Socialism is NOT a bad thing

reply to post by Subjective Truth


I like you so please do not try to shove me into a box and label it.

reply to post by rusethorcain


You labeled yourself? I am only using your words to try and find the truth in what you say. Please do not be mad I meant no offence.


But you have to understand when you say that you are a progressive I have a mindset about them because I know the history and also what is currently going on. Obama considers himself a progressive and have you heard what he thinks of the constitution. Trust me it is not what the founders had in mind.



Well anyway I hope you are not mad me. I also like and respect your opinion.

[edit on 29-3-2010 by Subjective Truth]

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by mackey1224uk
If youre health care system goes the same way the NHS has in the last fifteen years, America's in big trouble.. The goverment doesnt care about anyone but themselfs and always have. (FACT) "

There's more irony in this post than in I need for my RDA. Saved myself the price of some brown rice and curly kale, thanks.

The real problem with the NHS is that, ironically for your post and for all the posters on here intent on using 'NHS horror stories' as a bogeyman for socialist nightmare to the come, it's becoming more like the American system in that, due to Private Finance Initiatives, we're slowly getting an NHS that is being privatised by the back door. The same goes for schools and prisons &c. (FACT). This socialist state we're living in is anything. Anyone who tows this line is ignorant beyond belief.

Seriously Mackey, if you want to check-out a real bona fide conspiracy, one that people are blind to and never gets the coverage that it deserves as it's costing the British taxpayer £billions every year, look into the Private Finance Initiative Scheme scams. "

Well I was a consultant to one of the biggest PFI hospitals in the UK. All you say is perfectly true. A simple trick to look at is to follow the major accounting firms and see where they crop up. There is a riduculous reverence paid to the management consultant and boy do they charge. Who honestly believes the pure piffle that the private sector knows best?? Given the explosion in education many NHS people can actually stand up to these people and teach them a thing or two. Yet I have sat in meetings and heard the big four spout the bleedin obvious and sensible people have just fallen on their backs in awe. Meanwhile I have been trying to empower them to get on with it themselves because I have a social conscience.

What Americans did not understand about our NHS was after the war class tensions ran high and the years of wartime austerity and fear had britain teetering on the brink of marxist revolution as Marxian theory of capital was particulalry relevant. The solution was to "make a country fit for heroes" and viola the NHS was born along with other social care initiatives.


[edit on 29-3-2010 by Tiger5]

[edit on 29-3-2010 by Tiger5]

It certainly isn't a bad thing. Problem is, not everyone wants to live in a socialist society. So...

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


The man shoving words into my mouth and creating straw men left and right is accusing me of sophistry? Hilarious.

I actually wasn't trying to imply anything against capitalism in any of my previous posts, and I was not trying at all to be deceptive to you or any other person on this forum. I am not ashamed at all of being a socialist. As such I have no need for nefarious twisting of my ideology. I will come right out and say it:

Yes, progressive taxation takes a higher percentage of income from the wealthier than it does the poorer. With no begrudging or shame I support this form of taxation. I believe that those making more can afford to pay more so as to better aid their fellow citizen. I believe that taxes should be mandatory for those whom generate income and partake in any benefit that the government bestows.

I put the good of the many before the good of the few, I am a socialist. I'm a member of the Labour party (as much as I disagree with them on some key issues.)

I never claimed anything otherwise. Being a socialist though and not a Communist, I still believe in a private market going hand in hand with government. National versus private nature for an industry (or even a given company) must be done on a case by case basis.

I think the real difference here between us is that I do not believe the Invisible Hand works uniformly throughout an economic structure, so government acts to regulate and balance industry when it becomes in the public interest to do so.

I trust government to regulate business some of the time. I do not trust businesses or the markets to regulate themselves all of the time.

I believe that all of the above is where socialists and libertarians fundamentally disagree.

You do not need to put words in my mouth, such as bringing up a major point (individuality, competition, capitalism) and accuse me of plotting against it when I did not even bring it up until after your accusation.

You also do not need to make blanket false statements such as "there is no SCOTUS ruling that has overturned the long held belief that the individual has the right to self determination" which is just absolute nonsense and you know it. If the Supreme Court held that every individual had the right to pure self-determination no one would ever be convicted of breaking any law because the enforcement of punishment is an external compulsory.

