Plane carrying Polish president Lech Kaczynski crashes near Russian airport, CONFIRMED DEAD

Originally posted by aboxoftrix
Why I wonder, was it ever approved that this plane should land on an airport runway that wasn't equipped for planes its size and structure.
Can anyone tell me?

Actually the runway was sufficient for the Tu 154, and even larger aircraft. That airport serves a base for a large number of heavy Il 76 transport planes, and sees relatively high traffic for large aircraft. However it appears based on reports that is not equipped to guide planes during zero or low visibility condition, like there were that morning. It does not have the necessary navigation and radar equipment for that.

The Tu 154 itself should have some equipment for landing in zero visibility conditions, but I don't know how useful it would be without airport's assistance.

So the Tu 154 can land there without problems during regular conditions, but obviously had to be diverted during heavy fog. But ultimately it is the pilot that decides, so no aviation rules were broken. The pilot needs no approval, but of course should have followed the control tower's advice.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by maloy]

I wonder what that plane crash would look like in the USA? Hmmmmmm?

Some more info. Only one landing may have been attempted.

Russia's Prime Minister Putin was briefed by local officials, that the required horizontal visibility for the approach to the North Airport would have been 1000 meters with an actual visibility of 400 meters. The airplane impacted trees of a height of about 8 meters (26 feet) about 1200 meters (3950 feet) short of the airfield when the airplane should have been at a height of at least 60 meters (200 feet). The airplane continued to impact multiple single trees and was destroyed before the airplane impacted ground. Emergency responders reached the crash site within 3 minutes. An investigation team of 60 people is on scene.

The air traffic controller at Smolensk Air Base (Northern Airport) said, that the communication between him and the crew was done in Russian, the crew understanding Russian but not being fluent in the language and having trouble to do their readbacks. The airplane was on its first approach, when he advised of the deteriorating visibility and recommended to divert, the crew however responded, that they would give it one try and divert thereafter if they were not able to land. During the approach the crew stopped reading back, the aircraft subsequently impacted ground.

The Aviation Herald

most aviation accidents occur due to a chain of events if one link is broken then things can fall apart .maybe the pilot was under pressure ,possibly suffering from gethereitis which is why he continued his attempts to land despite warnings.But then again if he is the pilot of the presidents plane he would be highly trained and not a risk taker.Very strange he should take risks trying to land in fog imo. I think the fog will become much thicker on the facts surrounding this .

CNN reported that the Pres. body is back in Poland, but the rest of the bodies have to go to Moscow before being returned to Poland, including the First Lady.

I just want to express my sympathies to Poland. I am very sorry for your losses. That is a harsh blow and I send my condolences to all your citizens.Very sad times. I am very sorry you have to go through this.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by nixie_nox]

Originally posted by 12voltzVery strange he should take risks trying to land in fog imo.

- you don't know polish realities. Kaczynski was authoritative, the pilot was 35 years old, on board there were also present his direct military commander and believe or not - but Poles think the other way around very often in situations like this with safety issues - instead of taking as little risk as possible - they may make the spin of the whole situation like this - "can't you land here? You were supposed to be a good pilot! Do you know who are watching you now?" and so on. Taking risk is rewarded, taking no risk is perceived as being the chicken. Also not many people feel obligated to obey the rules. This is after the communism. Regulations are to be broken, everybody is the master of the situation - especially Kaczynski didn't care too much about constraints. It helps sometimes when you are a leader but not in this case. This mental spin can be implicit or explicit, internal or external - but the pressure goes in entirely wrong direction here. That is why normal airplane tries to land once and goes to the other airport - but the plane with the president, all the main generals, president of the central bank, secretary of the state ant teens of others high officials have to fly around in the fog over the hopeless airport until it crashes. No mater how but you have to land here attitude - so he did. Everything but taking minimal risk. This is entirely backwards and it is hard to grasp for normal people who highly value safety. Turning back would be perceived as making unnecessary problems, being incompetent instead of the other way around. It is a shame and plane stupidity, lack of certain culture. Workers very often don't use basic safety equipment, no glasses, no masks, no nothing - this is different world, people don't think here so much about safety. This is not any value here yet. That is why Poles will twist the truth here most likely - because the truth is most probably shameful.

