I give up any access to Healthcare if I can do whatever I want.

reply to post by Chicken_Bone


That would be the vagrantism option. Not so much self sustainable as it would be a simple existence of dependence. Living as a leech. Not even a respectable leech as what would be given me would not be by choice but by government decree and force of authority.

Not for me.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Well you are a good man, and that is a hinderance these days. I find it amazing that our government rewards bad behavior while at the same time punishes good behavior. For instance, if you create a business in this country that creates jobs you are handing money to the government left and right. Now if you choose not to work at all they are tripping over themselves to give you more money. Now people just expect the government to extend unemployment benefits forever or to keep handing out more money for more welfare babies.

reply to post by Chicken_Bone

See the sad thing is that many people expect someone to provide them a job. Have you ever heard of creating your own business/job?

I own my own business...I am self-employed...so yeah...I'm kind of familiar with it.

The thing you have trouble seeing is that once the government goes bankrupt we will become a third world sweat shop factory for the rest of the world.

How would you know if I fail to see this when we haven't been talking about the government going bankrupt? We were talking about your "lost freedoms"...not the government going bankrupt...let's stay on topic and not try to shift the discussion.

There is nothing wrong with a little government. The issue is that it has become entirely:
1. TOO BIG
2. TOO INSTUSIVE
3. TOO EXPENSIVE

Defined TOO BIG, TOO INTRUSIVE, and TOO EXPENSIVE. If you admit that you want SOME government...then the argument is no longer about the government controlling you life...because you admit that some control is ok. It becomes about how much it should control...and that is an individual OPINION that can not be defined. So we vote for those that share our opinion...and if more people share my opinion than yours...then that is how the society lives until the majority (kind of) of the people change their opinion.

It really isn't that hard of a concept.

It is like a noose around the neck of every American businsess. We cannot compete in the global marketplace, because the government keeps our hands tied behind our backs.

This contradicts everything else you have been saying. Because American CORPORATIONS are just doing fine with this idea of the global economy. And it is actually the lack of government regulations that is allowing AMERICAN CORPORATIONS to outsource all the labor that should be hear in the United States. Don't you worry about the American Corporations...they are doing just fine...I don't understand how this fits into your argument at all.

As far as the rest of your questions, ask them one at a time and I will do my best to answer them.

Every question I asked you is still stated in my previous posts in this thread...I'm not going to retype them...go back and look them up. It's not that hard. They all end with a question mark if you are having a hard time locating them.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Wow. I never thought I'd meet someone on the internet who can actually cripple their arguments like that. Hats off to you, I agree with what you say.

reply to post by Wide-Eyes


the uk and the us are not the same

i have seen the way they run medicare, and veteran affairs and let me tell you IT'S CORRUPT

not only do they take away your free choice on the matter, but they have alredy proven for over 50 years that they cannot manage the money to run the system and the people who run these systems do not get paid as much as independent doctors etc, so your treatment becomes the lowest standard of treatment you can imagine

that is how we treat people on medicaid and veterans, why do you think the rest of us on a new government program will be treated better?

[edit on 4/20/2010 by indigothefish]

Originally posted by Wide-Eyes
I am from UK dude and have had public healthcare since I was born. I have recieved treatment as and when I need it and all it has cost me is a small percentage of my wages and a huge tax on my cigerettes (that's why I buy them duty free

).

I have done enormous amounts of damage to body through drinking and smoking and nobody stopped me. I will still get treated when I have a health problem so I think you are stressing about nothing.

...

cant really say it much better!

im in agreement, that i just dont understand WHY americans would rather shell out insane amounts of money to have something done, when with a small tax increase you never need to worry about it again!

anyone who is against the american healthcare is just plain insane! Its basicly free healthcare, they wont be telling you how to live your life... do you think their going to have doctors following everyone about their daily lifes?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Defined TOO BIG, TOO INTRUSIVE, and TOO EXPENSIVE. If you admit that you want SOME government...then the argument is no longer about the government controlling you life...because you admit that some control is ok. It becomes about how much it should control...and that is an individual OPINION that can not be defined. So we vote for those that share our opinion...and if more people share my opinion than yours...then that is how the society lives until the majority (kind of) of the people change their opinion.

Government doesn't have to control. A federal government should only function in a few ways. It should defend, provide justice that falls outside state jurisdictions, and it should ASSIST in coordinating state activities.

Its purpose should be to assist the states in their pursuits and defense. Not too control.

Lets define too big...
The Federal government including postal workers.. 3 million civilian workers. This doesnt even include military, state government workers, country government workers, or city government workers.

Lets define too intrusive....
A kid gets stopped by the police for not wearing a helmet while riding a bike.

You cant drive your own car without wearing a seatbelt, getting a license, getting insurance

You cant smoke or drink without paying sin tax

You cant build a house unless they approve how it is built

You cant spank your kid in public without them questoning you

You cant work without registering yourself with the government.

You cant start a business without registering your business and jumping through the hoops.

You cant voice your opinion unless it agrees with them, or you are labeled a radical.

