Clinically dead boy 'saw grandma in heaven'

reply to post by Kaytagg


Well..again you are making statements as fact..when they are more of an opinion.

I'm going to have to ask you to prove that in fact the consciousness is the output of the brain. And then again you can go pick up yet another nobel prize...you are really getting quite a collection of them tonight.



I'll check back tomorrow...I'm tired...and my consciousness needs sleep. I would say my brain does...but it will actually be very active while I'm sleeping...so it isn't really going to be resting much...but "something" will be resting

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Nope, it's proven. Take some drugs, and magically your consciousness changes.

That's not correlation, that's CAUSATION.

There isn't some secret compartment in your brain where "the consciousness" is stores -- a bit like the smoke monster from Lost. Doesn't work that way. I've been trying to tell you that all night.

If you stick a needle into the brain with an electrode on it, you can disable parts of the brain and change somebodies consciousness as well. And not just in fun, debilitating ways, but in ways that change somebodies personality, or sense of moral judgement.


You're invoking something magical about the whole process -- something you call a "consciousness," as if it exists somewhere -- independent of the physical brain. That's nonsense.

reply to post by Kaytagg

I don't believe in an afterlife, and I feel sorry for people who do, because I think they simply have not found a way to deal with the deaths of loved ones yet, so they invent some insane, alter-reality where death is just an illusion, or whatever.

I have just imagined this guy sh^tting his pants when he realizes there just maybe something else when he dies. I wish you all the best mate

.

I can see how processes in the dying brain might induce a feeling of euphoria or tunnel-vision with a light at the end, but I always find that explanation lacking when it comes to seeing visions of people and places. Why is it that people only report seeing friends and family that have passed on? Wouldn't it be more natural to see visions of people that you see and interact with every day, if it was only due to chemicals in the brain? I mean, surely you'd have visions of your spouse or significant other more than a grandmother that might have died decades ago when you were a child or before you were even born.

That is a classic comment, nice one , ya even got the nay sayer stumped

Wally

reply to post by auswally


wally, it's not that I don't want there to be something else when I die. Who doesn't want that? Of course I want to live forever in some kind of paradise, and see all my loved ones who have passed away, and meet the great thinkers in history, and be able to learn the secrets about the universe, etc.

But you have to separate those petty childish desires with reality.. reality does not show any evidence of supernature, an afterlife, god, spirits, ghosts, souls, etc. This is all complete nonsense..

reply to post by Kaytagg

Take some drugs, and magically your consciousness changes.

Do you see the irony in this statement? You seem to want to flip flop back on forth on magic, don't you?

Meditation also alters consciousness, but this does not prove that consciousness is not biological, any more than the use of certain drugs proves consciousness is biological. Our consciousness is affected by many things, but that effect, does not mean that consciousness itself is the product of those things.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Yes it does. You can't have consciousness without a brain -- although, I bet you don't even believe that.


Im going to bed

reply to post by Kaytagg


wow plants have consciousness ... you can kill a plant just by energy or bad thoughts ... or not ... something is definitely weird

I do not believe consciousness is chemical.... no, nope, no I don't.
A chemical reaction is not a continuous event such as our consciousness.

Reaction

The distinction between action and reaction is purely arbitrary: any one of the two forces can be considered an action, in which case the other (corresponding) force automatically becomes its associated reaction.

Chemical Reaction

A chemical reaction is a process that leads to the transformation of one set of chemical substances to another.

If consciousness had something to do with chemicals in the brain it would be 'chemical fusion' or 'chemical fission'!
And.....I do not believe chemicals can explain the complexity of our ability to conscieve all manner of things!


[edit on 9/4/10 by spearhead]

reply to post by Kaytagg

wally, it's not that I don't want there to be something else when I die. Who doesn't want that? Of course I want to live forever in some kind of paradise, and see all my loved ones who have passed away, and meet the great thinkers in history, and be able to learn the secrets about the universe, etc.

So let me get this right you are a athestist in the true sense. you beleive in Jack. because for the life of me man your post above isnt saying that

I was like you . glad i am not now. i guess that comes with experince. and i too havent got Faith ( religion) like most, but i have my personal faith in what i believe in, science is not going to explain it, ever

Wally

If the TV is broken does that mean the signal is broken too? Same could be argued for consciousness, because we don't know whether consciousness exists in the brain or not. Taking drugs could be like like hitting you TV with a baseball bat. Just because it physically can't function normally doesn't mean you destroyed the signal.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
I've heard that when you die, your brain floods with '___', which is a hallucinogenic chemical that is also released during REM sleep.

So, he probably did see his grandmother, in the same kind of way I've "gone to school wearing just my underwear" kind of way -- know what I mean?

