A lesson on Britian for AMERICANS

Originally posted by Kram09
Look, at the end of the day we're all British.

We're the best.

Rule Britannia!

Hahaha only kidding! But can't we all just get along?

Ignore our embarrassing cousins across the pond!

Just joking, I love you guys really. I just like to give you a bit of a ribbing now and then!

Like they gave you a bit of ribbing around...i dunno..1776?

I consider myself just an earthling btw, I pledge no allegiance to this country

Originally posted by daviroo
Ask to join which union? The union was created when Scotland and England signed the Act of Union 1707 so there was no union for us to "ask" to join.

Yes. England had a Scottish monarch on the throne for almost a century prior to the Act(s) of Union and from that point on there was an attempt to merge the two kingdoms into one, with fairly stuff resistance from the English. Almost every time during that century when the idea popped up, it was promoted by the Scots (albeit not the "common" folk", but since when do we get to decide anything).

Scottish motivations for joining the Union far outweighed the English motivatiosn, which were purely to stop Scotland siding with enemies again in the future as they had done in the past, such as with France. Scotland however, had massive debts and wanted access to English markets, which they got. You can hardly paint the Union as anything other than seriously advantageous to Scotland.

Originally posted by daviroo
The English certainly didn't conquer us through strength of arms (despite many attempts)

Well, thats debateable. During the 13th and 14th centuries, there were real attempts to conquer Scotland, but not due to desires to expand, but rather due to the fact your chaps always sided with France whenever they took a swipe at England. After a while, this gets annoying.

After that, in the 15th and 16th centuries, we tried to leave you guys alone, but ongoing wars with France and/or Spain usually meant you jumped in for the chance to come and give us a slap.

Can you blame England for wanting rid of a neigfhbour to the north that would always take the chance to attack us when the bad boys of Europe weighed in?

Originally posted by daviroo
but there is a lot of evidence that bribes were given by the English to the Scottish commissioners given authority to negotiate the act. There was a lot of civil unrest at the time with protests and petitions coming in from all over the country against the union.

Wouldn't surprise me if there was. The Scots had alot to gain from the Union anyway, but these decisions were tkaing by nobelmen, not common folk, so it can hardly be levelled against us English as a nation. Also, there was significant public disquiet in England as well, as we'd be bailing you out of the failed Darian scheme (much like we bailed RBS out a couple of years back)

Originally posted by daviroo
Now don't get me wrong I have no wish to leave the union now as I believe whether English, Irish, Welsh or Scottish we all face the same problems in this day and age and we might as well solve them together.

Indeed. I only get so vociferous because many Scots seem to under the Spell of Alec the Salmon and believe all English are blood thirsty, conquering bastards, when it's no where near the truth.

Originally posted by daviroo
What does get on my nerves is when the English belittle Scotland like its a country just hanging onto England's coat tails as you just end up looking like the so called "ignorant" Americans that you claim get on your nerves. Here follows a good example of what I'm talking about :

I am not trying to belittle anyone, just pointing out the truth chap. I often find that Scots are under the impression that they are superior, but its due to the evil English that their country doesn't rule the world, so it does beg the question who belittles whom.

Don't get me wrong, Scotland is a wonderful place. I just wish you guys would kick the Salmon into touch and stop believing his highly romantacised versions of Scottish history. We need to stick together, not break apart.

Originally posted by InterestedParty
Fine then, if thats how you feel, Wales would quite happily seperate from the rest of the nation, in fact, i can bet that Scotland and Northern Ireland would quite like to seperate too.

HAHA! Even in Scotland, the most nationalist of the Home Nations, support for independance is sinking quicker than lead balloon. Wales has no pratical intention to sperate and I think NI has had it's fair share of issues for a while and has no desire to break away, hence the result of the Peace agreements.

Originally posted by InterestedParty
FYI we all have a practically seperate goverment from your Central Parliment.

Central parliament? What the devil is that? You do realise that there is no parliament for either Wales or England, only Scotland has one. The Welsh has an "assembly" (nothing more than a hyped up council) and the English have nothing, hence why I am a member of the English Democrats.

Originally posted by InterestedParty
Wales has The National Assembely, and Scotland The Independant Parliment......so if you feel you dont need us, well we might as well just get going.

I think you'll find that without the English taxpayer, you can kiss goodbye to almost every perk you currently enjoy, so we'll see who can get along without whom...

