"Then God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image, and in OUR likeness'"

Originally posted by Sigismundus

(we also see the Holy Spirit referred to as the 'mother' or in the female grammatical formsin the Alexandrian Christian gnostic texts -- and we even read in the Gospel of the Hebrews quoted by Origen and others (dated c. 180 CE)

'And Iesous said, just now the Holy Spirit my MOTHER took me by one of my hairs and led me to the great Mount Tabor !')

Which is quite interesting, since the female aspect to God to the Gnostics is often refered to as Gr. Σοφíα (Sophia), "Wisdom". She was also seen as the σύζυγος (syzygos) of the Mesjiach Jesjuah or in other words, the Bride of Jesjuah. And through applying the traditional Hebrew Atbash substitution scifer, replacing the first letter for the last, the second for the second to last and so on, the word שופיא (Sophia) becomes בפומת (Baphomet). Baphomet was the very name of the goddess-idol claimed to be worshipped by the Templars when the Catholic lead Inquisission against the Templars layed the Order desolate in the early 14th century.

Seeing how "Holy Spirit" may infact be a poetic title for "Divine Wisdom", as seen in John 1 where the primordeal "Logos" (lit. "Word", but means in reality "Wisdom" or "Teaching", ie. "Divine Prophecy") was brought into reality in the birth of Jesjuah ha Mesjiach, and comparing that to how the synoptic Gospels explain how Jesjuah ha Mesjiach was seeded by the Holy Spirit. -- Is it possible that "Mother Mary" (Ancient Eg. MRY - Beloved, Heb. מרים - Maryām, of differing interpretations), Gr. Σοφíα - "Sophia" and Heb. Atbash of the former, "Baphomet" have been used as code for "the Holy Spirit" alltogether?

It's also quite interesting that Mount Tabor occurs in Judges chapter 4 when Jael, the woman of the Kenite Heber, kills the Canaanite general Sisera. This is one of the greatest Hebrew heroins, and she is named in the same chapter as Deborah, one of the other Hebrew heroins.

[edit on 16/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Hydroman


There was no ice age. Where do you see it written in scripture that God created an ice age? You don't. That was mans way of taking God out.... to explain what happened.

In the beginning those people lived a very long time. 400 or more or less years they were quite experienced in how to survive. Also there were animals in the beginning that could speak with a human voice you might consider them dinosaurs but they all were just animals. God destroyed these animals that could speak. Most people only know of the serpent who could speak who was tempted by Lucifer. You would probably think of him as a dinosaur also. Flavius Josephus was one that wrote about these animals. Besides the Flood at the time of Noah would have destroyed the rest of those animals/dinosaurs.

What are you suppose to learn from these animals that could speak?
Animals are not to have any type of human/man parts, origins, they are to be separate from man. God saved the animals during the flood, right? So what have you been doing in your labs? Creating hybrid beings??? This puts man on a lower level (your creation) so then man is not made in the image of God.

Originally posted by Katie
There was no ice age. Where do you see it written in scripture that God created an ice age? You don't. That was mans way of taking God out.... to explain what happened.

Where do you see it written that I said anything about an ice age? But maybe there was a meteor impact that caused the catastrophe?

Originally posted by Katie
In the beginning those people lived a very long time. 400 or more or less years they were quite experienced in how to survive. Also there were animals in the beginning that could speak with a human voice you might consider them dinosaurs but they all were just animals. God destroyed these animals that could speak. Most people only know of the serpent who could speak who was tempted by Lucifer. You would probably think of him as a dinosaur also. Flavius Josephus was one that wrote about these animals. Besides the Flood at the time of Noah would have destroyed the rest of those animals/dinosaurs.

What are you suppose to learn from these animals that could speak?
Animals are not to have any type of human/man parts, origins, they are to be separate from man. God saved the animals during the flood, right? So what have you been doing in your labs? Creating hybrid beings??? This puts man on a lower level (your creation) so then man is not made in the image of God.

Now, let me turn table on you.....where do you see in scripture that animals that we consider dinosaurs, besides the serpent that was possessed, could speak? And, why did he create them so they can speak?

I don't know what they do in labs. Never been in one.

Did god save the animals in the flood? If so, what happened to the Mammoth, sabretooth tiger, and various other animals that no longer exist today? Did he put them on the ark on to allow them to go extinct a little while later? Good plan!

[edit on 17-4-2010 by Hydroman]

Originally posted by Katie
reply to post by Hydroman

 

There was no ice age. Where do you see it written in scripture that God created an ice age?

Where in the Scriptures do you see God creating the Aardvark? Where was there ever mentioned a Tsunami or a meteor impact? Are you claiming there has never been any ice ages here on Earth? That's a little over the top for me to handle.... The geological age we are currently living in is actually called "the Small Ice Age".....

