Clinically dead boy 'saw grandma in heaven'

reply to post by Kaytagg

I can assure you one thing -- death is real, and when you die, you don't go anywhere

Oops...there you go again making claims that you have not proved.


I'm gonna have to ask you to provide proof for you claim.

Or do you make it a habit to go about spouting out claims that you have absolutely no proof for???

That doesn't seem very scientific.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I was in the room when my grandfather died.. he didn't go anywhere. What more proof do you want? Or is there an epidemic I don't know about, concerning bodies going missing after death?

reply to post by Kaytagg


I don't believe anyone is talking about the physical body going anywhere...and you know that.

You just have nothing to back up your claims with...so you make more ridiculous claims.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you don't have all the answers? Do you see that as a negative? Do you honestly think you do have all the answers?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


While I have much respect for your intellectual capacity, it is rare I agree with you. So, what a true pleasure it is to be in agreement with you on this issue. I would also suggest that it was not the first sentence of that paragraph you just quoted from the other poster but this:

and your consciousness shuts down and the mechanisms that allowed you to think/feel/love/etc all stop working, and you go back to being the constituent parts you came from -- carbon atoms and water molecules, mostly.

that lacks scientific evidence. No one even knows where consciousness is, or even if it is something that resides in the brain, so it is an outlandish claim, at this stage in the understanding of consciousness, to assert that consciousness "shuts down". Further, it is unclear what mechanisms that poster is referring to when stating that these so called, and presumably biological, mechanisms "allow" us to think/feel/love/etc.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


You think your consciousness isn't related to your physical body?

If you think this, you're completely delusional.. But, we have drugs that can fix that (ironically)...


... (it's ironic because the very fact that there are drugs which alter your deluded consciousness proves that consciousness is simply a chemical reaction that takes place in the physical universe, not in some alter-reality or magical something or other that "defies the laws of science.")


I don't know everything.. that sort of goes without saying, really.

reply to post by Kaytagg


What drugs specifically are you referring to that would suppress the belief that consciousness is more than biological, I wonder?

reply to post by Kaytagg

You think your consciousness isn't related to your physical body?

I'm willing to admit that I don't know. I have seen plenty of things that seem to suggest that consciousness MAY not be seated completely in the brain. But I don't know...and I'm ok with that.

If you think this, you're completely delusional

Well I wouldn't say completely...but I have my momenets

it's ironic because the very fact that there are drugs which alter your deluded consciousness proves that consciousness is simply a chemical reaction that takes place in the physical universe, not in some alter-reality or magical something or other that "defies the laws of science."

You know what else is "ironic"...that the placebo effect is real and scientifically verifiable...but would suggest the brain is not 100% chemical reactions.

You have yet to prove any of the claims you have made...why is that?

reply to post by Kaytagg


I have to ask.

When have you had a near death experience. By that I mean died but was brought back to life.

When you experience this let me know your thought on this topic.

you know the fued here is completely flawed! You will never convince the other!
No one will know the answer until their time comes to pass! And even then you may not know it!

*rebirth
*reincarnation
*heaven
*hell
*the void
*eternity
*nothingness

you will never know! But that could be the meaning of life...

[edit on 9/4/10 by spearhead]

reply to post by spearhead


'___' at work

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I shouldn't have said it that way, because there probably isn't a drug that does specifically that.. I just wanted a convenient segway into my point about drugs effecting consciousness There are pills which are suppose to treat delusions, though.. don't know if they necessarily treat belief in an afterlife, or if anybody would really want to "cure" that in the first place. It would seem like a low priority -- besides, it's hard to call somebody crazy for believing something that most people seem to believe.. to me, that just says most people are crazy (or really really stupid)

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


are you suggesting that the placebo effect "suggests" that the brain "isn't 100% chemical reactions?"

Originally posted by Kaytagg
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

are you suggesting that the placebo effect "suggests" that the brain "isn't 100% chemical reactions?"

