Socialism is NOT a bad thing

Originally posted by Cynic
State run health care is a complete disaster. Just look north to the Canadian cluster ph*ck. Danny Williams went to the US for his heart repair since he couldn't get it done quickly enough. The wait times are atrocious and finding sa doctor is near impossible. User pay system is NOT available here.

Socialism sucks @$$ big time my little friend.

Have you taken a look at the state of your own health care system? It appears that it has as many flaws as the Canadian system, if not moreso.

Unable to afford insurance? too bad. Suffer. Or Look forward to a life time of indebted slavery.

Everything in the USA is motivated by profit and greed. Even the health of human beings is capitalized upon.

Something like fourty thousand Americans die every year based upon this flawed ideology.

In Canada, ones wealth doesn't dictate the quality of care one recieves. Everyone is treated equally in that regard.

Any system (Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism) is as good as its members are.

All the above systems fail if people are willing to exploit the system.

Socialism has been broadened to mean simply.... hoping for utopia.

This too is socialism. Imagine everyone on the same page. There is a reason why we oppose each other and each others will. We do not understand there are some things we all want. Together we can accomplish more than if we stand alone.
I remember it sticking in my head long ago...when the hippies chanted it in the streets RUSSIAN MOTHERS LOVE THEIR CHILDREN TOO. Of course. Lest we forget. Anything else is hyperbole.

Why shouldn't we all want the same thing? Why shouldn't we cooperate with each other? I see beauty in a single wolf howling his lonesome tune but you gotta admit there is something to be said for this too...
For those who want an end result larger than the sum of it's parts. Synergy is an extra factor an unaccounted for beneficial energy unit, we can only have it's benefits if and when we cooperate or trust each other. I have seen it operational in emergencies, disasters and we all have seen synergy at work in some form in sports or military accomplishments, even the space program.

It is raising Socializing to an art form.

I think part of the problem is that many ATSers use the word "socialist" to mean "asshole", apparently without any understanding of what the word actually means. It gets even more ridiculous when people conflate socialism & communism. When it gets totally ludicrous is the further conflation with fascism. Its almost as if people think that the more words they feel are perjorative that they can hyphenate together, the more persuasive their argument is. Sadly, in many cases, it seems they are correct. Oh well. In the next 20yrs we are going to see the complete collapse of the mistaken notion that there is any such thing as a free market. It'll be very painfull. Oh well...

Well I am from Europe and I can tell you socialism is not good in any way shape or form.

Socialism is slavery and that's that.

but I know many people who live in socialist states love it just as the north koreans love it.

Even though the end result remains to be seen, Congress and their Staff are immune from the mandated health care. You suppose they had a reason? Perhaps the same reason border hospitals and clinics are overflowing with Canadian Patients? I've seen that first hand so no reward for denying it and lying about it.

We are different. Why not leave it at that instead of engaging in childish attacks?

The true story here is the methodology. Three fourths of us did not want this Bill to pass. They lied, cheated and bribed it into existence and don't give a damn what the majority wants.

We wanted health care reform. We did not want it this way. Obviously neither did Congress or their Staffs as they made sure they were exempt from the mandate. They are saying that you get a ten year old Ford Focus and us; We will drive our Lincoln Limo's and you will like it.

Another thing those from other countries keep ignoring, is we already had health-care for everyone. The problem is the illiterate and those who don't care would not fill out the paperwork the providers needed to get stuff paid for. Add to that tens of millions of Illegals getting free health care and we have a problem. This solution though is just plain the wrong answer.

Pretend for a moment the US does not exist. Now for arguments sake, say that Canada filled our role in all the wars and in our role in the world right now. You would have a huge Military to pay for you don't have right now.

Now lets also imagine that with no US, new drugs and treatment were paid for by Canadians themselves. No more cheap drugs on the backs of the country that paid for their development. You pay for the development yourselves.

The truth is in the middle somewhere. One thing that never was true is that there is no help here for the uninsured. That was a bald faced lie. We do have people who can easily afford health insurance who don't get any and then dump the costs on others when they have a dire need. We do have tens of millions of Illegals here sucking the hospitals dry. Those things are true.

I have been paying for my own due to preexisting conditions. Not the insurance companies fault. An bankrupt insurance company helps nobody. Only a child would think differently.

So how has that worked out for me? The hospital gives me half off for paying up front. My Wives last Surgeon knocked off half and the Anesthesiologists took of a third. They smile when they do it because they make more profit off half than they do taking those on the dole. If I get into financial trouble I qualify for all sorts of other aid. I know, I've been there. Why people lie, I don't know. Some kind of political madness I suppose (pun intended).