Lets define:
Too expensive.
Federal government is going to spend 3.8 TRILLION DOLLARS this year. Of course, they only collected 2.4 Trillion so they got to borrow a few dollars... Just 1.4 Trillion.

This doesnt even include state and local tax/expense.


By the way most people don't share your opinion. Just wait until November when all the politicians who think like you get thrown out on their big, fat, lazy asses.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Chicken_Bone]

reply to post by boaby_phet

im in agreement, that i just dont understand WHY americans would rather shell out insane amounts of money to have something done, when with a small tax increase you never need to worry about it again!

anyone who is against the american healthcare is just plain insane! Its basicly free healthcare, they wont be telling you how to live your life... do you think their going to have doctors following everyone about their daily lifes?

LOL... It is not free healthcare. I hate to burst your little Pollyanna bubble, but nothing in this world is free.

They dont need to have doctors follow us around every day. They will just regulate and tax everything we do until it is too financially painful for us to do otherwise. Of course, they will say it is for our own good, because they know what we should do and they could give a damn about what we WANT to do.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

If I could just have the family farm back I wouldnt need the roads or the schools or any of that other garbage that only serves to make self sustainable life impossible and enforces commutes and decentralized development.

And you make this argument on the internet that was developed by public universities that were funded with tax dollars.

Do you see the irony in this at all?

Did you lose the family farm due to taxes or a default loan? As a family farm...did your family ever recieve government subsidies that almost all farmer recieve???

There isnt anywhere on this Earth I can go for that. Not without some authority claiming ownership and fining me, throwing me in jail or just killing me.

That isn't true...you just have to do some research. There are many tax havens around the world.

You have to pay taxes to live. So you have to have an income. So you have to be apart of the system they set up.

So you are saying the only reason you need an income is to pay taxes? So if you had your family farm back...would you have traded some food at Best Buy to get the computer you are on? Would your ISP accept your crops as payment for their service? Are you going to farm all by hand...or use some machines? Where are you going to get your seeds...how will you pay for those?

So if you had your farm...you would leave society...leave behind all the comforts of our society...and live as a hermit on your farm...eat only the food you grow and make your own clothes???

You can do that now...go live with the Amish...nothing is stopping you....are you going to do it?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

So if you had your farm...you would leave society...leave behind all the comforts of our society...and live as a hermit on your farm...eat only the food you grow and make your own clothes???

You asked me if I knew history earlier. Do you know history? How do you think this country started out. It was mostly farming. Grow more than you need, sell the rest, use the receipts to guy what you want.

You can do that now...go live with the Amish...nothing is stopping you....are you going to do it?

Yeah he could do that if he wanted. He wouldnt have to be a hermit, but he could raise or grow most of his food. He could sell his extra crops for money and buy a computer, buy equipment with cash and wth no help from the government.

Most of the Amish do quite well for themselves by the way. Part of it is that they are exempt from certain federal expenses. Did you know they are also exempt from the new healthcare laws?

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Chicken_Bone]

reply to post by indigothefish

that is how we treat people on medicaid and veterans, why do you think the rest of us on a new government program will be treated better?

What "new government program"???


Please don't tell me you still think the Health Care Bill is creating nationalized health care or a government run health care system.

Americans are just mad because they won't have as much salt in their processed food anymore. It angers them to have to work the salt shaker.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Please don't tell me you still think the Health Care Bill is creating nationalized health care or a government run health care system.

No that is not the case. The Progressives are just forcing us to buy health insurance from the very companies they said were evil and corrupt and overcharging us. Kind of ironic isn't it?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I make this argument from my cubicle at the job I have to have since I needed an income to pay the taxes ion a property that was taken from me anyway.

I wouldnt even have electricity. I have no need for it. At least I had no need for it. Now I'm stuck in the system they set up. At least until I can find some way out. A legal and respectful way out.

The Amish are still subjected to certain taxes, fees and regulations. As well as their little god garbage they all live under.

All Ive ever wanted was to disappear and live and die by by my own labor on my own property. I thought I had it going until the gov came and took it all away.

I dont want the roads. I dont want the electricity. I dont want the cops or the fire department or hospitals or any of the other magic nonsense my extortion allegedly funds. I dont want any of it and I never did. Yet here I am. Despite my work and despite my desires in a cube sharecropping for the government.

reply to post by Chicken_Bone

Its purpose should be to assist the states in their pursuits and defense. Not too control.

Really? How would you like them to pay for that defense? Oh that's right...taxes.

And that isn't the only role of the federal government as spelled out in the constitution...so are you saying you would like to re-write the constitution?

Lets define too big...
The Federal government including postal workers.. 3 million civilian workers. This doesnt even include military, state government workers, country government workers, or city government workers.

1% of the population doesn't seem too big at all.

Lets define too intrusive....
A kid gets stopped by the police for not wearing a helmet while riding a bike.

This isn't federal government... but do you have a source for this ever happening...or is this more like an urban legend?

You cant drive your own car without wearing a seatbelt, getting a license, getting insurance

This isn't federal government. And I agree with the license and the insurance...not the seatbelt so much. I don't want to be driving with a bunch of people who were never taught the rules of the road or who are legally blind. Call me crazy....but I'd rather not die because a blind 100 year old is still driving. And insurance I agree with because it is for LIABILITY.