Well when I said:

would suggest the brain is not 100% chemical reactions

I wasn't speaking in code...so yes I believe that is what I meant.

With the placebo effect...the brain produces the effect of the "chemical reaction" without the "chemical" actually being in the system. So yes...I would say it "SUGGESTS" (not "proves") that the brains function isn't 100% based off of chemical reaction.

reply to post by Kaytagg


There are all sorts of external forces that affect consciousness. This does not mean that consciousness is biological, anymore than it means it is.

We just, quite simply, don't know enough about consciousness, (in a scientific understanding of the word), to make any assertions about it. Theories yes, bold claims pretending to be fact, no.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


but that has nothing to do with how the brain functions; it's well known that the brain functions with chemical reactions. What's absolutely never been shown is that the brain is somehow "above" chemical reactions, and that it works regardless of neurotransmitters being present in synapses..

The placebo effect doesn't mean your body/mind is healing itself, it simply means the symptoms were hallucinations/delusions, or that the idea that the patient has improved is a hallucination/delusion. It has nothing to do with whether or not the brain functions using chemistry.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


You can put somebody in an MIR and ask them questions, and watch different parts of the brain light up.

You can cut the top of their heads off, while they're awake, and stick a really tiny needle with an electrode on the end of it INTO the brain, shock various parts, and turn on/off different things.. Ability to remain conscious/rational included.

Just recently somebody posted an article on ATS about a study that found that there is a little "moral compass" part of your brain behind and underneath your right ear -- and that scientists could use a strong magnetic field to locally disable that region of the brain, causing people to lose their moral compass.



That all tells me that the brain is 100% natural and chemical reactions. What has never even had a shred of scientific proof is that the brain ISN'T these things.

reply to post by Kaytagg

The placebo effect doesn't mean your body/mind is healing itself, it simply means the symptoms were hallucinations/delusions, or that the idea that the patient has improved is a hallucination/delusion. It has nothing to do with whether or not the brain functions using chemistry.

Well...I guess all that is left is for you to publish your paper on proving how the placebo effect works and go collect your nobel prize.


You claim those that believe in an afterlife are living in a fantasy land...and yet you continue to make statements of facts that are not proven. So in a way...you are living in your own little fantasy world.

I'm not going to try to explain how the placebo effect works...because I don't know...but we both agree it works...and it works in the same way as if the chemicals were actually in the body, when they are not. So what "chemicals" are "reacting" if it is all "chemical reactions"? That is all I was making a point about.

reply to post by Kaytagg

That all tells me that the brain is 100% natural and chemical reactions. What has never even had a shred of scientific proof is that the brain ISN'T these things.

I haven't seen anywhere in this thread any assertions that the brain isn't natural. It is this sort of misdirection that tends to support OutKast's charges that you know you have no hard data to back up your claims and can only offer evidence in the way of correlation, but correlation is not causation.

What the heck? Not this debate again!!!!

I don't care what you believe either side.

Being conscious of environment has been well documented and PROVEN. And before you say it was all in the operating room, NO, in some cases it was OUTSIDE the room.

Naturalistic explanation or not, it has NOT been answered.

So stop this petty argument. It has been covered over and over again.

And yeah like the other posters said... being an atheist DOES NOT mean disbelieving in the existence of the afterlife! It just means the disbelief in a god!

reply to post by Kaytagg

That all tells me that the brain is 100% natural and chemical reactions.

Well we know it isn't 100% chemical...since even your own post points out that a large part of it is electrical.

So we know that it is partially chemical, partially electrical, and I'm inclined to believe it is partially "something" else...although what that is I'm not sure.

How does one form an original thought? One not retrieved from memory? It would have to involve something that creates something "new" in the brain. Is the simple cause of a mis-fired in the electrical system...is it a chemical reaction that shouldn't have taken place? Or is it something else?

If it is just a mis-fire or a rouge chemical reaction...is all original thought just an accident? That isn't something I can get myself to believe.