I don't tell my neighbors what to do or how to live because it is none of my business. They show me the same respect. Why not leave it at our countries are different, but both are wonderful places to live, just different. Everything else is just veiled bigotry and beneath us as human beings.

apart from spoutin ignorant prejudices, there is a greater task here. Renewal of communications.
When a socialist appraises capitalism it is via his or her system of beliefs. When a capitalist believer appraises socialism it is filtered through ther ingrained ideas. Now you cannot create a real dialogue that way. It is as if Muslims were attacked by Christians and vice versa. Terence McKenna said both systems could work if they were left alone and unmixed. Globalism just churns up the salad with the dessert instead of a dressing would not result in a tasty meal.

I suggest reading a post as if that person would be believable to you, and would have background arguments. Skip "principles" coming from great men, and famous quotes - authoritarian thinking is always bad in philosophy and economics. Write what I think if you believe me, what you realy think etc. Comparison is a sticky subject for it frequenty comes down to conflict which is bad argumenting style and inefficient too.
Ideas compete at the mental market and the amount of time you spend of them is payment. So if you spend four ours of your life debunking a Socialist - you strengthened it by that. And more than likely you have not even begun to understand their point of view.

I like the American poseter here who is a socialist but says he flirted with ilbertarianism. That showt to me he has experienced the RESULTS of thinking that way.

Write what your values and goals are, and what thesis could be from the inside - a if you pretended to understand the vision of the world of the other person.

THEN you can compare elements of this vision, finally unbiased.
How many unbiased people write here?
And how many that can be still convinced?
Most posters sound like they are dug way down into their trenches.

There could be a new style of socio-capitalism worked out. The problem is power, fear and greeed. Those are never leading to conducive agreements.
It seems Americans are redefining themselves in the light of health care bill. Basically redefinition has been quietly undergoing in conspiracy theories for a long time.

People feel better when their bubble is bursted.
Why don't you accept the other guy is right JUST for two weeks, and then see what you come about to? That is a good way of handling supposedly antithetical systems of thought.
then you can deal with the nitty-gritty.
How does the Konfucian ethics and the Internet contribute to a morphing of state capitalism in the East?

[edit on 3/28/2010 by Kokatsi]

reply to post by Longtimegone


dude the whole reason america went into depression was because there was more credit floating around than real money or assets. I dont totally take credit away from them though, they privatised the regulation around such markets....therefore allowing it to happen.

"Some are too lazy to put in the hard hours to learn a skill, cultivate a natural talent, or persue an advanced education." - seriously?????
what about the child of a hooker? what chance does she have?? your saying a homeless man would be able to become a school teacher if only he had enough enough willpower to get a job? that is some of the most ignorant bulls**t iv ever heard...

What freedoms are being taken away by democratic socialism? and this coming from someone who lives in a country that is so free that if someone is wearing a turban they will become the automatic spectacle of any passers-by??

wtf dude........seriously

[edit on 28-3-2010 by OLDMATE]

Originally posted by Longtimegone

I am proud to be an American. More importantly, I am proud to be born in a country that gives me so much freedom guarenteed by the Constitution. Please do not take away my freedoms because you feel bad for those who expect the government to take care of them.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Longtimegone]

I bet youre not saying that in the next fives years. Youre constitution is slowly being eaten away.. HERE'S A SECRET, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!!
If youre health care system goes the same way the NHS has in the last fifteen years, America's in big trouble.. The goverment doesnt care about anyone but themselfs and always have. (FACT)

It doesn't matter what people call it, socialism, communism, etc., nor how people define it.

This is the only thing people need to get through their heads: LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE!!! Leave all those alone that don't want to play commie games with their lives.

Don't come around tell ME what I MUST do for you or someone else's benefit! PERIOD! That's it, it's that simple.

The day someone tells me that I must WORK for their benefit is the day I start FIGHTING BACK with whatever it takes to get them off my back. Failing that, I'll hurl myself off a cliff and take all the monkeys hanging on my back with me, ha!

Leave those alone that want to be left alone!!!

Really, it's that simple people. Leave those alone that don't want to play WHATEVER you want to call it or however you want to define it. Stay off our backs .. or else!

Gee, how much more simpler can it get. Those that want to play socialism should go play socialism among themselves and leave those that don't want to play that game alone!!! Heck, lets divide this country in half and the commies can go play their monkey games on one half and the rest of us can go mind our own damn business on our half.

Really, why don't you commies make socialism voluntary, hum? Don't be forcing YOUR ideologies down my throat .. or I'll shove mine up yours!

Originally posted by Divinorumus
It doesn't matter what people call it, socialism, communism, etc., nor how people define it.

This is the only thing people need to get through their heads: LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE!!! Leave all those alone that don't want to play commie games with their lives.

Don't come around tell ME what I MUST do for you or someone else's benefit! PERIOD! That's it, it's that simple.