Citizens in the United States and the United Kingdom are not sovereign nations unto themselves.

I was reading up on Wikipedia tonight a history of tax protest in the United States as I am interviewing a group of such people tomorrow. A beautiful quote I found on one of the pages dealing with response to "sovereign citizens" was from the US 7th District Court in 1986:

"Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest."

reply to post by DocEmrick


paradox is how can you call it a society if there is no social bond between its inhabitants ?

and if there is no bond between its inhabitants how can you call it a union , state , nation, republic etc etc etc ...?


point is society is socialism , your basic family lives a communistic life daily sharing shores and provissions,


if taking money payed by tax money and putting it to public use is called socialism
then all black budgets and armies and what not is equaly socialistic and socialized in the same sence.

its a frikking interaction , a basic daily motion of human interaction between more then 1

its just a mind game on sharing and politicians just play on words, just paradoxes and word play

Originally posted by Tiger5
Well I was a consultant to one of the biggest PFI hospitals in the UK. All you say is perfectly true. A simple trick to look at is to follow the major accounting firms and see where they crop up. There is a riduculous reverence paid to the management consultant and boy do they charge.

We've just a 'management consultant' come in. She was/is paid more per day than the combined office she was 'shadowing' was paid a week. Her conclusions was to shut down this particular office. It's being replaced with a team of people she's previously worked with in another area. It was very handy that she already knew some people to step into the breach at short notice, wasn't it?

What's worse, despite being paid a King's Ransom, her other suggestions for change are things that other staff members have called for previously - for nothing.

Who honestly believes the pure piffle that the private sector knows best??

Americans?

It's become the unmentionable at our place. Everyone knows where the problems are but no one is in a position to actually change things. My Trust has some fantastic problems that are all, essentially, top-down problems arising from unbelievably bad management. The problem is that the management is more or less untouchable and there's scapegoats left, right and centre that are getting the blame.

Meanwhile I have been trying to empoer them to get on with it themselves because I have a social conscience.

No room for that when it comes to PFI. All that matters is the sound of till as the next round of drinks for the board is paid for.

What Americans did not understand about our NHS was after the war class tensions ran high and the years of wartime austerity and fear had britain teetering on the brink of marxist revolution as Marxian theory of capital was particulalry relevant. The solution was to "make a country fit for heroes" and viola the NHS was born along with other social care initiatives.

Actually, Americans don't actually understand anything about the NHS. ATS, if being in anyway representative is proof of that.

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
Every day I see more and more people complaining about Obama's "socialist state". I happen to live in a country often derided by Americans for being socialist (Canada). We've got none of the partisan division or healthcare debate of the US, and I really attribute this to the political system we have in place.

Communism is a flawed system, as the people have no power. Democratic socialism, on the other hand, is one of the best political systems in the world. Deregulation of key institutions by the government in a capitalist state like the US resulted in massive economic disasters, including price gouging, monopolies and the current banking fiasco. In a country where government regulation is still enforced, economic tribulations have far less effect, as the government can stabilize financial institutions by tightening up laws.

Healthcare is another issue. Government-funded health systems result in better care, and less chance of financial ruin for those afflicted with illnesses like cancer and chronic diseases. In a capitalist, insurance-based health system, the poor have no chance to survive illness.

Well, I hope this convinces some of you to stop Socialist-bashing.

I agree with you here, especially with the healthcare. i think the insurance companies that have made record profits for so long really hated to see this thing pass. I also believe they spent alot of money through the MSM confusing people about things in the bill. It astounds me the number of people who are lower income that would actually be benefited by this thing who are so violently against it. Gotta love us Americans, home of the disillusioned free and the ignorantly brave. It seems like we could maybe take some of the better elements from socialism and capitolism instead of being one or the other.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by ShadeWolf]

[edit on 29-3-2010 by ghostsoldier78]