There is even a possibility in my opinion that after 3 attempts to land somebody else took the control over the plane. Who knows, maybe even the commander after having few drinks before. I don't believe it but wouldn't be surprised about equally stupid thing AT ALL either. Kaczynski's body was in relatively good condition- so he didn't interfere personally with the pilots at the critical moment, he was in the back during the crash. Some time earlier in Georgia he tried to force the pilot to land - but the pilot refused due to safety reasons. Kaczynski was furious that some stupid pilot didn't listen to HIM. I don’t know what happened to this pilot after that. Rules very often don't apply to the elites here. They do whatever they want, there is very bad corruption here. If King of Norway brakes the speed limit - he gets a fee and everybody can read about it in the newspaper next day – a politician in Poland you have immunity, you can drive drunk if you are from the power "elites" because every policeman "must obey" - if not the next day he will be fired due to high level connections of those corrupted politicians. (not all). They have to fly in clique because theirs position is often based on social connections in the circle, they make corruption deals, drink and so on together. Guys, I repeat - this is Poland, this explains the whole conspiracy. This time just the truth about ordinary stupidity may be hidden and twisted . Wee will see…

Yes I could just visualize that situation on board like you presented. I think that most Poles which knows our ex president can imagine that this situation could look like that.

Don't you remember action in Georgia with that shotting over their had. "Jut take me there, I have to see the battle on my own eyes" He was that kind of man unfortunately.

drax7: nice find.

single landing attempt pretty much rules out what some here were suggesting - pilot error by extreme stupidity. sure, everyone is able to do something wrong - but such experienced pilot wouldn't make such a big mistake at first attempt, imho. also, it fits one theory i saw somewhere on the web - automatic lock on steering after the landing gear was lowered. that couldn't be the case with 3 or 4 attempts, but sure as hell fits this situation.

imagine: the plane approaches the airport, pilot gets the warning but decides to try once, lowers the landing gear... bummer. plane turns on it's side, goes down and even with increasing speed the pilot can't make it go up again - hits the trees with quite some speed - ripped into pieces. and it all perfectly fits.

also, the fog wasn't there earlier in the morning - it appeared suddenly, according to the witnesses. one plane with reporters actually landed there that morning, without any problems - second one was diverted, then third one crashed.

also, something was wrong with the plane itself, right after the take off in warsaw. judge on your own.



now... who did it and why? for me it wasn't accident, that's sure. the plane was in good technical condition (the photo above... imho smells like a sabotage), pilot certainly wasn't an idiot willing to risk his own or anyone elses life, and the fog... the fog wasn't there shortly before the crash. now, when you'll search for motives, you'll certainly find some for just about anyone. that's not the way. i'm looking at the behaviour of suspects.

russia - whatever you may think about them, one thing is certain. when it comes to faul play, they're not nice. ever. they really don't have to be. and now... take a look at current behaviour of russian prime minister, russian president, russian media... they're doing more to give poland a hand than ever before. it looks almost like they're doing their best to show polish people that they do have a heart and that they know how we feel, and that they're sorry for the past. that's not how NWO plays their games.

USA - where's obambi? i'm asking, where is that kenyan fraud? everyone shows solidarity with poland, but i yet have to hear any news about a single word from the president of the united states of america, mr barack obama. obviously, something went wrong for them. they wouldn't mind telling us few more lies, like some warm words for polish people, if not something that has to make them choke at such attempt - behaviour of russians.

