We need more science fans on here. How though?

Originally posted by orangutang
reply to post by seangkt

 

you may be able to enlighten me. i love science too but doubt some of their cherished theories.

First I'd like to state the reason these theories are all accepted and used as answers. In order for a theory to become an official theory it must follow a set of 4 maybe 5 rules or guidelines. Once more than one theory is made involving a specific subject they question which one more closely follows our laws of nature.

In physics a theory is a bit different then a normal theory. It is more so a mathematical calculation using certain postulates.

i've never believed since birth that the sun is powered by nuclear fusion. some scientific theories just ring false to me. i think its something totally different like an aerial for incoming energy. perhaps spirit to matter.

The use of the phrase since birth is a little overboard. I do believe it is nuclear fusion powering the sun. An inescapable byproduct of nuclear fusion are neutrinos. Using proper tools we saw these solar neutrinos.
There was a big question about this theory because at one point the amount of neutrinos estimated to be seen wasn't being met. Eventually after a few years of debate it was decided that the loss of neutrinos was due to neutrino oscillation, which converted the neutrinos into something else. There are still some who don't really buy this but it is accepted by almost all.

is there any evidence for the existence of black holes? its just excepted today without question and yet began years ago with a hypothesis.

Black holes are still a theory and have been debated by some of the most brilliant minds there are. A black hole is basically an invisible star. Since we have no real way of seeing this we look for evidence of them in by watching the effects of a supposed black hole on the stars and gas around it. To say it is accepted without question is far from right.

and the big bang? bandied around frequently with the daily newspapers but many scientists do not support it. but even if it was true, there is no explanation as to its genesis.

I personally question the big bang theory myself. My biggest reasons for questioning it are these. The idea of the big bang theory works only in an expanding universe. Scientists discovered what is being called "Dark Flow" which has to do with galaxy clusters moving independently against the direction of universal expansion.

Another reason I question the big bang theory is the lhc. I personally don't believe that if we think so strongly this is how it all begin, we would try to recreate similar collisions and gamble with possible consequences.
Of course I could ask what was before but that question isn't the greatest question, in my opinion, when questioning the reality of the big bang theory.

Originally posted by orangutang
reply to post by seangkt

 

you may be able to enlighten me. i love science too but doubt some of their cherished theories.

i've never believed since birth that the sun is powered by nuclear fusion. some scientific theories just ring false to me. i think its something totally different like an aerial for incoming energy. perhaps spirit to matter.

is there any evidence for the existence of black holes? its just excepted today without question and yet began years ago with a hypothesis.

and the big bang? bandied around frequently with the daily newspapers but many scientists do not support it. but even if it was true, there is no explanation as to its genesis.

your comments will be appreciated.

It's posts like these that make me not want to participate in science threads. People deny scientific theories when they don't even understand the slightest thing about them. Spirit to matter instead of hydrogen fusion? Look, if you're going to come up with asinine theories and deny the evidence, the least you can do is actually study and understand the real data before making claims like this.

If you're going to write off empirical evidence like this, you're also going to have to disprove the evidence or come up with a better theory, otherwise you're just ignorant.

By the way, black holes are still a debated issue, but if you understood stellar evolution at all, you would realize that it's the best model we have so far. And you're free to come up with a better explanation, but you first need to understand why we use black holes as the answer to the question. We cannot view them directly, no, but we can see the affects that these monstrous gravitation fields have on their surroundings (gravitational lensing, accretion disks, large x-ray / radio sources emissions, etc.) and there is no other object that can be used to explain this phenomena at this time.

We don't just pull ideas out of our asses without evidence to support the idea.

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely


It's posts like these that make me not want to participate in science threads. People deny scientific theories when they don't even understand the slightest thing about them. Spirit to matter instead of hydrogen fusion? Look, if you're going to come up with asinine theories and deny the evidence, the least you can do is actually study and understand the real data before making claims like this.

If you're going to write off empirical evidence like this, you're also going to have to disprove the evidence or come up with a better theory, otherwise you're just ignorant.

By the way, black holes are still a debated issue, but if you understood stellar evolution at all, you would realize that it's the best model we have so far. And you're free to come up with a better explanation, but you first need to understand why we use black holes as the answer to the question. We cannot view them directly, no, but we can see the affects that these monstrous gravitation fields have on their surroundings (gravitational lensing, accretion disks, large x-ray / radio sources emissions, etc.) and there is no other object that can be used to explain this phenomena at this time.