I would suggest an alternate theory. In our culture (middle eastern) you use plural as a form of respect. (to elders for example)

That is the problem with translation of scriptures such as Bible from Hebrew, or Qur'aan from Arabic.

For example:

My aunt calls, and says in our language: "How are you?"

And I reply, "Good, thank you. And how are all of you?"

I only really mean her, but it can be taken in the plural as well.

It's a cultural thing. It doesn't translate well. So, no, this question of God speaking in plural only came about after the translations to other languages who don't have a similar culture.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
reply to post by okbmd

 

Infact, the oldest living religion, Hinduism introduced the Trinity, the Catholic Church borrowed it together with the Rosary and many other things we believe is Catholic.

The Vedic tradition discribes highly developed civilizations and maybe hundreds of thousands of years before our own,....

Now, This is part of the Problem being discussed.

Genesis 1:1 predates all of your observed and noted remarks.

While I agree with the Vedic and Hindu remarks, this is ,from my perspective, the real problem.

That problem is the Lack of Creativity, in dealing with the Fallen.

As I noted earlier, the Fall occured long before Genesis 1:2. It causes what the Vedic expressed in their traditions.

Azazel, (Funny Moniker oh Fallen one, Taught Metalsmithing to Tubal didn''t you, you naughty devil), is also correct in the various applications of the same thing. The Numerology of the 3's.

But these are a COPY. It isn't something unique to these Early Cultures.

Satan, the Fallen, Lucifer, or what ever you wish to affix for a Tag to describe these entities (ie Aliens) are only promoting or directing the spotlight of a "PROGRAM" already in Progress, from the Creator to themselves. THEY become/became the god or diety desiring worship, apposed to the CREATOR, which was the Fall, if I am not mistaken.

Even the Patheon of the gods of Greece and Rome bear similiar structures of the same form of worship and authority.

So, when presented with the premise that the Bible is discussing events, "Lifted" out of earlier forms of worship is a little misleading.

Our friend Locoman brought this forth in a very impressive work to detail the timeline actually expressed within the "Bible" referencing scripture to note this for others who have not previously considered this fully.

So, with this said, I would suggest, we even see a stronger arguement to support what the Catholic Church used to envision a Trinity in the premise of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. IT is the basis of Most forms of worship on the planet, simply due to those who placed themselves in that "Spot Light" all those years ago.

Ciao

Shane

P.S. Do not misunderstand my single encouraging remarks about the Catholic Church as a support of all their achievements, (if I may suggest they could be described as thus), since I have a great distain for the manner inwhich they have lost the "Mission Statement" and become a god/deity of their own.

P.S.S. I made a reference to a matter I have little understanding of, yet realize the fact of it's importance in things both GODLY and otherwise, namely being Numerology. I do not pretend to have any knowledge of how or why this works for Good or Bad, but I do KNOW it does.

A quick look around the GLOBE today, shows it being used to "Create" desired effects. Effects for both the Good and bad.

But it also has an Origin, and despite the comprehension we may harbour in respects to this, that Origin, like the Biblical Teachings, or the Zodiac for that matter, have come from and are from the Creator of it all. Someone I refer to as GOD.

P.S.S.S. Locoman's Post

reply to post by AbuMusaab


Up here we used to have similar formal or polite forms when talking to strangers or people of power etc. Loosly translated into English we would say: "Greetings, how are They?" When we in reality meant to ask "How are you?" In German they still have these polite forms when a certain distance or honour is needed: "Wie geht es Ihnen?" when they really want to ask "How are you today?" where Ihnen is Dativ form of Sie - "They" in the meaning "du". When talking to someone you know, you'd say: "Wie geht es dir?" or simply "Wie geht's?" The black slaves of the South States also used similar politeness when they asked their "master": "Are We sick today, master?" when they really meant "Are you sick today, master?"

Linguisticly speaking, what we see in Hebrew with God speaking as reflected in the translations as plural name, us and our etc. is this exact same thing. However, there were other, lesser gods or angels present. God is like the CEO talking to his staff of creators. Elohim gets to sign his name on what is created, but there were actually others doing the work itself. Just like when an artist get's to design a church for instance. He makes the sketches then hands his drafts over to a technican who makes CAD drawings etc. and a whole process of sending things back and forth before the artist agrees on the final outcome. The artist would then perhaps look at stained glass windows, make a similar sketch, and go to meet a glass worker, who'd apply these sketches and turn them into reality, working from the detailed descriptions of the artist. Then he would go to a master carpenter with drawings on what the altar should look like, and the craftsman would carry out the artist's wishes. Then the stone masons and so on.Rome wasn't built in a day you know. People who believe God has made the universe all on his own are simply shallow minded and lack contact with reality in my opinion. It's madness to think that God would or even could have made everything in six days some 6000 years ago.

[edit on 18/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
People who believe God has made the universe all on his own are simply shallow minded and lack contact with reality in my opinion.