Well, to address the issue of morality, unless a person was brought up by wolves as some kind of wilderness dweller, then the vast bulk of everything they are & will become, have had, have & will get, is the result of cooperation from other people. It is perfectly right then for others to expect an individual to pay forward to enable that cooperation to continue. The question becomes, how much should we pay & how should it be administered? Important factors are just what we expect from cooperation, economies of scale & personal motivation.
Money works well for the latter. Its obvious why, as there is a clear connection between what we do & what we get. We've seen what happens to command economies! Money also creates a motive for dishonesty tho &, vast wealth, a means & motive to prevent others from doing the same. What is the point of being rich if it brings no advantage, because others are the same? The protection of individuals against the problems inherent in capitalism is the essence of socialism.
For myself, what I expect from society is that, after taking reasonable steps to provide for the welfare of my family & I, society fosters an environment where that welfare will not be trammelled arbitrarily. For this reason, regardless of morals, I accept that those less fortunate must be looked after with a minimum standard of living that prevents despair, otherwise they will just help themselves to my stuff, having nothing to lose. We cannot afford the level of policing that would be required to prevent this. Much better to just give people benefits & healthcare. There are some for whom this will be short term help. Others may take advantage. So what? I'd rather be safer & a little poorer than moralist & forced to endure even more heavy handed police & violent criminals.
Economies of scale speaks for itself. Imo, the trick is to find those services which, by their nature, provide a benefit to us all, including boosting productivity, & run them nationally. Leave everything else to the market.

reply to post by Bunken Drum


Hear, hear! well said.

once again, its not like if your not in a socialist state you pay no taxes...A Socialist government just spends it on things decided, largely, by public opinion. Granted there will always be a level of corruption, through "donations" to political parties, but as its been happening since the beginning of empirical history, we can safely say its not the fault of socialism..

Well, if there is one good thing about this health care mandate, it's that many people will not be able to afford it, and so they won't be buying other crap instead, and that will help to crash this bogus economy and our ponzi currency.

There are a lot of people that think they can't afford health insurance, but that's only because they have already spent their money on a new car payments, itoys, teevees, cable/satellite, internet access, christmas presents, and other needless crapola.

The people that apparently want this will only be worse off because of this and I find that hilarious. TEACH! The people that think this socialist crap will fly in america are going to be in for a rude awakening when they start feeling the consequences of this crap.

BTW, now we also have a VALID reason to be upset with FAT unhealthy people. When you see one, know that they are costing you tens of thousands of dollars!

Socialism is a very nice system. I don't understand people who are afreid of it. Why would you be afreid of free healthcare, a good welfare system that allows poor people to get into the community again instead of rotten up in the streets, job security, over or about 6 weeks of paid vacation and free education to name a few.
Ofcourse socialism has it's bad sides as well. But it is still a very very good system.

Here is a little funny quote I read in the local newspaper a couple of weeks ago:

Capitalism is when you have two cows, sell one of them and buy yourself a bull.
Communism is when you have two cows and the state then takes your cows and gives you the milk.
Socialism is when you have two cows and give your neighbour one of them.
Bureaucracy is when you have two cows, and while you are sitting and having tea, the state comes by and milks your cows, shoots one of them and pour the milk out onto the ground.

Originally posted by VikingDude
Socialism is a very nice system. I don't understand people who are afreid of it. Why would you be afreid of free healthcare, a good welfare system that allows poor people to get into the community again instead of rotten up in the streets, job security, over or about 6 weeks of paid vacation and free education to name a few.

Because there is a lot of greed and selfishness in the US it seems... from watching the news and reading threads here.

It's the attitude of "I can afford it for myself, I don't need any free stuff so why should I have to help anyone else out?"

I've been quite surprised that so many on here have that opinion.... not shocked at all... but surprised by ATS members being like that.

Originally posted by VikingDude
Why would you be afreid of free healthcare, ...

So far, that's the funniest thing I've heard today. Free? You're just trying to be sarcastic, facetious, aren't you. Nothing is free, doctors don't work for free, hospitals and their staff are not for free. You see, that's the problem with people like you and so many others, you all think stuff is free, and/or believe others should be paying YOUR cost of living expenses. That's immoral.