The day someone tells me that I must WORK for their benefit is the day I start FIGHTING BACK with whatever it takes to get them off my back. Failing that, I'll hurl myself off a cliff and take all the monkeys hanging on my back with me, ha!

Leave those alone that want to be left alone!!!

Really, it's that simple people. Leave those alone that don't want to play WHATEVER you want to call it or however you want to define it. Stay off our backs .. or else!

Gee, how much more simpler can it get. Those that want to play socialism should go play socialism among themselves and leave those that don't want to play that game alone!!! Heck, lets divide this country in half and the commies can go play their monkey games on one half and the rest of us can go mind our own damn business on our half.

Really, why don't you commies make socialism voluntary, hum? Don't be forcing YOUR ideologies down my throat .. or I'll shove mine up yours!

id just like to point out one simple thing wrong with your arguement....
democratic-socialism isnt communism....
other than that i agree, let others decide how they live they're lives. period.

reply to post by ShadeWolf


Capitalism in its undiluted form is nothing but dog-eat-dog uncivilized behavior that is beneath a sentient being.

A hybrid system that if you are more innovative and work harder you get more, you can be an entrepreneur and still have the American dream.

You just don't end up with godlike wealth and power.

Those resources of Godlike wealth then gets put back into the system so we all live better and have more opportunity. Nothing wrong with getting rich and I believe that in a hybrid system you would have more opportunity to be rich than in this one that has the few at the top taking most of the cream.

Its so simple, yet Americans are afraid and brainwashed and is bereft of original thought. Most Americans thoughts originated in a big business think tank.

Originally posted by OLDMATE
reply to post by Longtimegone

 

"Some are too lazy to put in the hard hours to learn a skill, cultivate a natural talent, or persue an advanced education." - seriously?????
what about the child of a hooker? what chance does she have?? your saying a homeless man would be able to become a school teacher if only he had enough enough willpower to get a job? that is some of the most ignorant bulls**t iv ever heard...

wtf dude........seriously

[edit on 28-3-2010 by OLDMATE]

heh... 'dude', we live in a country where the president is the son of a goat herder in Africa! What more proof do you need that you don't have to be born into a perfect life to succeed in America?

Isn't it rather funny that all those that want a socialist world can't make it work on their own and so they need the mandatory participation of all those that don't want socialism but could make it work. What if we all decided to leave the planet and set sail for another new world, one far far away from this one? Them commies would sure be SOL and up a creek without a slave to paddle for them, ha.

What's wrong with those that want to mandate that others should do things for them? Where do they get off thinking they can shove their ideologies down everyones throat? How dare they!

I'm against any kind of mandatory socialist scheme for one simple basic reason: it's immoral! And if it's immoral, it's got to be a sin.

So .. count me OUT! Enslaving others to do what they don't want to do for the benefit of another (particularly under mandatory conditions) is something I would also think all them religious people should be totally against. Certainly enslaving others to do stuff for you and to fulfill your desires must be a sin and a sure path to hell. Right? Or is slavery now vogue again? Someone check the dogma, we may now no longer be a nation under god, ha .. not unless god endorses slavery.

Help us, jebus, help us. I think we need a new president, one that will enact another emancipation proclamation to save us from the enslaving ones !!!

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Divinorumus]

reply to post by Divinorumus


You know what does bother me? People who want to freeload off of government and society like you.

If you do not want to be expected to contribute to the greater good, or "be left alone" as you put it, then leave society, just go.

If you do not want to be told what to do, do not use any government services or funded services at all. That means no roads, no internet, no power (it is subsidized in most countries) no schools, no emergency services, no military protection, no store-bought food or drugs, no job and a whole host of other services. Stop using them, all of them, now.

Society is like software, to use it you must agree to the terms of use.

reply to post by beaverg


HAHAHA thats rich that really is...

Are you trying to tell me in a capitalist society everyone has an even playing field? Because thats what im getting.

Also im not saying that someone from a low income background cannot be successful in America, but!, could this not be said of ANY system? What im saying is that a capitalist society is the one of the hardest in which to become successful. Unless of course you come from a rich family.........

[edit on 28-3-2010 by OLDMATE]

I would think the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution could stop this mandatory so-called reform.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

What crime are we guilty of?

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Divinorumus]

Originally posted by Divinorumus

I'm against any kind of mandatory socialist scheme for one simple basic reason: it's immoral! And if it's immoral, it's got to be a sin.

So .. count me OUT! Enslaving others to do what they don't want to do for the benefit of another (particularly under mandatory conditions) is something I would also think all them religious people should be totally against. Certainly enslaving others to do stuff for you and to fulfill your desires must be a sin and a sure path to hell. Right? Or is slavery now vogue again? Someone check the dogma, we may now no longer be a nation under god, ha .. not unless god endorses slavery.