Oh, there you go and show fangs.

You are now saying, I AM simply shallow minded and lack content with reality.

And I thought you played well with others.

You are pianting a picture from the place inwhich you stand my friend, and at best, your lack of comprehension as to why some may actually believe GOD alone is the CREATOR of ALL, is due to way the Sunlight illuminates the object you are intending to paint.

It's madness to think that God would or even could have made everything in six days some 6000 years ago.

It is madness to think the "Six (6) Days" you refer to have anything to do with 6000 Years ago.

It is madness to think that GOD would not have the ability to do everything in six YOWM in the "Re-Creation Account" of Genesis 1.

3117 yowm yome from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):--age, + always, + chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever(-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year(-ly), + younger.

Some 6000 years ago, the ONLY THING BEING CREATED was the GARDENER, and eventually EVE.

How long the previous 7 (seven) days/YOWM lasted, or better said spanned, is at best conjecture and shear speculation.
Ciao

Shane

P.S. Are we interested in some here?

Here's My Time Frame of the RECREATION Account.

Well, would this be out of line?

The First Day = 21800 BC = the Age of Capricorn (Let there be Light)
The Second Day = 19650 BC = the Age of Sagittarius (the Firmament or Heavens)
The Third Day = 17500 BC = the Age of Scorpius (The Ground and Plants)
The Fourth Day = 15350 BC = the Age of Libra (The Stars in the Heavens)
The Fifth Day = 13200 BC = the Age of Virgo (Aquatic Life and Fowl)
The Sixth Day = 11000 BC = the Age of Leo (Animal Life and the Races)
The Seventh Day = 8850 BC = The Age of Cancer (Adam & Eve)
The Eight Day = 6700 BC = the Age of Gemini(Noah and the Flood)
The Ninth Day = 4500 BC = the Age of Taurus (Bull of Baal)
The Tenth Day = 2400 BC = the Age of Aries (Abraham to David & the Prophets)
The Eleventh Day = 200 BC = the Age of Pisces (Chirst through to the Current)
The Twelth Day = 2012 AD = the Age of Aquarius (Chirst's return & Revelations)

Lifted from an older post of mine but it reflects a period of time which if taken into full consideration could truely represent 1 Day in time, since it takes the FULL Procession of the Equinox 26000 Years to complete a Cycle. That could well be One Day, in the perspective of GOD.

Food for Thought

reply to post by Shane


Well, my point is simply to show that we can't explain away the truth through clinging to modern interpretations of ancient words. In English Bibles the world is created in seven days, but in the Hebrew language the word translated "day" may mean everything from day to reality to age to eternity. That's where shallow is relevant, and people needs to make a reality check. Here we have taken an ancient Hebrew text which in reality is a compendium of the science of back then, what was concidered truth. And the relatively modern European Church has put restraints to this ancient system of wisdom. Tracing the origins of the first creation myth of the Bible (there are actually three of them in total) known as Genesis 1, we end up with the Enuma Elish and other famous Sumerian texts which are several millennia older than Genesis. Though I don't fully agree with some of the thesis presented in the below link, I hope you have a critical mind against atleast other traditions than the one you yourself belong to and can sort it out on your own and make up your mind. Reading the Law and the prophets it is obvious to any scholar that these ancient Hebrew prophets knew of these much older texts and besides their main difference that the Hebrews converted them into their language and culture, it is the same story, only books like the Enuma Elisj contains many more details. Six thousand years ago the Sumerians explained the creation of the asteroide belt, and also showed us there are more planets than we can see with the naked eye. With a little knowledge and a sharp sight you also recognise this same ancient knowledge in the much younger text of Genesis.

meta-religion.com... (a very simplified version, but still quite informative)

Wikipedia article on Enuma Elisj

[edit on 18/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Hydroman

The truth has always been there. Do you see it now they all creatures had one language? This is from the Book of "The Antiquities of the Jews" Book one, chapter one written by Flavius Josephus. There is much more then just your bible, remember man put the bible together. Flavius could write and pen things done in his time frame. In the beginning they couldn't write so they carried the stories the truth from one to another.