Originally posted by InterestedParty
Oh and btw, Wales is far nicer than England.

A gross generalisation based on nothing but bigotry and/or racism. Some areas of England are grotty, others are beautiful. Same can be said of Wales.

i am taking a world history class in high school right now, and i must say, unless it involves America or wars, Britain is not mentioned that much in the book or by the teacher, the especially don't tell us anything about the modern Britain.

reply to post by Stedlinn


World history, without Britain? Not being arrogant, but thats impossible! That's like studying WW2 and not even learning about Hitler, or Modern China without a mention of Mao...

Hmm, freudian slip there? I mentioned two of the most evil dictators this world has seen as examples in my analogies for the UK and it's role in history...

Ooop!

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Stedlinn

 

World history, without Britain? Not being arrogant, but thats impossible!

To be fair, Stedlinn did say that Britain was mentioned when there were wars.
I must admit that my school history never mentioned America except when there were wars.
Even then, they never mentioned 1812. That period was all about Bonaparte.

All history telling is selective, if only because there isn't enough space.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Aye, trying to squeeze in everything to an hour or two a week is hard.

When I was at school, we started at the Anglo_Saxons in year 7 and wormed our way through British history right up to WW2 by year 9. On the way, we did touch on other histories that intertwined our own, such as Spanish, French and those damned pesky colonial types....

Well what a snotty idea! Americans are a melting pot of all the world.
What makes you think Bittian deserves more special attention in the world History Department than other countries? Many American people are economically challenged and could care less beyond their own personal needs of their families.
Those who are educated and have spent time in England and Ireland feel
maybe your hospitallity is lacking, along with genuine social progress, and
intellectual growth. Lumping people together as a group is ignorant, people
across the planet are individuals with different needs, it's time for certain
countries to move forward. The past is in the past it's over. It's OVER.

Originally posted by frugal
Well what a snotty idea! Americans are a melting pot of all the world.
What makes you think Bittian deserves more special attention in the world History Department than other countries?

Only going to quote this bit as the rest appears to be irrelevant rambling.

If you study world history, then to ignore the UK and the British Empire is missing out a massive chunk of how the world today was shaped. You might think it as "snotty", but it's fact.

You couldn't study early European history without knowing something of the Roman Empire, nor could you study Classical history without being aware of what the Greeks did. The same goes for the British, especially if you're American!

I spent two weeks in Ireland last summer with a group of European woman. The two french women were sweet but ignorant of what they owe us for from World War II. The English veternarian was asking why Americans only make movies for Americans as if we owe Britian entertainment. She bashed Americans every chance she got, such lovely manners. The Swiss woman felt she was entitled to any and everything. The German lady was the nicest with the best manners. I came away from that vacation thinking don't call us when you all get in a fight with each other.... get along, we all have to. The best of Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland left Europe to painstakingly start a better world of Democracy.
Look at what we have achieved in a mere four hundred years! Amazing! We work hard for a future. Ramble on about the past, or grow towards better times in all areas of life. The past is long OVER.

I'm going to try and make a timeline of British history which isn't totally biased.

The previous timeline posted in this thread somehow went from Queen Victoria being made Empress of India to suddenly Britain taking part in the invasion of Kuwait? Did nothing even happen in between those times? Why the big gap?

Anyway, I'll get back to you with my timeline.

reply to post by frugal


In the words of Santayana, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Yes, I take your point that dwelling on the past can become self-absorbed nostalgia.
But if we want to understand where we are now (and what to do about it), it helps to have some understanding of how we got here.
Understanding the history of people all over the world is part of understanding people all over the world.
Incidentally, my own bookshelves include a large chunk of American history. We can all learn about each other.

reply to post by frugal


I'd hardly call a bunch of religious zealouts as "the best of Scotland/England etc", but whatever chap..

As for your achievements, prior to WW2 you were still technologically behind and until the 60's and 70's, significantly socially backward.

If you're confused what I mean, look at what you got off the UK in exchange for "lend/lease" (see Tizzard mission) and civil rights.

So maybe you should get off your soapbox and especially don;t base your assumption son a whole group of people on a couple of numpties you met in Ireland. I certainly don't base my opinion on Americans from the many I have met and that have irked me by being disrespectful to the UK. You get good and bad from all walks of life.

