Mason, a Past Master of my Lodge, 32° KCCH in the Scottish Rite, Royal Arch Mason, Cryptic Mason, and Knight Templar in the York Rite, and belong to several appendent and honorary Masonic bodies and degrees.*

SilentThunder

Sir, I'm a real-life Knight Templar™ and a McRosecrucian to Boot. I'm also an O.T.O. initiate, and I have even manged to reach the 96th degree of Memphis-Misraim (that's Grand and Puissant Soveriegn of the Order to you, son). This doesn't even count various initiations and empowerments of a Buddhistic nature received in East Asia over the years. And I can tell you this with absolute clarity: The only danged thing I'm gonna be "taking out" any time soon is the garbage, after which I'm gonna wash my hands and maybe go putter about on the roof garden a bit. *

Emsed1

As a Freemason and Knight Templar perhaps I can offer insight.

The Order of the Temple is a degree in the York Rite of Freemasonry. One must be a Master Mason in order to join York Rite, then he can proceed through the degrees to Knight Templar.

The masonic Knights Templar haven't established any direct connection with the Templar Knights of de Molay's time, although it would be nice if such a connection could be proven.

I don't think it's possible to disprove a Templar connection to Freemasonry, but I don't know why anyone would want to.

There are many organizations like SMOTJ and the Rosicrucians that claim a Templar heritage as well.

The masonic Knights Templar simply try to model themselves after the poor-fellow knights that escorted believers to the Holy Land.

And to make pancakes.

And have fish fries, etc.*

edit: oops. Got Emsed1 in there twice. The 4th is KSigMason, but I don't have an immediate quote. He talks about it all the time though...

[edit on 4/22/2010 by JoshNorton]

I am sorry but just because you can google Templar + masonry and get 5million hits doesn't what you are implying it means.

There has been major resistance to the Knights Templar theories on ATS for a long time. The threads linked earlier actually prove this.

Anyone can look up their history sure, but it is not common knowledge that any form of Templar - Masonic connections existed today in the modern world.

This is newfound knowledge to me, and I am happy to have it finally.

But really it only opens the doors for tons of more questions.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Uh.....JN?

That's only 3 (unless Emsed1 is bipolar)

HTH
Fitz

Originally posted by JoshNorton


Off the top of my head, I can only think of 4 who post here regularly. I've never wanted to become one, because to join you have to swear to "defend the Christian faith above all others", and I refuse to do that.

Just for the record, the obligation of the Templar is indeed to defend the Christian faith, but not "above all others". The Templar is bound to protect the persecuted, regardless of the religion of such.

reply to post by muzzleflash


They will admit nothing of substance save through their own reactionary emotional lapses.

None of them here are privy to many details. The thing about hierarchal structures is they are designed to appeal to vanity. Once they reach a certain level within the hierarchy that they have been told is the pinnacle, then they simply assume they know all there is to know.

To accept that there is more still being withheld is to accept their own inferiority as being one unworthy to be indoctrinated into the next step.

The truth is that to go up beyond the 32nd degree, or 3rd in Scottish rite, they must have inherited a noble blood line, or be a dominant oligarch on the world scale.

So it’s not like they could even overcome their inferiority in most cases.

The highest level is reserved for Caesar, so only one may obtain that.

They are simply disconcerted at the notion that one of their own was about to betray to them what is closely guarded secret of non-admission, that would be disastrous for one to claim.

What you are seeing here, is the typical tactic of a good criminal. If you have been stopped by the police with a trunk load of narcotics, and they ask to search, well the first thing you do, is offer up some relatively harmless but illegal piece of paraphernalia, in the hopes of placating the police, and thwarting any additional search by being seemingly forthcoming.

What some people are saying is I am a Mason, and I am also a Templar, but they are not saying Masons and Knights Templar are one in the same.

So while they are admitting to the existence of Templar Knights and that some of them are, they are clearly doing so in a way, that they then want to illustrate as being two separate things, and not mutually exclusive things.

This is another ruse.

At best you can hope for is people who imagine they are too clever for their own good to inadvertently let a tidbit here or there slip.