4. God therefore commanded that Adam and his wife should eat of all the rest of the plants, but to abstain from the tree of knowledge; and foretold to them, that if they touched it, it would prove their destruction. But while all the living creatures had one language, (5) at that time the serpent, which then lived together with Adam and his wife, shewed an envious disposition, at his supposal of their living happily, and in obedience to the commands of God; and imagining, that when they disobeyed them, they would fall into calamities, he persuaded the woman, out of a malicious intention, to taste of the tree of knowledge, telling them, that in that tree was the knowledge of good and evil; which knowledge, when they should obtain, they would lead a happy life; nay, a life not inferior to that of a god: by which means he overcame the woman, and persuaded her to despise the command of God. Now when she had tasted of that tree, and was pleased with its fruit, she persuaded Adam to make use of it also. Upon this they perceived that they were become naked to one another; and being ashamed thus to appear abroad, they invented somewhat to cover them; for the tree sharpened their understanding; and they covered themselves with fig-leaves; and tying these before them, out of modesty, they thought they were happier than they were before, as they had discovered what they were in want of. But when God came into the garden, Adam, who was wont before to come and converse with him, being conscious of his wicked behavior, went out of the way. This behavior surprised God; and he asked what was the cause of this his procedure; and why he, that before delighted in that conversation, did now fly from it, and avoid it. When he made no reply, as conscious to himself that he had transgressed the command of God, God said, "I had before determined about you both, how you might lead a happy life, without any affliction, and care, and vexation of soul; and that all things which might contribute to your enjoyment and pleasure should grow up by my providence, of their own accord, without your own labor and pains-taking; which state of labor and pains-taking would soon bring on old age, and death would not be at any remote distance: but now thou hast abused this my good-will, and hast disobeyed my commands; for thy silence is not the sign of thy virtue, but of thy evil conscience." However, Adam excused his sin, and entreated God not to be angry at him, and laid the blame of what was done upon his wife; and said that he was deceived by her, and thence became an offender; while she again accused the serpent. But God allotted him punishment, because he weakly submitted to the counsel of his wife; and said the ground should not henceforth yield its fruits of its own accord, but that when it should be harassed by their labor, it should bring forth some of its fruits, and refuse to bring forth others. He also made Eve liable to the inconveniency of breeding, and the sharp pains of bringing forth children; and this because she persuaded Adam with the same arguments wherewith the serpent had persuaded her, and had thereby brought him into a calamitous condition. He also deprived the serpent of speech, out of indignation at his malicious disposition towards Adam. Besides this, he inserted poison under his tongue, and made him an enemy to men; and suggested to them, that they should direct their strokes against his head, that being the place wherein lay his mischievous designs towards men, and it being easiest to take vengeance on him, that way. And when he had deprived him of the use of his feet, he made him to go rolling all along, and dragging himself upon the ground. And when God had appointed these penalties for them, he removed Adam and Eve out of the garden into another place.
www.biblestudytools.com...



[edit on 4/18/2010 by Katie]

reply to post by Northwarden


I have seen those threads that you have posted about.
Theres not much a person can do to change their mind. All a person can do is pray for them and place them in Gods hands. Then you have to walk away from them. Its best not to post to them.

Demonic possession is at a very high level in this world. Many have lost their lives because of it. Then they are cut off from God for an eternity. It becomes a spiral down for them to a very dark place where they can't get themselves out of. Help doesn't always reach them in time. To open these doors is very dangerous a person has nothing to gain but everything to lose.

If help reaches them in time and an exorcism is preformed God never denies them this help and brings them back to him.

Why would anybody want to take this route in life as you are putting so many lives around you in danger? Not just yourself but your family and the people you care about.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Well, my point is simply to show that we can't explain away the truth through clinging to modern interpretations of ancient words.

In this we are in agreement.

At the very basis of this is a TOTAL LACK OF COMPREHENSION.

From the Link's offered, it is the following that defines a problem with the reality man has developed or concieved in lack of perspective.

This epic is one of the most important sources for understanding the Babylonian worldview, centered on the supremacy of Marduk and the creation of humankind for the service of the gods. Its primary original purpose, however, is not an exposition of theology or theogony, but the elevation of Marduk, the chief god of Babylon, above other Mesopotamian gods.

Marduk is just Satan in one of his many guises.

This is a perversion of the ORIGINAL FORM OF WORSHIP, one this whole planet once followed.

Look at our Catholic Church, and the exact same sort of thing has been done.

There is an ORIGINAL form of WORSHIP.

The Fallen, all claiming to be gods and deities of one form or another then adjust the "Known" form of worship, just enough to shine the light on themselves apposed to GOD.

This is what is not understood by many at all. We selectively opt to catorgorize and segment things into seperate containers of thought.

This is the scam being presented to us, Modern Man, by the spirits of the Fallen and the spawn they created with the daughters of man. We assume, since Babel was prior to the Hebrew, then there must be some connection that points to the Babel as the originator of the latter.

It is nothing that elaborate at all.

IT's the SAME FN STORY, one told by the Fallen, and the Other Inspired by GOD through Israel.

Where did Abraham Originate? UR.

Where did Noah's son Shem settle? Between Turkey and Iran somewhere, is the best evidence, seeing we have the Semite Nations coming from this region and a proposed Ark either in Turkey or Iran.

There is more evidence that the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, and Egyptian tales are plagerized from the Stories told to them by their fathers, (namely being Ham, Japeth and Shem).

This, with whispering of the "nachash" in it's varied forms and emplying it's underlings spoken of in the Books of Enoch.

