Who founded Wicca, and was it planted by the NWO?

reply to post by Merriman Weir

No, I'm not creating a straw man, and see no need for this happening, since the discussion is quite abstract so far. The post I replied to did not specify your Christian paradigms, and as such it is natural to assume you meant the mainstream. But I'm glad that we may have been getting at the same idea in any case .

[edit on 3-4-2010 by halfoldman]

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

No, I'm not creating a straw man, and see no need for this happening, since the discussion is quite abstract so far. The post I replied to did not specify your Christian paradigms, and as such it is natural to assume you meant the mainstream. But I'm glad that we may have been getting at the same idea in any case.

No problem then! Genuine apologies for any misunderstandings.

The Judeo-Christian point aside, I'm not sure about the general thrust of the overall premise though. I think there's some conspiracies involved in Wicca but perhaps not the one you're suggesting. Firstly, there's the matriarchy and feminism focus in some groups, which to my mind, appear to run counter with much of the balance of what Gardner's wicca was meant to be about. That's not to mention some of the outright misandry I've come across over the years.

Secondly, there's the book factories like Llewellyn and so on, who, judging by some of the tat they've printed, are fleecing a particular demographic for all its worth. You could argue that commerce is manufacturing religious/magical beliefs in this, which is an interesting thought.

Thirdly, the Borg-like aspect of Wicca and its ability to literally assimilate anything. There's no practice or belief that's immune to this and there's something to be said about its relationship to another old bugbear of mine: 'Celtic'. I've long agreed with Tolkien's view about Celt being a magic bag where you can put anything in and take anything out. The same applies to Wicca as far as I'm concerned.

reply to post by Tiger5

Perhaps the "kitchen sink" stuff is where a lot of folk magic survived. My German granny had a spell to cure warts where you rubbed them with spit on the full moon and said a few words. She said this was "aberglaube" or superstition. But hey, it worked!
Many areas of Europe were still very "primitive" by the early 1900s.

Wicca in many ways is the female equivalent of freemasonry.

The lodges and covens get along just fine together.

Both practice their "craft".

Although they are different in many ways, there are also many parallels in the way they both work.

And both have gradually evolved from a crazy mixture of alchemy, the occult, ancient myths and legend, sorcery, and anything else that appears strange that they have absorbed into their rituals and secrets..

It is a kind of fake wisdom, you study all these secrets and practice much which is DEFINITELY anti Christian.

At the lowest levels it is just a bit of harmless fun. But at a much higher levels both involve demons and satanism, and both are very destructive to the human soul and spirituality.

Both are the complete antithesis of seeking out God..

reply to post by Merriman Weir

I've had an encounter with a local South African media personality witch (whom I won't mention), and I approached her as a fan, but I found her quite homophobic. This put me of the path for a long time. But then I heard that most Wiccans actually didn't like her at all.
So yeah, Wicca is open to abuse by powerful female personalities, but that's not a general teaching or anything.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Tiger5

 

Perhaps the "kitchen sink" stuff is where a lot of folk magic survived. My German granny had a spell to cure warts where you rubbed them with spit on the full moon and said a few words. She said this was "aberglaube" or superstition. But hey, it worked!
Many areas of Europe were still very "primitive" by the early 1900s.

But is that really witchcraft, let alone Wicca, as opposed to primitive medicine and where do you draw the line between witchcraft (and Wicca) and early medicinal practices? After all, much of these practices were continued long, long, long after Christian conversion and would have been practiced by more than happily self-identifying as 'Christians'.

On a similar tack, to me, that's perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the thankfully few these days 'Never Again the Burning Times' nonsense. The vast majority of those people killed (whatever the number) would have self-identified as Christian and would have been horrified to be appropriated by self-identified witches.

So, to me when people talk about this "kitchen sink" stuff, to me it's not really witchcraft and just stuff that people did, like cooking and cleaning. Pre-Conversion pagans also took a piss and a # but that doesn't make it a pagan practice despite the logic that some Wiccans like to use.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

I've had an encounter with a local South African media personality witch (whom I won't mention), and I approached her as a fan, but I found her quite homophobic. This put me of the path for a long time. But then I heard that most Wiccans actually didn't like her at all.
So yeah, Wicca is open to abuse by powerful female personalities, but that's not a general teaching or anything.

Whilst I'd agree that it's not 'general teaching' but it's surprising how a modern day invention that originally promoted a balance rather quickly became adopted by 'powerful female personalities'. Regarding my comments about the Borg-like nature of Wicca, it's interesting as to how many 'powerful female personalities' on both sides of the Atlantic are now heading various pagan groups.