Originally posted by InterestedParty
reply to post by jonny2410

 

Fine then, if thats how you feel, Wales would quite happily seperate from the rest of the nation, in fact, i can bet that Scotland and Northern Ireland would quite like to seperate too.

Good luck to you. You really would need it.

Oh and btw, Wales is far nicer than England.

Riiiight... Don't get me wrong, Wales has some beautiful scenery - but it also has some bleak and depressing locations too.

Compare Cumbria to Rhyll and you'll soon realise your arguements are pointless in front of my shining truth.

Originally posted by frugal
I spent two weeks in Ireland last summer with a group of European woman. The two french women were sweet but ignorant of what they owe us for from World War II. The English veternarian was asking why Americans only make movies for Americans as if we owe Britian entertainment. She bashed Americans every chance she got, such lovely manners. The Swiss woman felt she was entitled to any and everything. The German lady was the nicest with the best manners. I came away from that vacation thinking don't call us when you all get in a fight with each other....

So because you met some people who weren't American and they were different to what you expected. And they didn't behave how you wanted them too.... And they had opinions of their own and they were different to each other and they DARED to challenge your culture.

How dare they...

Look at what we have achieved in a mere four hundred years! Amazing! We work hard for a future. Ramble on about the past, or grow towards better times in all areas of life. The past is long OVER.

Yeah it took you long enough to catch up eh? In fact most of your achievements are based on UK and European achievements...

But don't let a little thing called global history get in the way of a good strop eh?

reply to post by stumason


i wish they would put more Britain into the class, the only reason i know a lot about Britain is because in Virgina(my home state) we had to learn about the colonization of America. But since i moved south, there is less and less on Britain, i would think they would teach us more than just when it was involved in wars or the plague.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by shauny

 

Seems to me many forget that for centuries, Scotland invaded and preyed upon the English borders, in fact even before England existed as a nation. Edinburgh was orignally an English city, but was taken by the Scots after a Viking invasion weakened the Kingdom of Northumbria for example.

How can Edinburgh originally be an English city if England didn't exist prior to 927AD and Edinburgh had been around for centuries before then? The Northumbrian kingdom had Edinburgh within its borders, not "England". Check your history.

I also noticed some (Scots) keeping some sort of battle tally, but they seem to dodge around the Battle of Flodden, in which a much smaller English Army crushed a much larger Scottish Army and also killed the Scottish King of the time, King James IV.

The Battle of Flodden wasn't, as some might have you believe, an English invasion of Scotland, but the reverse. It was the latest in a long series of Scottish invasiosn designed to take the heat of their Frenchy friends.. But these things never get mentioned, do they? It's always England being the bad guy? Righto, whatever Alec the Salmon will have you believe...

The Scots attacked England due to the terms of the Auld Alliance between France and Scotland. This was drawn up against Edward I of England who, after a quick succession of heirs' deaths, was reluctantly made feudal overlord of Scotland until it was decided who would succeed to the throne. But Edward still tried to impose authority over the Scots even after John Balliol was made king. He wanted them to ally with England against France which they refused and Edward put Balliol in the Tower of London . Thus, the Auld Alliance was born in 1295.

It is not a tally, it is knowledge of history and a dam good bit of banter between us but it seems you have taken something really personal on this thread or elsewhere, I don't know.

Why else would you come away with the following....

Crack on, have independance, the quicker the better. You might think you would be rich from oil, but a signifcant amount of the rigs are actually in what would be English Waters, not Scottish. You're not even guranteed accession to the EU, whioch would basically mean you'd sink faster than the Titanic.

We are Europes leading producer of petroleum which, if you ask me, would imply that most of the rigs or the most productive rigs offshore are in fact in Scottish waters. But Scotland has more than that. Other industries include production and exporting of electricity, iron, zinc, fish, textiles, whisky, banking and financial services, construction, education, entertainment, biotechnology, transport equipment, gas, ships, avionics, electronics, computer software and tourism. Edinburgh is the 6th largest fincancial centre in Europe and home of The Royal Bank of Scotland, 4th largest bank in the world. Scotland is set to become leaders in production and export of renewable energies by way of wave, wind and tidal power.

What makes you think that Scotland would be denied entry to the EU? What makes you think that Scotland would want entry to the EU? Switzerland springs to mind...Monaco too...Liechtenstein...