We don't just pull ideas out of our asses without evidence to support the idea.

Well....

....this is what is wrong with ATS in general, according to many members.

Why do you feel the need to call this persons beliefs "asinine"? Sure, it may be total hogwash...it may not. But calling them names, or insinuating that they are stupid because they lack faith in an establishment (i, too,lack faith in "science" due to glaringly obvious issues...think Global Warming) is the epitome of trolling.

I realize that some people feel that it is their sole duty in life to correct people. I know that someone being wrong on the internet is far more than some can bear. It is people like this who may wish to cancel forum memberships to preserve their own mental health, as well as avoid beating up on posters that are otherwise happy with their notions, as misguided as they may be.

In short: be kinder than necessary. Everyone has their own challenges.

reply to post by ashanu90


did you say Carl Sagan?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by DisappearCompletely


I think you might be overreacting a bit. I don't mean to be offensive but I believe if you are going to deny a scientific theory over the internet it should be done so with evidence or at least proper grammar. He lacked both but he didn't really attack them as much as he stated he didn't believe them and asked questions that could change his view on the topics.

In one post about the lhc collisions one guy had the nerve to straight say Hawking Radiation was fake and went on to say science is proving religion right more and more. I would project future animosity towards users like that haha.

Originally posted by seangkt
reply to post by DisappearCompletely

 

I think you might be overreacting a bit. I don't mean to be offensive but I believe if you are going to deny a scientific theory over the internet it should be done so with evidence or at least proper grammar. He lacked both but he didn't really attack them as much as he stated he didn't believe them and asked questions that could change his view on the topics.

In one post about the lhc collisions one guy had the nerve to straight say Hawking Radiation was fake and went on to say science is proving religion right more and more. I would project future animosity towards users like that haha.

Anomosity has absolutely no place in civil discourse.

If i were to expect such behavior, i would be giving in and saying that people are not capable of self control.

It is not anyones place on ATS to tell someone how stupid they are.

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely

(i, too,lack faith in "science" due to glaringly obvious issues...think Global Warming) is the epitome of trolling.

Global warming is one of the worst reasons ever to lack faith in science. No offense but many people who believe science is lying or trolling, are often people who have not taken time to fully study and understand the science.
I am in no way trying to say you don't know anything but theories in physics are mostly mathematically determined and for anyone without proper knowledge of the math or at least a firm understanding of the whole theory (by this I mean they understand what is going on, to an extent, in the process but couldn't sit and calculate the math or how the theory came to be on their own) is indeed what ignorance is.

As far as that guy above who stated he didn't believe the theories. He used excepted instead of accepted. "ive never believed since birth" was also another phrase he used. When people that lack basic educational skills and say they don't believe certain scientific theories, created by PhD level physicists for no good reason other than because, it is extremely annoying.

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


It is not anyones place on ATS to tell someone how stupid they are.

If this was in response to my judging of another's grammar, no one was told they were stupid. I simply mentioned that his lack of proper grammar, in the moment and given the subject, were not the greatest start when claiming a theory isn't true. Stupid is drunk driving and killing an innocent person. Lack of proper grammar doesn't mean you're stupid at all. I have listened to New York hip hop my whole life and when I am around most friends I tend to use slang and don't obey the rules of grammar as much as when I am speaking on topics such as these. There are time when I am around my friends and speak like now as well.

I believe that if you are going to comment on topics with an educational magnitude such as these, you should know that writing,"I haven't believed since birth" is not the best way to present yourself. Especially when denying extremely thought out and well researched theories.

Also as far as projecting animosity towards others goes, it has nothing to do with self control. I have all the self control in the world but sometimes when I've had enough of a certain persons pov or when I see something that I feel deserves it, I have no problem ripping someone a new one.

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

Originally posted by seangkt

If this was in response to my judging of another's grammar, no one was told they were stupid. If I would have said this idiot can't spell and is spewing out illiterate nonsense things would have been different.

But I believe that if you are going to comment on topics with an educational magnitude such as these, you should know that writing,"I haven't believed since birth" is not the best way to present yourself. Especially when denying extremely thought out and researched theories.

Also as far as projecting animosity towards others goes, it has nothing to do with self control. I have all the self control in the world but sometimes when I've had enough or when I see something that I feel deserves it, I have no problem ripping someone a new one.

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

I have a few thoughts on this:

- I am a businessman. One of the key management principles that I have in place is "Assume positive intent". If someone says something, i try to see it in the best possible light until i can ascertain intentions. Spelling would be the same.