So... hmm. I`m really trying not to sound condescending or pretenscious. Ok I`ll just say it. Have you not heard that there have been tons of people who have had a near death/clinical death experience who have reported seeing dead relatives? And if so, is it your contention that ALL these people just HAPPENED to have similiar hallucinations? Is there a chemical out there that will SPECIFICALLY cause me to hallucinate going to school wearing only my undies? And if you ever find some special blend of '___' that makes you think you are surrounded by beautiful women from around the world who wish to physically express their intense love for you, please do be a good chap and pick some of that up for me. Hey don`t judge me! Life is short, the world is gonna end soon, I`ll probably never acheive my goal of sharing my love with all the different kinds of women of the world, and my gf is not the sharing type... Guys, don`t ever think that you will be able to "make your gf become open minded". No matter HOW MUCH attention you shower on her and no matter HOW MUCH you try to boost her confidence, she will ALWAYS think that if she allows a menege trois or menege quatro, that you will just leave her for one of the other girls! ...ALWAYS! OK so, as I`ve plainly laid it out for all to see, and again no offense intended toward you, it`s painfully clear that you have not completely thought out this "hallucinagenic chemical" theory of yours. Either that, or you simply have not done enough research in the right places. I mean, you can do mountains of research but if you`re not researching the right sources, well that really doesn`t do you any good, now does it?

Originally posted by Kaytagg
reply to post by auswally

 

wally, it's not that I don't want there to be something else when I die. Who doesn't want that? Of course I want to live forever in some kind of paradise, and see all my loved ones who have passed away, and meet the great thinkers in history, and be able to learn the secrets about the universe, etc.

But you have to separate those petty childish desires with reality.. reality does not show any evidence of supernature, an afterlife, god, spirits, ghosts, souls, etc. This is all complete nonsense..

I`m just curious, what do YOU think happens after you die? Everything just shuts down and you no longer see feel hear touch taste think smell anything? Kinda like when you shut you tv or computer off? Or are you saying "we don`t know and there`s no way to know and this is why I have a problem with discussing the possibilities". I personally don`t know, but I have heard a lot of similar sounding stories from people who have actually died, and I guess I trust witness testimony a little more than those who claim to know the truth while having no good evidence. So while I can`t say for sure, I think it`s fair to say we should try to glean as much info as possible from the only source we have on the subject, which would be witness testimony and the medical records proving they were infact dead clinically during the time their claims took place. But I`ll ask you again as I genuinely am curious on this topic and would love to hear your perspective as I have no doubt there will be something to be learned in reading your answer. god bless you mate we can all benefit from a difference in opinion, never forget that.

I have seen the other side. It truly is a wonderful thing. Changed my life.

I actually look forward to death, but I also realize how important life is, and the we all have a purpose, if we choose to follow God's instructions.

Vitals can get so low that the monitor(s) cannot pick them up in some cases. When nothing shows up on the monitor, it may look like they've passed, but they have not actually passed yet. Mind playing tricks as it gets low on oxygen. Near death. But not dead.

Originally posted by Blueracer
Vitals can get so low that the monitor(s) cannot pick them up in some cases. When nothing shows up on the monitor, it may look like they've passed, but they have not actually passed yet. Mind playing tricks as it gets low on oxygen. Near death. But not dead.

Once again, science trying to explain away God, instead of trying to understand Him.

Yes, in the endtimes they will harden their hearts against Him

Originally posted by 911stinks

Originally posted by Blueracer
Vitals can get so low that the monitor(s) cannot pick them up in some cases. When nothing shows up on the monitor, it may look like they've passed, but they have not actually passed yet. Mind playing tricks as it gets low on oxygen. Near death. But not dead.

Once again, science trying to explain away God, instead of trying to understand Him.

Yes, in the endtimes they will harden their hearts against Him

Not true. What I stated goes hand in hand with what the Bible says:
www.watchtower.org...

Read it if you will. But I present my source.

Honestly...The brain dying makes WAY more sense than '___' getting released. Ask any doctor or neuroscientist, and I assure you they will tell you, you are wrong. '___' released in your brain while dying is just a theory at the most. Nothing else. Stick with the lack of oxygen or the dying brain theory. If you actually study '___' instead of getting it out of one book (Spirit Molecule) you will realise '___' is not the main reason for NDEs. It might contribute, but it is not the only reason.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
I've heard that when you die, your brain floods with '___', which is a hallucinogenic chemical that is also released during REM sleep.

So, he probably did see his grandmother, in the same kind of way I've "gone to school wearing just my underwear" kind of way -- know what I mean?

Do yo run very slow, as in cant? I do.. I love the undie dreams.. they get naughty.. I used to fancy my teacher.. hehe

but I hate not being able to run..

(typoes)

[edit on 9/4/2010 by badw0lf]

reply to post by doctor j and inmate c5779

I agree with this. From the '___' experiences I've read about, they seem to be really strange experiences, as expected with a hallucinogenic drug lol. They're not your average "NDE" If '___' was the explanation, you wouldn't expect NDEers to have such similar experiences.




[edit on 9-4-2010 by cLOUDDEAD]

The man who says there is definitely no god is just as idiotic as the man who says there is.

Neither have proof one way or the other.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Darkrunner]