Clinically dead boy 'saw grandma in heaven'

Umm, 3hours? Im not sure thats possible.......
I know a guy that was clinically dead for 20 minutes (Car crash) and he can hardly speak to this day.
When your brain doesnt get oxygen, many parts of it can die. (LOL sorry for my "Medical Lingo")

[edit on 9-4-2010 by freebourn]

Originally posted by 547000
If the TV is broken does that mean the signal is broken too? Same could be argued for consciousness, because we don't know whether consciousness exists in the brain or not. Taking drugs could be like like hitting you TV with a baseball bat. Just because it physically can't function normally doesn't mean you destroyed the signal.

This is a most excellent point that gets to the heart of the matter. Either consciousness is produced by biological components or those biological components serve to facilitate the "signal" that is consciousness. This is the question, and it comes down a question of philosophy, not hard science at this point. There have been some advancements in the quest for AI, but scientist have not been able to reproduce consciousness yet. If they someday do, it will ironically support Kaytagg's assumptions, while simultaneously refuting this assertion of his:

Yes it does. You can't have consciousness without a brain -- although, I bet you don't even believe that.

Unless he will begin to equivocate again and claim that a hard drive is a brain, if science is able to reproduce the conscious state, then this will effectively prove that it is not the brain that is causing consciousness but something else. But at least what will be proven is that consciousness is not some form of dualism, but indeed monism, and more specifically consciousness would then fall into the field of physicalism.

For the dualist, the issue becomes the mind/body dichotomy, but physicalism will insist that everything that exists does not extend beyond its physical properties. The problem with this belief at this point is that there is no where near a consensus on how we would measure consciousness, and thus we can't define it in a scientific sense. The primary issue then becomes whether or not consciousness is a by product of complex intelligence, i.e., the brain, and consciousness is merely emergent property, or something else all together.

There is not a single neuron in the brain that alone possess "intelligence" as we understand it, and physicalism would dictate that even so, when there are billions of these neurons combined that some how creates a mind with "intelligence." Whether one is a dualist or a physicalist, it should not be in doubt at this point that it appears the brain is more than the sum of its parts.

If physicalism is the correct view, then the problem of AI is not in duplicating consciousness, but effectively creating a complex system of "intelligence" that will at some point produce the emergent property of consciousness. On the other hand, if dualism is correct, the problem of AI gets even harder as it becomes necessary to ask if it is even possible to computationally define and simulate consciousness, and perhaps there should be a distinction made between consciousness and "intelligence". Is consciousness necessary for AI? Do all intelligent systems necessarily display consciousness?

Then there is the problem of subjective phenomenal experience which very well may be impossible to compute and simulate. Consider the phenomenon of color blindness. A color blind person can study up on the color purple and learn all there is to know about the color purple, but still will never know what purple looks like, and no amount of factual data learned by that person will change that. Factual data, is of course, how computers are programmed, so if consciousness is a part of subjective experience, then it is highly unlikely that we can duplicate or simulate consciousness in AI.

It has always been a fascinating debate for me, and this thread has been most fun.

Originally posted by Darkrunner
The man who says there is definitely no god is just as idiotic as the man who says there is.

Neither have proof one way or the other.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Darkrunner]

What part of "I have experienced the ND experience, and I promise you God exists" do you not believe?

What do I gain by making something up? I saw the throne, the light that sits on the throne, the colors above the throne, that I can only explain as jewels.

The deceased people, who were very much alive, were to the left (my right) of the throne. There was a lamb to the right. I saw my deceased grandmother, father. It was a wonderful place. The feeling was like all problems, all worries were absent, and I was enveloped in a feeling of love and peace, floating, literally.

God exists.

reply to post by 547000

Originally posted by Kaytagg
I've heard that when you die, your brain floods with '___', which is a hallucinogenic chemical that is also released during REM sleep.

So, he probably did see his grandmother, in the same kind of way I've "gone to school wearing just my underwear" kind of way -- know what I mean?