- this is an international community. Most don't speak English primarily if they are from other non-English countries. ArMaP is a good example.


- My dad was a high school dropout and he couldn't read/write really well. However, he was highly intelligent and capable of high level calculus based on his own intellect. He was bright, but couldn't write.

- My uncle has had a brain trauma. Since this brain trauma, his ability to read/write has gotten exponentially worse. It is like having dyslexia, but to the "Nth" degree.

I would say that assuming positive intent would prevent me from looking like a total fool when i "rip someone a new one" because i feel like they "deserve" it for not having good spelling and grammar skills (even if English was their native language).

To feel someone "deserves" to be "ripped a new one" over grammatical errors smacks of snobbery and elitism. No thank you, i do not wish to participate. I strongly encourage you to reconsider.

I will say that people may or may not wish to present themselves in a better light given the nature of the subject being discussed. That is not for me to say. I know that if i am in public and someone who is mentally challenged or "touched" is spouting off some crazy nonsense, i do not feel it is my place to correct them. Instead, i do what is polite: i walk away and rob them of their audience. Perhaps this is a more civilized for you to "rip a new one" to someone who is not as lucky as some other members in the diction department.

Originally posted by seangkt

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely

(i, too,lack faith in "science" due to glaringly obvious issues...think Global Warming) is the epitome of trolling.

Global warming is one of the worst reasons ever to lack faith in science. No offense but many people who believe science is lying or trolling, are often people who have not taken time to fully study and understand the science.
I am in no way trying to say you don't know anything but theories in physics are mostly mathematically determined and for anyone without proper knowledge of the math or at least a firm understanding of the whole theory (by this I mean they understand what is going on, to an extent, in the process but couldn't sit and calculate the math or how the theory came to be on their own) is indeed what ignorance is.

As far as that guy above who stated he didn't believe the theories. He used excepted instead of accepted. "ive never believed since birth" was also another phrase he used. When people that lack basic educational skills and say they don't believe certain scientific theories, created by PhD level physicists for no good reason other than because, it is extremely annoying.

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

I already addressed, in my prior post, my feelings on this as it relates to a perception of elitism and snobbery. I will save you from having to endure that twice.

I used Global Warming because it is the easiest example, and would provide the least amount of argument. I could have put forth the current GR model of the universe, juxtaposed with the Plasma Cosmology model that I ascribe to. Or "the big bang theory" with my own favorite, "Brane Theory".

Lets not bog ourselves down in specifics unrelated to the overall issue.

I would posit that if the average person is not understanding science, it is less that persons fault and more the fault of science and education.

The material is presented in such a dry format that many do not lack the fortitude to sit through classes in math. Add to this that science does all it can to discourage participation from the "layman." The discouragement method of choice? The elitism and snobbery that I am talking about in this thread.

What easier way to discourage TRUE knowledge than to make prospective participants feel too stupid to participate?

reply to post by seangkt


as an aside, i do not believe i was referring to you. I could have been....but was referring to a more generic membership that acts in the way that i am trying to shame.

Perhaps that shoe fits, perhaps not. I am not going to judge an individual in this way during this thread.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Alright "businessman"........I strongly encourage you to understand and comprehend what was written before making remarks like "To feel someone "deserves" to be "ripped a new one" over grammatical errors smacks of snobbery and elitism. No thank you, i do not wish to participate. I strongly encourage you to reconsider. "

I haven't ripped this guy a new one nor have I anyone else for not using proper grammar. I don't know if you noticed but I defended the guy, yes I did point out his bad grammar, but I defended him. I didn't even say lack of proper grammar was a good cause to rip somebody a new one anywhere in this conversation. If I had to say anyone here was stupid it would now be you for accusing me of saying things that were never said.

Also I don't know where explaining that your dad was a drop out who had problems with writing but good at math comes into play but I dropped out in 10th grade with straight A's. No big deal. This had nothing to do with the argument.

My problem is that people hear of a theory and deny it without knowing anything about the subject. If you are going to make accusations as strong as them you should have a knowledge of the area. Once you have made these accusations you should be ready to be ridiculed. I pointed out the bad grammar saying that it didn't help the guys situation.

If he would have had good reasons why he denied them as well as his bad grammar I would have looked right past it. All I said was it didn't help his argument.