Of particular concern to me are the female heathen writers and group leaders who have wiccan backgrounds and are wanting to mould heathenry into their own image - either knowingly or unknowingly. It's interesting/worrying how, over the last decade or so, heathenry seems to now have such a large focus on aspects of magical practice that are, to an extent, ring-fenced by gender rather than a religious practice that's accessible by both genders.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir It's interesting/worrying how, over the last decade or so, heathenry seems to now have such a large focus on aspects of magical practice that are, to an extent, ring-fenced by gender rather than a religious practice that's accessible by both genders.

Yes, both wica and masonry are about isolating people from happy inter gender relationships.
It is about undermining family values, community values, undermining state and church.
It is about self empowerment by means of occult practices and using the secret system.

reply to post by Merriman Weir

Healing herbs are definately a part of the witch's training. During medieval times the healing for disease was often blood-letting and burning crosses into people's foreheads. If one wanted something like a cure one had to go to the "wise woman". Strangely the herbal knowledge has survived, and even in the postcolonial world, where-ever tribes vanished their herbal knowledge was passed on to their mixed-race survivors. But witches could also poison and knew the hallucinogenic mystery plants (of the male secret societies). In Latin "Venifica" could mean "witch" or "poisoner".
I think that Murray's interest began with simple superstitious spells, and I would call that folk witchcraft. It is one aspect of witchcraft, and any witch would note such "spells" for posterity.



[edit on 3-4-2010 by halfoldman]

Actually Grant has written that Crowley met Gardener and did contribute to the rituals. There is also the use of Aos to create an arttifical elemental to retireve a woman that Gardener was enamoured of.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Healing herbs are definately a part of the witch's training. During medieval times the healing for disease was often blood-letting and burning crosses into people's foreheads. If one wanted something like a cure one had to go to the "wise woman". Strangely the herbal knowledge has survived, and even in the postcolonial world, where-ever tribes vanished their herbal knowledge was passed on to their mixed-race survivors. But witches could also poison and knew the hallucinogenic mystery plants (of the male secret societies). In Latin "Venificer" could mean witch or poisoner.
I think that Murray's interest began with simple superstitious spells, and I would call that folk witchcraft. It is one aspect of witchcraft, and any witch would note such "spells" for posterity.

You're missing my point, healing herbs might be part of a witches training, but they're not necessarily something specific to witches. As I said, this is just primitive medicine and was practiced by post-Conversion everyday folk that would have self-identified as Christians. As I pointed out, witches also had to #, cook and clean as with everyone else, but that doesn't make having a # witchcraft per se.

reply to post by Merriman Weir

I would say that this knowledge was specific to witches at that time. Witches knew of the only remedies and poisons that actually worked at the time. Otherwise the Latin term "Venifica" would not indicate poisoner or witch in most Romance languages. They also knew that some doses of plants could cure and other doses could have opposite effects. This was the power that male "doctors" wanted from them. I could also say "establishment doctors", since some "witches" were doubtlessly male (as in many cultures, possibly "gay" men).
So male heretics were burnt because they threatened the dogma of the church. Witches were first ignored, and most of the witch persecution had to do with second rate lawyers creating a new crime to rob land. Anyone suspected of witchcraft had to cede their land and monies to the church. (Pretty much like suddenly unemployed prohibition cops had to demonize cannabis after alcohol prohibition was repealed in the 1930s.) So no, I don't think they were fighting an organized Witchcraft religion - the ridiculous things they made people confess, like flying to black masses on toads and kissing Satan's goat-butt are testimony to the fantastical farce of extracting confession under torture. But I do think that the interest in confessing witches by people like King James suggests that they did have some information apart from the fantastical.
Sure, all these people were Christians. But since Christianity and local beliefs are blurred, "pure" Christianity needs the odd "cleansing".

"Witch" is very much an imposed label. Only the church will know why they applied it. At times simply owning a pet cat could make you a witch.



[edit on 3-4-2010 by halfoldman]

reply to post by baddmove


I could have sworn that Gerald Gardner was the inventor of Wicca, however Crowley was the inventor of The Golden dawn, and a couple of other religions as well. He actually went out and visited other countries to study their religions, then he took from each one and created The Golden Dawn. This is what i understand anyway.

Originally posted by mysticalzoe
reply to post by baddmove

 

I could have sworn that Gerald Gardner was the inventor of Wicca, however Crowley was the inventor of The Golden dawn, and a couple of other religions as well. He actually went out and visited other countries to study their religions, then he took from each one and created The Golden Dawn. This is what i understand anyway.