Socialism doesn't work! Wait, you'll see. The US is not the paradise upon this planet that it once was, there are many other places the people you think you can enslave to pay your cost of living expenses can pack up and move too. The rich can still make big money on all you too. They have already moved their businesses overseas .. the only thing left is for them to move themselves overseas.

Obama has killed america. Rest in peace bloodsuckers, rest in peace. This health care bill will only make you all poorer. Wait, you'll see.

People that take advantage of others are ass holes, be them the lazy poor as well as the motivated wealthy.

[edit on 29-3-2010 by Divinorumus]

Originally posted by Divinorumus
People that take advantage of others are ass holes, be them the lazy poor as well as the motivated wealthy.

[edit on 29-3-2010 by Divinorumus]

What about the poor that aren't lazy? It's not as if all poor people are lazy by any means. How do they fit into this?

Originally posted by blupblup
Because there is a lot of greed and selfishness in the US it seems... from watching the news and reading threads here.

No kidding. And THIS is why socialism won't work here in america .. most people are immoral thieves and they will grab as much of someone else's money and stuff as they can. Americans are turning into thieves, from defaulting on their loans, to ripping others off to pay their living expenses. What an immoral nation this has become.

I'm going to declare this nation is no longer under any god. One nation, under satan, is more like it now. what a bunch of immoral thieves we have become in this nation.

It's the attitude of "I can afford it for myself, I don't need any free stuff so why should I have to help anyone else out?"

That's not it at all and you know it. It's more like this: don't tell me what I MUST do for you, and keep your damn thieving fingers out of my pockets.

How do you commies sleep at night, knowing that you're a bunch of thieves, living off of someone else's blood, sweat, and tears, hum? Do you not have a conscience? Charity is only charity when it's voluntary. This mandate is a theft, an immoral jack.

I've been quite surprised that so many on here have that opinion.... not shocked at all... but surprised by ATS members being like that.

You should feel proud to realize that there are so many independent self-responsible people here that would rather not want to become immoral thieves.

[edit on 29-3-2010 by Divinorumus]

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
What about the poor that aren't lazy?

How can someone be NOT lazy and poor? Are they not making good use of their time? Do they have no ambition to better themselves? Are they merely working easy dummy jobs that don't pay much because they don't like responsibility or challenging jobs that pay a lot more? Are they up playing video games and blogging all day and night instead of improving their lives? What is preventing them from becoming wealthy if they are not lazy? Is there some law somewhere that says they must be poor? I know some dudes that claim that they are poor but these idiots spend many hours every evening watching teevee and playing computer games and surfing the internet .. when they could have been out earning money to pay for their keep.

Certainly nobody on this forum are poor because 1) they obviously can afford a computer and internet access and the time to surf (which means they must already have health insurance, right? I mean, you buy THAT first before you buy toys, right?), and 2) if you are poor, what are you doing wasting your time blogging on the internet, hum?

What a disgusting nation this is becoming. First it was just the rich that wanted to take advantage of us .. now the (so-called) poor want to do the same. I say screw them all, I'm so sick of everyones lame ass excuse for their predicament and how they want to rip off their neighbors to better themselves. Disgusting. It use to be you had to protect yourself from the enemy .. now you have to protect yourself from your own thieving citizens. Disgusting.

I am sure its been said before, and I am sure it will be said again and again.
Nothing pure works...pure capitalism leads to corporatism, Pure socialism leads to stagnation, etc.

The best systems are the ones that take a socio-capitalistic approach that gives the basics of life, health, and education, then let the people work up from there based on their effort or intellect. People need to strive and compete, but with the knowledge that the fall will not be a lethal one, just one that effects pride.

Originally posted by Divinorumus
Are they merely working easy dummy jobs that don't pay much because they don't like responsibility or challenging jobs

That is also known as upper management.

Originally posted by Divinorumus
I'm going to declare this nation is no longer under any god. One nation, under satan, is more like it now. what a bunch of immoral thieves we have become in this nation.

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Where in here does it suggest Rich people need to keep their riches in order to be considered godlike...or a nation that protects the rich.

By this command, a socialist state would be far more godly than a capitalist system...but hey, since when did we start using the bible to describe what is and isn't godly...thats what politicians are for