But 5 key points from all that.
1. I defended this guy but pointed out his grammar didn't help the situation when the guy got all crazy on him. I even answered the questions he asked in a nice friendly manner.
2. No where did I mention it was alright to rip someone a new one for grammatical errors. It was stupid to say I did.
3. I believe if you are going to knock a scientific theory without any knowledge of it at all, bad grammar doesn't really make you look any better.
4. Up until pointing out your stupidity I ever once attacked a persons iq just an ability to write. When talking verbally most people who can't write speak quite proper.
5. Your words no longer mean anything to me after this because you have shown me that you take a situation, without reading all that was written or understanding it, I'm not sure which it was, and you choose to make false accusations in an attempt to try and lecture me.

So please do go back and read what was actually said and then do me a favor and kick yourself hard for looking dumb.

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

Science is difficult for many people. People in general don't go into science for this reason. It takes alot of effort and patience. Something I'm afraid a great deal of people are not endowed with.

They see the equations and run for the hills. It just not the target audience here at ATS. With other sites like physorg , physicsforums, sciforums, etc etc there is a huge market of sci/tech related boards.

The boards here are "conspiracy" related ie time travel, parallel worlds, the simulation hypothesis. I find myself posting on other science forums quite often, but here you can have an actuall discussion with people who aren't just going to tear everything apart with numbers.

People here have imaginations and creativity. A trait lacking in alot of the followers of modern scientific paradigm. The best part about ATS is it's more casual (for lack of abetter word). People have been trying to get others interested in science for centuries with little success. Which leads me to the conclusion that it's just not for everyone.

Very few people are a Brian Greene, or Michio Kaku, or Nick Bostrom. Scientist aren't always the most articulate people when trying to describe very complex ideas. So I would say don't worry about it. Enjoy ATS for what it is. If you want something different I asure it's out there .

reply to post by seangkt


thanks for those replys.

"since birth" should really be "my earliest consideration of the matter" i guess. pre-teen or early teen as near as i can figure. i was interested in space travel in the 40's.

the "oscillating neutrinos" theory is what annoys me with science sometimes.
they use it to justify their previous accepted theory.

This is turning into an argument, and that isn't my desire. I hope i can clarify this issue for you here.

Originally posted by seangkt

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Alright "businessman"........I strongly encourage you to understand and comprehend what was written before making remarks like "To feel someone "deserves" to be "ripped a new one" over grammatical errors smacks of snobbery and elitism. No thank you, i do not wish to participate. I strongly encourage you to reconsider. "

I apologize. I thought we were discussing the issue philosophically. It is why i clarified by stating:

as an aside, i do not believe i was referring to you. I could have been....but was referring to a more generic membership that acts in the way that i am trying to shame.

Perhaps that shoe fits, perhaps not. I am not going to judge an individual in this way during this thread.

I was under the impression you were presenting me fodder for a philosophical debate about the behavior of the membership.

I haven't ripped this guy a new one nor have I anyone else for not using proper grammar. I don't know if you noticed but I defended the guy, yes I did point out his bad grammar, but I defended him. I didn't even say lack of proper grammar was a good cause to rip somebody a new one anywhere in this conversation. If I had to say anyone here was stupid it would now be you for accusing me of saying things that were never said.

I must have misunderstood. In your post, you discuss poor grammar and how that negatively impacts the perception of the quality of that thread. Then you summarize by talking about "ripping a new one". Perhaps you didn't imply what i was inferring. Perhaps it was a grammatical error. I do not know....like i said, i was discussing this philosophically, using your post as a launch point for the philosophical debate.

But I will take note of your use of the word "stupid" as a descriptive of myself, and assume that my talk of "assuming positive intent" went unread.

Also I don't know where explaining that your dad was a drop out who had problems with writing but good at math comes into play but I dropped out in 10th grade with straight A's. No big deal. This had nothing to do with the argument.

We were talking about poor grammar. He had poor grammar. Did thta make his opinions less important?

That is what i was getting at.

My problem is that people hear of a theory and deny it without knowing anything about the subject. If you are going to make accusations as strong as them you should have a knowledge of the area. Once you have made these accusations you should be ready to be ridiculed. I pointed out the bad grammar saying that it didn't help the guys situation.

And this is where we disagree. One should NEVER be told to prepare themselves for ridicule. This is the snobbery i refer to.

Ridicule is not often going to be a good approach. I could explain why, but will assume that you are familiar with simple concepts such as "The Golden Rule" and treating others with respect. Both of these ingredients are critical if you are trying to serve up a dish of civility.

If he would have had good reasons why he denied them as well as his bad grammar I would have looked right past it. All I said was it didn't help his argument.