This is the ORIGIN of Sumerian Texts.
This is the ORIGIN of Babylonian Texts.

This, along with a TOTAL AND COMPLETE LACK of ORIGINAL THOUGHT.

Reading the Law and the prophets it is obvious to any scholar that these ancient Hebrew prophets knew of these much older texts and besides their main difference that the Hebrews converted them into their language and culture, it is the same story, only books like the Enuma Elisj contains many more details.

As expressed above, your are damm right that Abraham Knew, as did his forefather Noah. LONG before any Sumer or Babylon. This whole Planet followed the Law, in the Recreated Genesis Timeframe, until Cain.

Six thousand years ago the Sumerians explained the creation of the asteroide belt, and also showed us there are more planets than we can see with the naked eye. With a little knowledge and a sharp sight you also recognise this same ancient knowledge in the much younger text of Genesis.

Here, I generally agree these ideal and concept came from this region, I completely disregard this as an Sumerian accomplishment.

Enoch CHAPTER VIII.
1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures.
2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl, (taught) astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, 〈Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun〉, and Sariêl the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

No my friend. THIS is the ORIGIN of Sumerian Knowledge. To be sure and certain, the Sumerians left this record, but they where told, and again, by WHO???? The Fallen.

But I do agree, it is a matter that is much deeper than many would or are willing to go. Fastfood Mindsets have little appetite for a Home Cooked Meal today. But this is all part of the devolution process Dawrin brought us.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane

This epic is one of the most important sources for understanding the Babylonian worldview, centered on the supremacy of Marduk and the creation of humankind for the service of the gods. Its primary original purpose, however, is not an exposition of theology or theogony, but the elevation of Marduk, the chief god of Babylon, above other Mesopotamian gods.

Marduk is just Satan in one of his many guises.

And the OT prophets would probably have said the same about our deity called God, with his son Jesus and his Roman deities Mars, Venus and Jupiter called "the Planets" etc. If you study the relevance of the obvious similarities between the Babylonian text, which BTW is based on even older texts from Sumer etc. and trace the etymology of the gods'/planets' etc. names that in Hebrew has been transformed into words and concepts, and understand that the oldest versions we have of Genesis are from after the Babylonian captivity etc. well, OT is basically Babylonian lore made to fit Hebrew tradition.

This is a perversion of the ORIGINAL FORM OF WORSHIP, one this whole planet once followed.

Indeed, but Hebrew religion dates back to the Babylonian captivity, and the oldest roots are from Abraham who found God in Sumer, in the city of Ur in Kaldea. And that is far from Original Religion. If you want Original Religion, you'd have to look up paganism and shamanism as the result of Egyptian Scientific religion often refered to as Alchemy dedicated to Thoth. Then you are looking at the roots of Religion. The Tanakh or the Old Testament as we know it was gathered by the Jews somewhere between the second century BC and the third century AD when it was standardised and completed, about the same time Christians included these texts in their canon called Biblia or the Bible, aka the Catholic Canonical Bible. The oldest manuscripts we have of the books of the Law, the Torah or the Books of Mosjeh (Moses) were found about 60 years ago and is part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Can you guess how old these are? They date back to about 150 BC. Compared to Egyptian and Babylonian, and most of all Mesopotamian and Vedic documents they are predated by several millennia, and the Book of Genesis is clearly a compendium of these ancient texts, the Enuma Elisj being but one of the tales. So as far as Original Religion goes, the Hebrew one is relatively young and quite modern. So is the language known as Hebrew today.

Look at our Catholic Church, and the exact same sort of thing has been done.

There is an ORIGINAL form of WORSHIP.

The Fallen, all claiming to be gods and deities of one form or another then adjust the "Known" form of worship, just enough to shine the light on themselves apposed to GOD.

And this character GOD who is he, but the Christian combination of a great number of other deities into three gods who are one. Certainly not very original, ey?

Where did Abraham Originate? UR.
Where did Noah's son Shem settle? Between Turkey and Iran somewhere

And like I mentioned briefly earlier in this reply, Ur was one of the most important city states in the Sumerian kingdom. Mesopotamia. And he (Abraham) was according to Hebrew tradition a son of a great Sumerian king and high priest, and it was here Abraham found God. We have no written material made by Abraham, for all we know he is a fictional character, or an early lesser Canaanite god whose name means Father. The first arcaeological evidence we have of there being an Abraham dates back to the second century BC, a couple of thousand years after he would have lived. Much like our Jesjuah today, only we have more proof of him having lived.

There is more evidence that the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, and Egyptian tales are plagerized from the Stories told to them by their fathers, (namely being Ham, Japeth and Shem).