'___' doesnt explain some of the things my grandmother told me happened to her after a car crash she had had...i too was skeptical about this sort of thing and said one day that id only believe it if someone i REALLY trusted told me they had had such an experience...my grandmother then just turned to me and said 'well...ive had such an experience'..she then went on to tell me about what happened to her..and its amazing..she also had incredible ghost type experiences that two other members of my family witnessed..things flying across her living room etc..

well..i say '___' doesnt explain these things..it may do obviously but '___' doesnt just cause imaginings as the scientists would have us believe......it may obviously do something to the brain that allows us to have a peek through a curtain so to speak..but the experiences are real..whatever real is...

[edit on 9-4-2010 by alienesque]

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

'___' doesn't explain the Pamela Reynolds case

I'd like to interject, before all the atheist nuts move in for the kill.

=)

Riiiight, us athiests are the nuts for believing a perfectly sensible medical explanation for NDEs, over the big beardy man in the sky sending this kids Nan to send him back to Earth...

Us Athiests... Crazy people!

Originally posted by nik1halo

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

'___' doesn't explain the Pamela Reynolds case

I'd like to interject, before all the atheist nuts move in for the kill.

=)

Riiiight, us athiests are the nuts for believing a perfectly sensible medical explanation for NDEs, over the big beardy man in the sky sending this kids Nan to send him back to Earth...

Us Athiests... Crazy people!

im an atheist and i believe in NDEs....why do some people thing only a christian or muslim can believe in such 'magic'...?..what does a kid seeing his grandmother somewhere have to do with a god?

[edit on 9-4-2010 by alienesque]

[edit on 9-4-2010 by alienesque]

reply to post by alienesque


Hey, i have no problem with anyone believing anything they want, I just find it annoying that as an athiest, I was labelled a "nut" for not believing myself.

I don't see myself as being nutty for believing something that makes logical sense and someone can show me evidence of over someone elses unprovable and fantastical beliefs.

As I said on a similar thread yesterday, I have died myself on the operating table for ~6 minutes. I saw and felt nothing and was completely oblivious to the fact until I was told, so from the facts I have at hand, I do not believe.

Originally posted by nik1halo
reply to post by alienesque

 

Hey, i have no problem with anyone believing anything they want, I just find it annoying that as an athiest, I was labelled a "nut" for not believing myself.

I don't see myself as being nutty for believing something that makes logical sense and someone can show me evidence of over someone elses unprovable and fantastical beliefs.

As I said on a similar thread yesterday, I have died myself on the operating table for ~6 minutes. I saw and felt nothing and was completely oblivious to the fact until I was told, so from the facts I have at hand, I do not believe.

..yep..i get you...the idea that not believing in some of the things in the bible is crazy..is..erm...crazy..

Originally posted by Darkrunner
The man who says there is definitely no god is just as idiotic as the man who says there is.

Neither have proof one way or the other.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Darkrunner]

I've had experiences which assure me God exists and Jesus was real.

reply to post by 911stinks

God exists.

,
who's god, yours or someone else's, , please explain

wally

[edit on 9-4-2010 by auswally]

reply to post by auswally


I think its wrong to call it God.
I personally call it "The Creator"

And in my opinion The Creator, does exist.

the word "God" is full of idiotic opinions as to what god likes or dislikes, like he's some kind of father figure watching over us.

And in that sense I totally get atheists.

Our Creator, wants us to be happy and love each other.

Nothing more.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
I've heard that when you die, your brain floods with '___', which is a hallucinogenic chemical that is also released during REM sleep.

So, he probably did see his grandmother, in the same kind of way I've "gone to school wearing just my underwear" kind of way -- know what I mean?

That explaination only works on some cases. There are others where the persons brain is cryogenically frozen and drained of all blood for risky brain surgery and they still have vivid experiences. The brain is just stopped, and doesn't get a chance to release anything or react to anything.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Risen]

NDE's are a result of the body dying, the lack of oxygen and a specific mixture of chemical processes cause them. I have never seen any evidence to prove they are more than that and absolutely no explanation as to why most people have no such experiences, if floating off to magical land is what happens when you die then why does it not happen to everyone? I have a close friend that died and was resuscitated, he had no NDE...does he not have a soul? Like i said, i believe it is a very specific mix of things that cause them hence not everyone experiences them.