It’s why they were all over this guy like white on rice.

His was no unintentional slip of the tongue but a direct admission that ties Masons and Templar Knights as being one in the same.

That is what has them circling the wagons.

It’s plain to see.

I wouldn’t expect more, other than enjoying the nervous charade now being staged.


[edit on 22/4/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by JoshNorton


Thanks, I am sorry I made you dig like that.

You can see why I missed it though right?

When people start listing their 20 titles I gloss over it. It's like bragging basically.

So I admit I actually do skip over junk like that, I apologize.

I am sorry to make you look it up for me.

You win for effort.

Thanks though. I've totally missed it by all this time yikes!

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


But all you're really saying is that you do not believe Vinny is a Mason

The truth is though, surely --- that you don't want anyone else to believe Vinny's a Mason ?

If you can successfully discredit Vinny, you are hoping you will convince others that nothing he claimed is true ?

So basically, you don't give a damn if Vinny's a Mason or not ?

Your concern is to pour cold water on the meeting he attended ?

So it's the affiliation between Freemasonry and Templars ... particularly in this instance ... which you're so keen people should dismiss ?

Why this particular instance ? After all, Freemasons here have made light of what they claim IS a brotherhood of Freemasons/Templars

Are there two Freemason-Templar junkets being conducted in Italy ?

Is the concern that people, courtesy of Vinny's claims, will unearth information about the meeting of concern, via the 'harmless' gathering which you've dismissed as being of no importance ?

Was the 'unimportant' Freemasonic-Templar gathering organised to coincide with what was supposed to be a 'secret' meeting, as a cover ?

Wow....

So much nit picking through this guy "vinny's" story.

Personally, I didnt buy it for a second. Maybe he is in Italy, maybe he recently became a member, and maybe he "heard" about a meeting taking place nearby while he was there.

Its not that I dont want to believe this story, its just that a story in the end is well....just a story.

Without proof of some sort, its hard to just take things at face value. Had he snuck out his phone and snapped a pic of something, anything, it would vastly improve the credibility. Even if it was just one of the supposed "american diplomats"

If this story is true, then Vinny I fear you have been played. They clearly knew who you were, and wanted to perhaps test you? Or even get you to unknowingly spread disiniformation as someone else posited.

And, I fear that if these men you encountered really were "very bad, and very powerful" then dont you assume they would have the resources to monitor your movements, online and otherwise? They could easily have bugged your room, they could intercept data you send out, they could even tail you all the way back to the states. If you watch the movie "Eyes Wide Shut", you will get an idea of what Im insinuating. People who suddenly stumble on to secret information, whether on their own accord, or by invitation to be a "translator", pose a great threat to people who "compartmentalize" information JUST SO IT DOESNT END UP ON SITES LIKE ATS.

Right?

If I were you and I had just witnessed what you allegedly witnessed, I wouldnt tell a soul using my personal computer and a hotel WiFi connection. Especially while you're still on their turf! Do you realize how easy it would be for you to have an "accident," and not make it back to Chi town?

Historically, secret societies, government groups (CIA etc), Military, especially dont like people who kiss and tell.

If everything you said is true, then you've already said to much. They know enough about you to "silence" you, or to track down your family for your treasonous decision to disclose info.

The fact that you blame "fate," then go on to say this is "God's" plan for you, makes your story sound so cheesy and cliche. No offense OP

Just because I saw a group of white guys with shaved heads and swastika tattoos DOESN'T mean they are the direct descendants of the REAL NAZI party. No conspiracy, just a bunch of A-holes trying to feel important.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Josh Norton resolved this issue in a previous post and I conceded without checking the threads he very kindly provided, (a) because he strikes me as honest and (b) because I was too lazy

but thank you

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


What some people are saying is I am a Mason, and I am also a Templar, but they are not saying Masons and Knights Templar are one in the same.

So while they are admitting to the existence of Templar Knights and that some of them are, they are clearly doing so in a way, that they then want to illustrate as being two separate things, and not mutually exclusive things.