I notice that you have been here for at least a year...have you not noticed how international this site is? Grammar is nothing to judge someone by, at least not on this site. Never. No how. It is like making fun of a hispanic person for calling a "chair" a "share".

If you want to point out his grammar, why not do so privately via a U2U? What does he have to gain from public ridicule?

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

But 5 key points from all that.
1. I defended this guy but pointed out his grammar didn't help the situation when the guy got all crazy on him. I even answered the questions he asked in a nice friendly manner.
2. No where did I mention it was alright to rip someone a new one for grammatical errors. It was stupid to say I did.
3. I believe if you are going to knock a scientific theory without any knowledge of it at all, bad grammar doesn't really make you look any better.
4. Up until pointing out your stupidity I ever once attacked a persons iq just an ability to write. When talking verbally most people who can't write speak quite proper.
5. Your words no longer mean anything to me after this because you have shown me that you take a situation, without reading all that was written or understanding it, I'm not sure which it was, and you choose to make false accusations in an attempt to try and lecture me.

So please do go back and read what was actually said and then do me a favor and kick yourself hard for looking dumb.

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

[edit on 1-4-2010 by seangkt]

I have little to add in reply to this ad hominem, other than what i have already added. I am sorry you think I am stupid or dumb. Perhaps you should read more into my concept of 'assuming positive intent"?

Originally posted by orangutang
reply to post by seangkt

 

thanks for those replys.

"since birth" should really be "my earliest consideration of the matter" i guess. pre-teen or early teen as near as i can figure. i was interested in space travel in the 40's.

Hahaha. Space travel is what got me started.

the "oscillating neutrinos" theory is what annoys me with science sometimes.
they use it to justify their previous accepted theory.

You know I kind of got that idea too. It almost seems like they made the theory, some time passes, something occurs that causes predicted numbers to shift either a minute or dramatic amount, and rather than going back reworking the whole problem to find where they messed up, they just come up with a void to fill the gap.

I almost felt like this when I first heard about Fritz Zwicky and dark matter as well. I tend to come across theories like this and instantly think how much they sound like lazy shortcuts. After a certain amount of time I tend to realize I see enough valid points in them and just say alright.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Well....

....this is what is wrong with ATS in general, according to many members.

Why do you feel the need to call this persons beliefs "asinine"? Sure, it may be total hogwash...it may not. But calling them names, or insinuating that they are stupid because they lack faith in an establishment (i, too,lack faith in "science" due to glaringly obvious issues...think Global Warming) is the epitome of trolling.

I realize that some people feel that it is their sole duty in life to correct people. I know that someone being wrong on the internet is far more than some can bear. It is people like this who may wish to cancel forum memberships to preserve their own mental health, as well as avoid beating up on posters that are otherwise happy with their notions, as misguided as they may be.

In short: be kinder than necessary. Everyone has their own challenges.

Because they are. People write off hundreds and sometimes thousands of years worth of evidence towards science simply because it doesn't fit into their narrow dogmatic view of life. To write things off like this without even the slightest understanding of them is, in my opinion, the epitome of trolling, except it's a much more destructive form because these ignorant views (most of which, fail to even correct themselves and refuse to enlighten themselves with the empirical data) seep into society and create a muddy view of what science is.

Look at all the IDers trying to incorporate creationism into the curriculum with absolutely no evidence to back up their claims. They even changed the definition of science itself in Kansas. It's a vile plague that is going to affect generations to come if this ridiculous ignorance isn't halted.

Offer us an idea of all the amazing jobs, and knowledge we can obtain from studying science.

Start a topless science bar.

Sex brings them in every time.

Can't guarantee the quality of patrons though.

Kinky sex probably brings in the higher IQs though.
At least the creative variant thinkers.

Hello from a new member and budding phisisist (sorry for the spelling). while im not a trained scientist yet thats thd career path i'm taking - GCSEs today tomorow the world. althougth i'm not up to scrach with the maths yet i have a broad knowlege of most physics theorys (supersymetry,string theory etc). to me the problem here is not one of ats but of socity, for most people in my class science is quite dull due to how it's portrayed in school - too much is over simpifyed or glosed over to fit the 'teachijg to the exam' practice of most schools meaning the bits like the solar system are skiped to fit in stemcell ethics and anti climate change spiel. oh and newscientist needs page 3 girls, that would definately get some intrest! but seriously maths xoes quite well by being a bit toung in cheek with things like the pi song - mabey briqn cox (manchester uni) could write a parody of the killers blackholes and revelations?