Sorry, but you miss the target by atleast 3500 years lady. I don't want to break your heart, but that is the cold facts. Earliest referances to there being a Canaanite people who called themselves Israel is found on an Egyptian stele dated at about the 13th century BC, still, that isn't even close to when the oldest Egyptian and Mesopotamian, Indian and so on scriptures surfaced. Check out the latest edition of Biblical Arcaeology Review, where you can read this straight from the horse's mouth so to speak, when the Hebrew Arcaeologist Israel Finkelstein is interviewed.

“Israel is laid waste and his seed is not,” the Egyptian pharaoh boasts in hieroglyphic on the so-called Merneptah Stele from the late 13th century B.C.E.

Source: BAR issue 36:03, May/Jun 2010

This, with whispering of the "nachash" in it's varied forms and emplying it's underlings spoken of in the Books of Enoch.

This is the ORIGIN of Sumerian Texts.
This is the ORIGIN of Babylonian Texts.

This, along with a TOTAL AND COMPLETE LACK of ORIGINAL THOUGHT.

Like I have explained and are happy to bring forth evidence for, it is a groundless assumption or claim you present. It's not that I don't want to believe you, it's just that my mind tells me you have been lied to and base your assumptions on bad information. Or as you say from the lying tongue of the Nachasj

Reading the Law and the prophets it is obvious to any scholar that these ancient Hebrew prophets knew of these much older texts and besides their main difference that the Hebrews converted them into their language and culture, it is the same story, only books like the Enuma Elisj contains many more details.

As expressed above, your are damm right that Abraham Knew, as did his forefather Noah. LONG before any Sumer or Babylon. This whole Planet followed the Law, in the Recreated Genesis Timeframe, until Cain.

Have you even read the texts you accuse of being copies of the much more recent of origin texts. They only carry different names and come from different cultures. And if I may add: Much older cultures, among the ones who invented written language etc. Looking at Hebrew as we know it for instance, it is about as old as Latin, which both are relatively modern languages. How can we know this? Because Linguistics and arcaeology prooves it.

Six thousand years ago the Sumerians explained the creation of the asteroide belt, and also showed us there are more planets than we can see with the naked eye. With a little knowledge and a sharp sight you also recognise this same ancient knowledge in the much younger text of Genesis.

Here, I generally agree these ideal and concept came from this region, I completely disregard this as an Sumerian accomplishment.

The sumerians didn't invent these stories. They may have invented the languages they were written in, many of whose words we believe they worshipped as gods today. Did you know that in ancient Egyptian the word for the Sun is Ra. Just like children draw smiley faces on the sun in their drawings today, and artists make it even more beautiful than it is, and so on, the ancient Egyptians did so too. For the savages, their scientifically esoteric art was and is still seen as pagan sun worship, but when you look deeper, there has always been monotheistic referances in all ancient religions. Time only turnd words into gods and people forget what the symbols mean. When people come along claiming descendance from this God, the pantheons develop. Thoth wrote about this kind of decay in his Apocalypse or Lament. And to make it even worse, the prophet Thoth is even refered to as a pagan god these days. We are more savage and pagan than the old Babylonians. We simply don't understand.

To Shane, continueing:

Enoch CHAPTER VIII.
1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures.
2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl, (taught) astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, 〈Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun〉, and Sariêl the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

No my friend. THIS is the ORIGIN of Sumerian Knowledge. To be sure and certain, the Sumerians left this record, but they where told, and again, by WHO???? The Fallen.

The Enochian tradition dates back to a few hundred years BC. Good try. Enoch lived about 5000+ years ago, but he didn't write those books. At best they were told from parens to their children in 70 generations before they were written down, but I'm afraid you are completely wrong. According to tradition Enoch received language from God, although Kabalah actually explains how it was the female sea monster who had been ordered by Jahveh to return the book to Adam since Satan had stolen the book containing among other things teachings of language. Adam who was then dead, couldn't allow Leviathan to complete his mission, therefore Enoch got it instead. This book is sometimes refered to as the Sparkj of Heaven or the Book of Raziel. The Ethiopian Book of Enoch is the oldest known, and is usually dated to the 3rd century BC. The two other books known as Enoch 2 and 3 dates back to the first few centuries AD. In other words, not very old compared with the Vedas, Gilgamesh or for that matter the Enuma Elisj.

But I do agree, it is a matter that is much deeper than many would or are willing to go. Fastfood Mindsets have little appetite for a Home Cooked Meal today. But this is all part of the devolution process Dawrin brought us.

Well, sensing the symbology here, I'd prefer the best food served in the best restaurants, by master chefs in the most perfect manner, and I do that from time to time when I can afford it and want to do some girl or good guy a treat. I also make my own food, but in this context I would never make my own meals unless I used the best ingredients my wallet could afford or my garden could provide. I would rather eat from the hands of angels and gods if possible, and invite prophets and wise men and women from aløl over the world if I could, and in this regard, using food as a symbol for knowledge, we really can do that, and the best of it all, we don't nessasarily need to pay that much either.