And back to the oil - in the 1970's, the McCrone report would have revealed that the discovery of oil in the North Sea would give Scottish Nationalists the momentum it needed to push for Scottish independence and giving us one of the strongest currencies in Europe....if the documents weren't sealed as secret and not revealed to the public. Read a bit about it here. If we are that much of a burden then why didn't Labour just let us go? Think about it.

And while there has been significant amount of revenue added to the Treasury from "Scottish" oil, this has nearly always paled in comparison to cost of Scotland, as you see they have the highest Government spending per capita in the whole of the UK by a large margin, significantly funded by taxpayer contributions from the South.

Oil has only generated revenue for a few decades, but Scotland has been a financial burden on the English taxpayer since 1707, when our King (who was a Scot) signed the Act of Union to bail out your abortive attempts at a colonial Empire.

You said it yourself, Scotlands revenue from oil has been significant but it goes through Westminister. If the money came directly to Scotland and we managed our own budgeting things could be different.

Scotland doesn't have more spent per head in the UK. I think you'll find that it is Northern Ireland. Wales and Northern Ireland are also subsidised by England. What about them? You can't be selective in these matters. Wales also has a strong nationalist movement pushing for independence. Where is your attack on them?

If you knew anything about the Barnett formula that Westminister has in place then you would know that it doesn't work. Hence the reasoning behind wanting greater fiscal powers rather than working within a fixed-budget set out by Westminister. Lord Steel produced a report a few years back and said that the best way forward would be to give Scotland greater control over taxations and budgets similar to what is in place on the Isle of Man...so if you want to vent some steam at someone then look to your own politicians in the south. We want change, you won't allow it...go figure...

As you can see from this thread, the UK is anything but united. It also shows how tolerant we can be, seeing as we live on one of the most crowded islands in the world with people we all seem to hate and have done for centuries.

Ah it comes to light now. You hate us Borderline racism. Certainly prejudiced though. I don't hate the English, just Westminister and its policies toward Scotland. Oh, and the uninformed English who spout their anti-Scottish pish when it is their own government that has the inneffective Barnett formula in place. Read up on that by the way. It was meant as a temporary measure in the late 70's and even the guy Barnett who created it says it shouldn't be in use.
Attack the government and not the people of Scotland who want the changes Westminister won't make....

[edit on 4/4/2010 by itchy_tartan_blanket]

Originally posted by ENGLISH BOB
A lesson on Britain for AMERICANS

I think the lesson is that we're a bunch of idiots who can't even agree on what Britain is, or even spell it, never mind the actual history of it.

ROFLMAO

Just an observation here, going slightly ever so off topic.

But if you think of the conspiracies concering the idea that the governments of the world are concealing existence of UFOs/aliens, then it's no wonder, considering how we all can't even agree and get along with each other.

FAO People on this thread that are saying places are nicer than others.
I am fully qualified to address this issue...........
I live in Swansea Wales......I originate from the Midlands thats England for those that think a holiday to England incorporates a trip to Ireland. I spent my chilldhood going around our Isles in Regattas Rowing. So I have seen the best and the worst of Ireland, NIreland, England, Scotland and Wales. Here in WALES Swansea I can take a 10 minute bus ride to some beautiful beaches and countryside but if I took another bus I'll see piles of litter along the curbs, drunks bothering old pensioners. Graffitti on old buildings polution from the Port Talbot steelworks that smells like Sh** and in my street last year a woman ran down it with a knife plunged into her leg and a Welsh man drunk being chased by Policemen. Scotland my niece now lives there and the historical places are indeed nice places along with the highlands Beautiful as I remember as a child but.......It also has a very dark side which does not get into the press. If your a tourist make sure you stick to whats in the guide that isn't a exaggeration, its a fact. It's the same situation where ever you go in the Isles Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland. There is Light and Shade.....and This also goes for the rest of the world ....yes that also means America only difference is here in the British Isles we don't all carry guns and we've had thousands of years to understand why we don't wish too.
Our Isles have witnessed over the Millennia the full horror of human savagery, we don't have guns(only licenced) because we know the animal that would seek to wield it.
No Nation is pure, No nation is blameless all we do is learn from our mistakes and move on.

How an Alien Race may perceive the Human Race at the present time frame.............



[edit on 4-4-2010 by DreamerOracle]