You cant smoke or drink without paying sin tax

This isn't federal government. But there is good cause for these taxes. They both contribute to health issues. And alcohol contributes to a lot of crime and accidents. I see no probalby making the people who are causing these things pay for them.

You cant build a house unless they approve how it is built

Again...not federal. But again I agree with it...because I don't want my neighbor to try to build a 20 story house because he thinks he knows how to. I would rather not have a pile of wood and steel fall onto my house.

You cant spank your kid in public without them questoning you

Another urban legend...I have seen plenty of parents give their kids a little swat in the store. Now you can beat your kid in public...and that makes sense to me.

You cant work without registering yourself with the government.

You mean pay taxes...right? How is the fedral governemnt suppose to "defend" us like you said it should above without taxes?

You cant start a business without registering your business and jumping through the hoops.

I literally set up my company in one afternoon. Visited a lawyer and an accountant all in one day. Talk to my accountant 4 times a year and my lawyer once...have never had to talk to one government official about starting my own business. It's really not that hard.

You cant voice your opinion unless it agrees with them, or you are labeled a radical.

But you can voice your opinion...which is all that is protected. Why do you want take away their right to free speech in return? Shouldn't they have a right to label you however they want?

Too expensive.
Federal government is going to spend 3.8 TRILLION DOLLARS this year. Of course, they only collected 2.4 Trillion so they got to borrow a few dollars... Just 1.4 Trillion.

Ok...what is your solution?

I know you think they should cut expenses...but where? Don't complain if you don't have a solution.

By the way most people don't share your opinion. Just wait until November when all the politicians who think like you get thrown out on their big, fat, lazy asses.

Oh YAY...go republicans...they will help us....You can't be serious...can you?

I'm not all into the chest beating about November...Dems will lose seats...every party does when they are in power...check it out...it's that little history thing again. But it isn't going to be anywhere near what the conservative talking heads are feeding you.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

I make this argument from my cubicle at the job I have to have since I needed an income to pay the taxes ion a property that was taken from me anyway.

You are not giving the whole story. Either someone decided not to pay taxes on the property or a loan defaulted or something. Taxes shouldn't be that hard to pay if you are holding a full time job in a cubical. Now if you had said you make this arguemnt from your cashier stand at walmart everyday...I could see you not making enough to clear the taxes. But you are not telling the whole story...something else is up.

I dont want the roads. I dont want the electricity. I dont want the cops or the fire department or hospitals or any of the other magic nonsense my extortion allegedly funds. I dont want any of it and I never did. Yet here I am. Despite my work and despite my desires in a cube sharecropping for the government

Then leave the country...because not matter how much you don't want these things...you are living here in OUR (you, me, everyone else) SOCIETY. If you don't want to be part of OUR SOCIETY....then leave. If you don't want the protection living in the United States gives you...and you aren't willing to contribute to that protection...then leave. Go research tax havens...they are out there...but you need to do the work to find them and move there.

I'm sorry to crash on your pity party....but you sound childish....you want you want you want...but you are not willing to contribute.

Reply to post by OutKast Searcher

If I'm not taking anything from why should I "contribute" to as you put it?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by thisguyrighthere

Regarding these mythical "tax havens" I'm not rich. I'm dirt eating poor. Until the lack of income and no desire to turn a profit lost me my dirt I was at least able to have potatoes to supplement my dirt.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Ok...what is your solution?

I know you think they should cut expenses...but where? Don't complain if you don't have a solution.

Actually I do have some ideas.

1. The federal government should not be allowed to borrow one more dime, unless we are attacked and must finance a war against our attacker.

2. So basically they can only finance 2/3 of the government expenses with their tax income. So every department should cut staff and expenses by 1/3.

3. Social Security should be phased out over the next 15 years.

4. Medicare and Medicaid should be phased out over the next 5 years. Seniors should get subsidies for the next 10 years for private insurance relative to what they paid into the system over the years.

5. If you are on Medicaid then you are poor, so that means you can't have a tv, cable, a cell phone, a car, etc.... and you have to shop at the grocery store not Seven Eleven for your groceries and you have to take care of your kids.

6. We should start drilling for every drop of oil we have in this country.

7. We should make use of the natural resources we have.

8. We shoud pull out of South Korea and Germany.

9. We should end the dept of education. States can handle that.

10. We should sell the highway system to private companies, where you pay to use them and they make sure they are maintained.

11. We should cut every government workers pay by 20% (4% a year for the next 5 years) and get their benefits in line with the rest of the workers in this country.

12. We should let businesses fail when they fail instead of pumping them full of tax dollars.

reply to post by Chicken_Bone


So when you need ER medical attention at one point we will just be able to dispose of you without batting an eyelash is that correct?

Most of your freedom rant is garbage when real world circumstances come into play. Anyway, I'd still help you, but I know what it's like to need help in time of need. Hopefully you are never put in the same position because I am guessing you would be signing a different tune at that point brother.

Later