sudden fog, possible electromagnetic influence or technical sabotage, that smells exactly like CIA and exactly like US job. they could do it, and the reasons could be many. first, i'm not sure about it, but it's possible that before new president will be chosen, tusk - our current prime minister, will manage to remove president's veto right from the constitution. current 'president' won't give a damn, and future one will be just a puppet. tusk always was more liberal and didn't try to protect our interests that much, imho. that may change however, it all depends on the amount of cooperation between tusk and putin in the future. or maybe they did it because of polish currency policy. or maybe because our soldiers are in few places around the globe, and top polish generals didn't agree on something with US generals - who knows.

one thing is certain, USA had a lot of reasons to do it, and considering the fact it most likely wasn't an accident... they wanted us to blame russia. i can feel how putin is pissed off because of this. and i can only imagine how obambi is pissed off because of putin and other russians doing the right thing, and acting like human beings.

and sure, there is NWO above all of this - but still, there are fractions, and noone said everyone has to play according to the plan. imho, russia isn't playing according to their plans, and that may somehow piss off USA. a lot.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by jedi_hamster]

i read somewhere a year or two ago related to another crash in africa that they suspectd maybe someone broadcast a fake signal that caused those pilots in heavy fog to miss the runway and hit a building. they were homing in on the signal they use in bad weather. i think it was in africa, somewhere like that. it was done to kill some officials so they could have a coup, but instead of the president's plane they did it too early and it crashed a civilian one instead. i tried to find the article now to post a link but didn't find it. i was thinking this was maybe the same, a way for russia to send poland a message, or maybe it was moer terrorism like the subway bombings a few week ago.

Paul

to: jedi_hamster

Take some rest and think about facts once more. I can't find the reason to made such action in killing them because it doesn't simply give any benefits to anybody and your conclusions sounds to me wrong because of lack of knowledge of our reality. The only think which I can believe and understand is that people in US with Obama on top had believed in the beginning that we would blame automatically Russians for everything. It shows how you little understand that situation. This touches our difficult history deeply to our souls. This have very strong metaphysical and symbolic meaning to our both nations in matters that only we could understand.

I know that we says often that Russians are bastards and barbarians and they say about us that we are ungrateful prigs but it's nothing unusual in such pathological family like ours

[edit on 11-4-2010 by odyseusz]

I am compelled to add a few comments:

First, my deepest condolences are offered to families of all the victims of the tragic plane crash.

Next, anyone who is equating the debris of a crashed commercial airliner on a low speed approach of runway in bad weather to that of Flight 93 / Shanksville which likely crashed at high speed from a high altitude dive knows ZILCH about aviation. Your ignorance is astounding.

Lastly, I can almost overlook the numerous crude comments made by the OP, who is a self-described “Doom Addict” who is unapologetically excited about the prospects of WW3 as a result of his big ”scoop”. However I cannot forgive the callous, insensitive and immature comments (below) amidst human tragedy where 95+ people perished to support his cockamamie, biased conspiracy theories, replete with smiley emoticons .

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Watching the images/video of the plane, this debunks 9/11 once again.

...At least the polish government won't have died for nothing! They will have debunked 9/11 official story!

I am happy to join the numerous other on-going threads by unbiased and objective
OP contributors who seek rational analysis minus the feeble childish antics.

Perhaps the OP should return his Jr. Internet Reporter Module back to the shop for a tune-up and freshen the firmware with the latest decency and manners update.

He reminds me of Barney Fife reporting on the Mayberry National Bank heist.

Sincerely...kk

Originally posted by jedi_hamster
USA - where's obambi? i'm asking, where is that kenyan fraud? everyone shows solidarity with poland, but i yet have to hear any news about a single word from the president of the united states of america, mr barack obama. obviously, something went wrong for them. they wouldn't mind telling us few more lies, like some warm words for polish people, if not something that has to make them choke at such attempt - behaviour of russians.

That's called information avoidance. You haven't read / heard anything from Obama because your Google is broken.

Quote from Saturday: “Today’s loss is devastating to Poland, to the United States, and to the world,” said a statement from U.S. President Barack Obama. “Today, there are heavy hearts across America. The United States cherishes its deep and abiding bonds with the people of Poland."

Source here...