Sorry to say, the Bible is a rather modern compilation of much older traditional religious epics and dramas, works of science and history and so on. One of the only unique things with Judaism, Christianity and the Bible is the Torah Law, and it's prophecies. The "Jesus" you worship today wouldn't recognise himself if or when he came back. Most probably he would scoff at those who cry Lord Lord and claim to be saved by Grace and all of that stuff before the guy whose supposed to grant that has even looked through their lives. Reality check, melady, check check! I bet you are a really good and decent person, and probably a much better person then myself, but make sure you check your sources and make also sure to read scientific knowledge about Biblical arcaeology and so on before you post what you will later in life recognice as nonsense. I mean no harm, it's a good advise, and I speak from quite a bit of experience.

"Gird up the loins of your mind".

Best wishes,
NCM

Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, and in OUR likeness."

This has always sounded to me like the plural of OUR is a male AND female God who created each gender IN THEIR OWN IMAGE accordingly.

The word Man in the bible is descriptive of BOTH males and females.

I think it's the convoluted story that follows it about Adam being made from dust and Eve from the rib that confuses the whole thing.
Because on the first page of Genesis Adam and Eve are created on DAY 6 and yet according to what follows it says before there was heaven and earth and then tells the creation story version 2 about the dirt and the rib which would have been done on DAY 1 in the version 1 timeline.

Creation story version 2 sounds like it was written by a different person who wrote the 7 DAYS OF CREATION and has taken a lot of liberty by adding things that don't add up or make sense when compared to what is written on the first page by the first writer.

I prefer the version on page 1 as it's straight forward self explanatory and doesn't contradict itself. And it quite clearly says to me at least that there are 2 gods of 2 sexes who created humanity.
Seeing as we do indeed have 2 sexes , it makes perfect sense that is what is meant.

reply to post by Flighty


I used to agree with your ideas here, but as time has gone by and I have had time to look at and study the first couple of pages more carefully I have reached a slightly different approach. Firstly the main reason for the plural forms seen in the first myth, I find in linguistics, but the origin of this majesty pluralis and the plural intesive forms, have deeper roots than modern language. It has to have a more profound and logic explanation than there being two gods of two sexes, or two or three or a whole bunch of gods etc, this is only elaborations and results of someething more sinister, it has to be in some way all in one, as the name Elohim is all in one. I believe Elohim was a hermaphrodite, a unisexual entity, carrying both male and female parts, and capable of cloning himself or even develop himself, through using the two male and female cells his sexual organs would or could produce. When Adam is created in chapter one, he is created male and female, and through carefully studying the text further on into the second myth of creation, God causes Adam to fall into a deep sleep, and he lit. plucks out a cell (Heb. tsela and Lat. cella is actually the same word with much the same semantics and etymology only in two different languages), from which he creates Eve, and he close up the female genitals -- down there ("basar" may mean a man's pudenda, "tachtennah" may be translated "place down there").

This whole thing has lead me to uprightly claim that Elohim is in reality both male and female in the self and his body and Adam originally was also, until God reshaped him and changed his genetic markup to create woman from one of his cells. If anyone wants to study this, or don't believe me, please check out the pages below.

Verse in traditional wordings: biblos.com...
Tsela (in the meaning chamber): strongsnumbers.com...
Basar: strongsnumbers.com...
Tachtennah/tachath: strongsnumbers.com...

[edit on 18/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Hydroman

You can take a look at this site as they have a way of explaining some of your questions. Also remember the word dinosaur was a word invented by man.

When God said he created all creatures that meant all.

www.genesispark.org...

reply to post by Katie


In my honest opinion the dinos were the dragons God destroyed during the creation as written in Psalms and elsewhere. I believe these dragons were the creations of the "Greys", the reptilian aliens often discribed as inhumane enemies of man. I believe these are represented in the Zohar as the blind dragon Samael came to earth riding upon, before he fell and was renamed Ha-Satan, and became nicknamed the "Dragon" and "Serpent", since he collaborated with them. The Greys were in turn created by The Elohim as tools in further creation and development of technology for traveling in time-space etc.

[edit on 18/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by Katie
You can take a look at this site as they have a way of explaining some of your questions. Also remember the word dinosaur was a word invented by man.

When God said he created all creatures that meant all.

In your previous posts, you said that God killed all the animals that could talk. You also showed me in Josephus's writings that at one time ALL living creatures had the same language. Now, since god saved some animals, along with Noah, why don't the animals still talk?

Second, I responded to a post of yours where you asked me, "Where in the Bible does it talk about an ice age...." Then I turned the tables on you and said, "Where in the Bible does it say all animals talk?" What did you do? You said, "There are other books besides the Bible, the Bible was put together by man." Then you gave me a long quote from Josephus with tons of info that is found nowhere in the Bible. So where did he get that info?