Consciousness exists on multiple levels. Drugs obviously can affect the thought processes, but the higher levels are not affected. One can become "detached" and find some amusement at the workings of the brain, if they are capable of tapping into higher consciousness.
Trying to reach a nonbeliever without their consent can be frustrating. In fact, it is not clear to me that everyone will in fact move out of the murky low levels of consciousness even when they die.

reply to post by Solomons


That's obviously why it didn't happen to me, I have no soul!!

Oh that's right, I sold it to tha Debil so's I could play ma geeetar real purdy!

Why does everyone have to have the God argument? Just because the kid saw his grandma, doesn't mean it was in heaven...but then again maybe it was. Maybe it was a hallucination...maybe it wasn't. The thing is nobody knows because there is no way to know. Debating the possibilities is one thing, but ARGUING whether or not there is a God is completely pointless. Because when it comes to that topic, people have their beliefs and they won't budge.

Originally posted by spearhead

Clinically dead boy 'saw grandma in heaven'

au.news.yahoo.com

A three-year-old boy brought back from the dead after his heart stopped beating for three hours has told how he allegedly saw his great-grandmother in heaven.

The youngster - who is named only as Paul - claimed he met his relative and she sent him back to Earth.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Yes, this happens all the time with NDE's.

I was in quite the slumber as many entities on Earth are at this time until I had an NDE that "woke" me up.

Without going into to much details I was basically dead losing fatal amounts of blood. Within what seemed like an instance I was looking down at my body with fire men and paramedics surrounding what I figured was only a tool to experience the external world.

I had no sadness, no fear, but all I felt was pure and unconditional unfathomable Love. As I stared at my lifeless pale body I begin to move fast, very fast, as I moved through what seemed like a tunnel that opened above my body I begin to be surrounded by Light, and even more awkward it was if all that there was to be known was already known by me from the point that I was aware there was foreverness in all directions. Then in an instant memories started flashing before my mind, I was going through my entire life instantaneously, what's even more odd is that I was every emotion, every connection. Everyone that I talked too, affected with my actions etc... we're all connected, we're all the Creator that is the big secret and I kept that with me and cannot believe I had forgotten.

Then it faded away like a movie screen disintegrating into Light and all around me was Light, but this Light was not something that I could see but more like I could feel and sense with my being and in this way "see", this Light was Love and it washed through my being in an Infinite manner. Time seemed to be inexistent it was as if the very very very present moment was all that is.

After what seemed like an eternity everything went black and I peered through my familiar eyelids to see my mother crying and I begin to get feeling back in my hands and felt my mother squeezing my right.

All in all I was supposed to be dead, and I don't remember what deal I made exactly but what I do know is I am not supposed to remember because if we we're to remember everything before birth then this all would be too easy and what would be learned about ourself? I have meditated almost daily since this and I have remembered all though slowly why I chose to incarnate here.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
Nice story...you can read thousands of NDE's on the site below. There is always new stuff.

www.nderf.org...

Wow! - That is like the MUFON of NDE's!!

The questions are very objective and do not biasly lead the witness.

Thanks for the tip - I find NDE's to be definitely worth serious investigation - I'd love to see a serious statistical analysis of all things NDE related for the top commonalities in the various reports.

Originally posted by Solomons
NDE's are a result of the body dying, the lack of oxygen and a specific mixture of chemical processes cause them. I have never seen any evidence to prove they are more than that and absolutely no explanation as to why most people have no such experiences, if floating off to magical land is what happens when you die then why does it not happen to everyone? I have a close friend that died and was resuscitated, he had no NDE...does he not have a soul?

Like i said, i believe it is a very specific mix of things that cause them hence not everyone experiences them.

And if it is a basic biological process...then I have the same question you do...why doesn't everyone have one?

If it is a chemical reaction of '___'...why doesn't everyone experience it? If the lack of oxygen causes this...why doesn't everyone experience it?

It doesn't seem like a very "scientific" explaination if only a few experience it, but it is a basic biological process.