Birther bait on another thread.

reply to post by odyseusz


all i can say about your logic... EPIC FAIL.

i guess you've forgot that i am living in poland, and - believe it or not - i do understand the situation. putin and others could react differently - they could. they didn't. that's what matters. and while it has some historical background, it's simply about acting like humans. that's something that USA just didn't expect from their NWO counterpart, imho.

so polish. OUR history, OUR country, OUR understanding, everyone else knows nothing. guess what... you're wrong. even obambi, with the amount of advisors he has, could predict how russia may behave - and probably did. he just didn't predict, that russian prime minister, russian president, and russian media, will go that route as well - and that's what matters on this stage. they don't give a f... if some ivan in the pub tells some polish people that he feels the same. but if putins says that, on TV, and millions are listening to him - that's entirely different situation.

reply to post by henieck


thanks for the info on the poles , I hope the civilian pilots have a better attitude.This mentallity of not been seen as weak,incompetent or to afraid to speak up when things are not right(first officer intimidated by his superior) has caused crashes in the past but i thought it was a thing of the past .Its all speculation at the moment .i will wait for the CVR and FDR if its ever made public(doubt it) .Why doesnt government of poland use boeing or airbus im sure they could borrow some from LOT.

reply to post by odyseusz

Originally posted by odyseusz
The last think I can believe now is that this was accident.

Because of the incredible symbolic coincidence the emotions here in Polland would reach the top.

This tragedy looks exactly like the Russians put their fingerprint on it. After IIWW they assassinated in airplane accident polish prime minister Wladyslaw Sikorsky which strongly trays to prove that murders in Katyn was made by Russians.

In Katyn Russians killed over 20.000 of Poles from polish elites to avoid problems and easily introduce communism after WW2.

I am posting this to attempt to educate members to a brief, modern history of Poland.

It is fact that the Soviets killed Polish Military in the Katyn Forest during WW2(1940 to be exact in regards to year===The Great Patriotic War to the Russians). I will not debate on whether Sikorski was assassinated. On July 4, 1943 Sikorski died in an airplane crash over Gibraltar. Come to your own conclusions(everyone reading this).

Poland has had a long history of oppression by other nations. The first partition of Poland by Russia, Prussia, and Austria(Holy Roman Empire), on August 5, 1772, caused it to lose 1/3 of its territory and 1/2 its population. The second partition of Poland was carried through on January 23, 1793. This occurred due to the Poles creating a viable governmental constitution which the Russians would not accept. To prevent Russia from overrunning what remained of Poland, Prussia took part in the second partition. Less than 1/3 of what was Poland before the first partition existed as an "independent" state. The poles resisted this second partition, but were defeated. The third partition of Poland occurred on October 24, 1795. Poland vanished as a sovereign nation. Napoleon briefly established the Grand Duchy of Warsaw(1807-1813), but it collapsed after his invasion and retreat from Russia.

This continued until the end of WW1. Poland regained independence at the end of the war on November 3, 1918. Josef Pilsudski was the de facto leader of Poland after independence, though he ruled through figureheads. During the 1920's and 30's, Poland effectively became Fascist under Pilsudski, who died on May 12, 1935. He was succeeded by Edward Rydz-Smigly, an associate of the deceased. Poland's Fascist leaders assisted the Nazis in dismantling Czechoslovakia in the Munich Accord. However, Poland became the next target of the Nazi's.

I do not know of the history of Poland during Soviet rule. I am merely presenting these facts as a reference point. Surely, motivations and airplane crashes of the present are perhaps incited by the history of the past.

I will be looking into recent Polish history and politics. It may be prudent for other members to do so as well. Perhaps we might discover something that could be used as theoretical evidence in this issue.

However, I consider myself similar to Swedish Policy. Perpetual Neutrality seems to be an area of marginal safety and peaceful existence(Sweden has not been in an official declared war since Napoleonic times).

My only point in this thread is to consider the history of the nation and of the nations that at one time dominated it. Please keep in mind that my limited knowledge of this subject extends only to the immediate end of WW2. I would be happy to read information by members with more knowledge than I.