Wtf? Then don't use the Bible as the only reference, ever, if you're going to say that there are other books besides the bible! Wow. If you had any credibility with me, it just went POOF.



[edit on 18-4-2010 by Hydroman]

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Indeed, but Hebrew religion dates back to the Babylonian captivity, and the oldest roots are from Abraham who found God in Sumer, in the city of Ur in Kaldea. And that is far from Original Religion. If you want Original Religion, you'd have to look up paganism and shamanism as the result of Egyptian Scientific religion often refered to as Alchemy dedicated to Thoth. Then you are looking at the roots of Religion.

You see, I differ in the preception of this, based on some "Knowns" we can see in Genesis.

Adam, "Knew" what marriage was about.
Adam had no instructions on the High and Holy Days

Yet, Cain and Abel observed these Days with Sacrafices of their own accords.

No Neo, there was a GOD based religion or form of worship which was centric to the Six Day Recreations and was simply followed by Adam and his decendants.

It was this that became polluted by the Fallen. All things flow from GOD and the ORIGIN is rooted here. This is the ORIGINAL.

Sumer, Babylon and so on, where given a similiar form of "Worship" to follow, but with the Fallen, acting as Aliens, or Marduk, or Baal, or Ishtar, or Zeus, or Apollo, or Mercury, or Venus, or Dianna or.......(You can fill in names for weeks my Friend), who instructed and detailed the religion or form of worship the "followers" would adhere to and understand.

The Tanakh or the Old Testament as we know it was gathered by the Jews somewhere between the second century BC and the third century AD when it was standardised and completed, ..................................... So as far as Original Religion goes, the Hebrew one is relatively young and quite modern. So is the language known as Hebrew today.

I follow exactly what you are expressing. Yes THIS ASPECT of the matter is quite understandable and your insights into this are absolutely accurate.

I ask though, Which came first? Shem, or the Semite Nations? This is the Picture we are looking at. Not which Semite Peoples left the first records of what they understood, but which came first.

My personal view is we are speaking about 6500-7000 BCE for Adam, and 5500 for the time of Noah.

Sumer arose in around 4000 BCE or there abouts. An intelligent Sumer capiable of leaving a History.

Sumerians

The cities of Sumer were the first civilization to practice intensive, year-round agriculture, (from ca. 5300 BC). By perhaps 5000 BC, the Sumerians had developed core agricultural techniques including large-scale intensive cultivation of land, mono-cropping, organized irrigation, and the use of a specialized labour force, particularly along the waterway now known as the Shatt al-Arab, from its Persian Gulf delta to the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates. The surplus of storable food created by this economy allowed the population to settle in one place instead of migrating after crops and grazing land. It also allowed for a much greater population density, and in turn required an extensive labor force and division of labor. This organization led to the development of writing (ca. 3500 BC).

This is my point.

And this character GOD who is he, but the Christian combination of a great number of other deities into three gods who are one. Certainly not very original, ey?

"I am that I am" is simply the CREATOR/Father of it all. Even the pagan gods and dieties know this and acknowledge this in what they presented to their followers. It's not brain surgury.

Sorry, but you miss the target by atleast 3500 years lady. ................................... where you can read this straight from the horse's mouth so to speak, when the Hebrew Arcaeologist Israel Finkelstein is interviewed.

Again, you misunderstand. I fully acknowledge "ISRAEL" as a Nation followed these "Other" cultures. THAT IS BASIC BIBLICAL TEACHINGS 101. I am dishearted about your views on our Father, Abraham, but trust you will find the evidence your require to reconsider and return him to the Non Fiction side of the Agenda.

What is being lost somewhere between us is Noah, and Adam preceeded Sumer, and Babylon and such.

I know some day in the near future, we will have another "Source" to reflect on these things further, when the Minoan Script is broken. We will find it predates everything else we have to review today.

Like I have explained and are happy to bring forth evidence for, it is a groundless assumption or claim you present.

Pointless, Ignored, Dismissed, and Distained most certainly, but not Groundless. Neo, I am not attempting to convert you to believe what I have expressed. It is my point of view. We have had this talk before. It is the expression of thought and consideration of viewpoints we are exchanging, and I generally tend to accept much of what you have express, as acknowledged several times even here.

The Evidence you wish to present, from my point of view is CORRUPTED. From your point of view, it seems you do not feel this way. No problem. Live and Learn.

I have a firm grasp of what the Tales of Sumer, Babylon, Egypt, Greece, and Rome express. It is one tale, told by different mouths.

I also have a firm grasp of what the Bible is and how it was placed together. I know when most of the TEXTS where scribed, and I know who and how our "English" verison arose.

None of what you have presented is NEWS.

You are more than entitled to have these as your views.

Have you even read the texts you accuse of being copies of the much more recent of origin texts.

YES!

AND you ran out of space. I'll see you soon my friend.

Ciao

Shane