Crowley did not invent the GD. THe Secrets Chiefs (if the existed) did via Fraulein Sprengler and revealed it to Mathers. Mathers may have made it up as the coptic influences are non existant.

Gardener created the system called Gardenerian witchcraft. I have forgotten the full etymology of "WiccA" but the expression became en vogue in the 70s with the highly publicised actions of Alex Sanders.

Crowley did travel but his organisations were the OTO and the AA (which was never intended to be a physical order.


the Quasi Masonic elements of Wicca came a t a time when every decent gentleman was invited to be a mason and masonry had the ultimate but bogus lineage. Even in the early days gardener was a rabin elctectic occultist as was Crowley and Mathers.

However research does indicate that George Pickingsgill was a genuine conjuring man and did influence Gardener as did Old Dorothy so there was something before gardener.

Folk Magic has been an integral part of country lives even in Christian countries.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by ldyserenity

 

Well, good point and strong opinion, but doesn't that make it sound as if Wiccans are just anti-Christian? Isn't Wicca pretty much the same? The creed says harm none or it will return to you three-fold, Jesus said "judge not lest ye be judged"? Isn't it just the same moral core, with all the pagan symbols that co-opted Christian states hide in statues and semi-Pagan feasts like Easter (Ishtar)?
There is an African shaman called Credo Mutwa who claims that Jesus and the his entourage were shamans. So yes, I can see how contemporary Christianity can be seen as a censoring movement of its own pagan influences and origins.
But, were there European witches who survived the "burning times"? I'm not sure that I would dismiss all their narratives.
Wicca is pretty much an evolving, dynamic movement, so it seems it doesn't require "authenticty".

It may sound so, but we didn't genecide thousands in defending our faith nor convert anybody with a strong militia, just saying. I am not anti christian, I love them as all people, after all, my children are christians. Just stating a fact that we were the ones that were "taken over" by force to convert, it is indeed based on the oldest religions that existed, historically. Not opinion at all, but fact. It's them (the christians and small percentage of Jewish who control the world. both monotheistic religions based upon the same diatribe). To gain an NWO, you must control a large percentage of the world to begin with. And I don't buy into the Secret Society stuff, if it were true, nobody would have been burned for witchcraft or all the leaders would have been burned alongside the rest. IMO, but I may be wrong. I think they just use the rituals and symbolism (secret societies), to enlist those who would stay away from the christian religion and then they hammer the diatribe into your head, converting yet another who may have been led down this path. If that makes sense to you. Oh and especially those that show potential in the status quo of the elite; have you ever heard of a pagan or Wiccan CEO, aside from the bogus rumor that Procter and Gamble are Satanists?

reply to post by ldyserenity


"have you ever heard of a pagan or Wiccan CEO, aside from the bogus rumor that Procter and Gamble are Satanists? "

Good point

However I did read a book a few years ago that discussded a survey that indicated that 25% of UK Pagans sampled - not witches necessarily work in IT so there may be a lot of technies around.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by SteveR

 

Yes, doubtlessly aspects of it have a timeless quality. However, I'm beginning to doubt the authenticity of the Book of Shadows, or the general charge of the goddess, the oath of secrecy and other aspects.
W That does strike me as a bit odd, particularly Gardner's timing.

All made up man. ANyway Gardener was interested in Nudity and Kinky sex just ask the old guard that are still alive. Sadly they could not just be swingers but needed a bit of religion hoiked in.

Really I can barely function Skyclad in a summer night much less in bleak midwinter.

Originally posted by Tiger5
reply to post by ldyserenity

 

"have you ever heard of a pagan or Wiccan CEO, aside from the bogus rumor that Procter and Gamble are Satanists? "

Good point

However I did read a book a few years ago that discussded a survey that indicated that 25% of UK Pagans sampled - not witches necessarily work in IT so there may be a lot of technies around.

WOW. I have to laugh at that one, because you see, I am attending classes online, you guessed it IT classes.
And another pagan to add to the techie crowd.I've always wondered why it seemed the lab chic, don't know the characters name, you know, the goth-ish one from NCIS, I always wondered why they put her in the show portrayed as I would say, Pagan-ish.And she is kind of techie right? Now I guess I know why. lol.

reply to post by halfoldman


Well Back in the 70s magazine like LOT had a rabid fight over gay occultists in General so maybe she was part of the old guard but everyone conveniently forgot that was Alex Sanders was openly bisexual.