P.S. - If anyone knows of a reliable source of Polish history post WW2, please send me a U2U with the information!

I've heard rumors from friends I have who work in politics/intelligence in Europe that the film Kaczynski and his brother were in when they were little kids, The Two Who Stole The Moon, is literally loaded with Illuminati imagery and was used for programming. Wonder if this could have anything to do with his untimely demise (like JFK...keep him quiet and also serve as a warning to his brother). Also, who wants to take a bet that his brother won't be around this time next year?

"...Polish and Russian prosecutors read most of the information stored on the black boxes from the presidential plane, which crashed on Saturday in Smolensk - unofficially learned "Wprost". The final course of the talks of Polish pilots will be known within a few days. The Russians waited with the opening of black boxes for the arrival of Polish prosecutors..."
"...Preliminary studies suggest that the cause of the tragedy was not a machine malfunctions. Currently being considered for other factors that could cause an accident - human error or bad weather..."

Todays information from the polish info sites.

[edit on 12-4-2010 by STolarZ]

Originally posted by My_Reality
reply to post by odyseusz

 

Originally posted by odyseusz
The last think I can believe now is that this was accident.

Because of the incredible symbolic coincidence the emotions here in Polland would reach the top.

This tragedy looks exactly like the Russians put their fingerprint on it. After IIWW they assassinated in airplane accident polish prime minister Wladyslaw Sikorsky which strongly trays to prove that murders in Katyn was made by Russians.

In Katyn Russians killed over 20.000 of Poles from polish elites to avoid problems and easily introduce communism after WW2.

I am posting this to attempt to educate members to a brief, modern history of Poland.

It is fact that the Soviets killed Polish Military in the Katyn Forest during WW2(1940 to be exact in regards to year===The Great Patriotic War to the Russians). I will not debate on whether Sikorski was assassinated. On July 4, 1943 Sikorski died in an airplane crash over Gibraltar. Come to your own conclusions(everyone reading this).
....

It was my first reaction when we have no information yet. In emotions it could look like that but after I calm down and use a brain the reality looks not so spectacular to me. The only difference is that the rest of the people here still flow on their own fantasy.

To polish politics it doesn't change allot so even if that was assassination which I personalty don't believe it would change nothing. If there is a crime there have to be a motive. In most of the civilized countries we don't judge anybody without motive. It sounds logic for me and I can't find motive for anyone.

Russia and US agreed in start2 matter, the plan of putting anti missile shield in Poland has been abandoned by US so the key decisions has been made before. Nothing important for US and Russia depends on polish president, we have no great oil reserves , polish foreign politics was calm in the las two years and president has no power. The rest of the officials were instantly replaced by their deputy chosen former by them so this can not influence on the curse of military hq or national bank. Where is the motive if from tehnical point of view nothing would change? The real consequences are to emotions of ordinary people but even this would pass even if we are now depressed. Polish people have very thick skin in fact.



[edit on 12-4-2010 by odyseusz]

[edit on 12-4-2010 by odyseusz]

Now what I would say would be a bit controversial but you have to understand that if someone was beneficent of that catastrophe is in fact our government itself. I don't accuse them because it sound's unbelievable that our own politic would be able to do this but in fact our government with prime minister on top could get many advantage from that situation. It doesn't change anything in foreign politic because this was the same no matter of which party was ruling the county but it change allot in our internal affairs. Influence of our opposition was reduced, main opponent Lech Kaczynski in next presidential election was eliminated. Present acting president is from the government party now so the prime minister don't need to afraid that someone would stop his decisions anymore. The main opposition party PIS is in mourning because the head of this party was a twin brother of the president and it is even speculation that he would withdraw from the politic. This tragedy had cleared many cases for the government party. They have now free hand to do what they want but it still gives nothing to Russia, European Union or US. This is how the situation looks like and I think it is one of the most important post in this thread because this highlight the real situation after that plane crash.

[edit on 12-4-2010 by odyseusz]