This is another ruse.

It isn't a ruse, it's a simple fact. The Order of Knights Templar is a degree within Freemasonry. Therefore, all Templars are Masons, but not all Masons have received the degree of Templar.

Wither Vinny?

The silence from Vinny's deafening here. For a Chicago boy nominally in Italy where it's just coming up 10pm, he seems strangely silent. Maybe he'll start posting sometime around 7 or8pm EDT (1-2am in Italy) because of his "jetlag".


Just wondering

Fitz

Originally posted by muzzleflash
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

Thanks, I am sorry I made you dig like that.

...

I am sorry to make you look it up for me.

You win for effort.

and

Originally posted by Dock9
Josh Norton resolved this issue in a previous post and I conceded without checking the threads he very kindly provided, (a) because he strikes me as honest and (b) because I was too lazy

Thanks for the support, guys. I pride myself in both being honest in all my threads here at ATS, but also calling it like I see it. Sometimes I may be wrong, and often I'll state something that's mostly true, but I might be wrong about one detail, and Masonic Light always politely corrects me on it, but really, we're not trying to pull the wool over anyone here. We just want to deny the ignorance of those who might make accusations against us without knowing what we're really about.

reply to post by Masonic Light

It isn't a ruse, it's a simple fact. The Order of Knights Templar is a degree within Freemasonry. Therefore, all Templars are Masons, but not all Masons have received the degree of Templar.

No that is in fact the opposite, all Masons are Templars, not all Templars though are Masons!

Whether they have recieved the degree of a Templar, is irrelevant because the next step in the Pyramid is the Templars.

However a Templar does not have to descend the pyramid to be a Mason!

See how that works, the Pyramid flows from the top down.

Have to leave now, but before I do, I'm curious as to why none of the Masons here have remarked upon records of the time which claim Temlars denied Christ in a variety of way, many of them disgustingly

As Masons freely admit here that they ARE affiliated with the Templars, is it correct to assume that Freemasons are also anti-Christian, even rabidly so ?

And is the fact that Freemasons are anti-Christian the primary reason for all their hysterical secrecy and threats to initiates re: disembowelling etc. should they reveal whom/what Freemasons DO worship ?

Goodnight and thank you all for a stimulating discussion

Originally posted by Dock9
But all you're really saying is that you do not believe Vinny is a Mason

The truth is though, surely --- that you don't want anyone else to believe Vinny's a Mason ?

And if he were lying about this would you want to know? How would it affect your perception of other 'facts' he may be trying to convey to you and others? Does a person description of themselves not offer a basis on which to judge other claim if indeed their description is a flasehood?

If you can successfully discredit Vinny, you are hoping you will convince others that nothing he claimed is true ?

Once again, I do not care that this meeting took place and even if he attended the same. Anyone could have gained addmission.

So basically, you don't give a damn if Vinny's a Mason or not ?

No, actually I do, I do not think pretending to be something one is not is admirable.

Your concern is to pour cold water on the meeting he attended ?

Again, I do not care about the meeting. He has provided zero infomration about that.

So it's the affiliation between Freemasonry and Templars ... particularly in this instance ... which you're so keen people should dismiss ?

As far as I know there is no connection to the histroical Knights Templar. Nor would I care if there was. This group, it obviously appears, has not relation and only postualtes to have one to promote its own agenda.

Are there two Freemason-Templar junkets being conducted in Italy ?

I have no idea, I am not a member of the York Rite.

Is the concern that people, courtesy of Vinny's claims, will unearth information about the meeting of concern, via the 'harmless' gathering which you've dismissed as being of no importance ?

I think it has already been established what the group in question supports.

Was the 'unimportant' Freemasonic-Templar gathering organised to coincide with what was supposed to be a 'secret' meeting, as a cover ?

I have no idea.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


You ask 'where's Vinny ? '

After the gang-bashing to which he was relentlessly subjected ?

After a concerted assault was made to destroy his credibility ?

After he stated he had hired internet access for 20 minutes ?


That's rubbing the salt in, don't you think ?