Help us, jebus, help us. I think we need a new president, one that will enact another emancipation proclamation to save us from the enslaving ones !!!

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Divinorumus]

Sorry to tell you but democratic-socialism is not mandatory....the only thing im "forced" to do is pay taxes, which in all honesty i dont resent at all because if i didn't pay them how would the government fund things like road systems and HEALTH CARE. And while i pay "mandatory" taxes, they are not so different from your own i would guess (although i will say i dont know your taxing system in detail).

To make the statement that socialist societies, of any kind, are "immoral" is ludicrous. Reverting to religious dogma is not thinking indivually my friend.

P.S. I am in NO WAY trying to say socialism is the only way for a country, not at all. Im trying to say its not slavery or oppression or any of the other silly notions...



[edit on 28-3-2010 by OLDMATE]

No successful system should evenly distribute things, regardless if you worked for it or not.

If I took the actions to do better, and live a better life, then no one should be forcefully sticking their hands in my pockets. I happen to be a giving person, but I also believe help should only be temporary, until a person can get themselves back on their feet. Then help goes away. I realize there are exceptions to this. But for the most part that's the way it should be.

No, a person shouldn't have to die from cancer, but I can say our health care in general should not be as expensive as it is. It's ridiculous to have to pay near a $1000 to get care on the way to the hospital in an ambulance.

When I say Health Care Reform, I mean, you take health care, you improve it. You throw out the unnecessary profit machines in place, you get rid of the criminal activity, and you get down to really helping people. If telling getting the person to take extra Vitamin D is the best solution, instead of surgery, then then extra Vitamin D is what the patient gets. Drugs would be used where they are needed and not beyond that. Numbing someone before surgery is fine, but hooking them on a lifetime of medication is a sin, if there is a better, safer, natural solution. And you offer this care at a price that makes sense for the vast majority of the population. Again, you help the person, try to get help them back on their feet, find them a job, so they can repay their debt. But, you know what happens when you keep helping people that simply refuse to try to get back on their feet, and refuse to accept your efforts to stand them back up, even though they are able? The end result is you keep dumping money at this person, and they don't improve. We don't "owe" people like this money.

But anyway....

You should be free to strive to be what you want. Dream the big dreams. And dammit, if you want a private jet in your driveway, then you should be able to have it. No restraints on how much you can achieve. Tell me why America shouldn't be big booming and productive, full of wealthy people? Why not? But, that, of course doesn't mean we should be free to rip people off to do this.

People don't need more restraints and laws, that is, unless they are truly criminals.

Troy

[edit on 29-3-2010 by cybertroy]

[edit on 29-3-2010 by cybertroy]

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


You know what bothers me? People who advocate a Leviathan government and then call anyone not in favor of such a beast a freeloader. It bothers me that the priest class socialist will stand, literally or metaphorically, upon their alter and preach the greater good, with no regard for what is good. Good is either self evident or it is not good, and can only be, at best, potentially good. If it is good, it is observably so. Instead of attacking other people, and calling them freeloaders, as surely that sort of behavior is not going to accomplish any greater good, why not just make your case for socialism and show what, if anything, is observably good about socialism?

Fallacious arguments that offer solutions to opposing concerns by ratcheting up that which the opponent is concerned about, is not observably a part of any greater good. If one person, or several, demand they be left the hell alone and everyone stop telling them what to do, and your response to that is tantamount to telling them what to do, how do you expect to facilitate any real communication or debate in this manner? By telling those who want to be left alone, that they should move somewhere away from "society", you make several presumptions that reveal vast reserves of arrogance.

You First presume, by telling others what to do in the name of "society", that you are the proper authority to speak for "society". Secondly, you presume that society demands a surrender of individual autonomy, and most importantly you presume that society is nothing more than a written program of rules and procedures, and a terms of use contract applies.

All contracts, if they are to have any validity at all, are binding agreements by two or more parties, where all parties involved are in agreement as the the terms or conditions of an outcome. No one can be forced to contract who is not in agreement with that contract. If an agreement is arrived and the parties have entered into a contract, all parties involved have expectations of outcome from this agreement, and each party is bound by contract to the other, to perform certain functions.

Coercion is not contract. The notion of a social contract can only work in a metaphorical sense, but has not legal standing under the law of contracts. In a free society people have the right to contract how they see fit. In order for a socialist state in any form to survive politically, the state must coerce those who are in disagreement with their policies into compliance, or leaving. Surrender or retreat are the only options under this scenario for those who find such policy tyrannical, but in a free society no such coercion is presented as legal, and any coercion taking place can be handled in a court of law.

The individual does not exist because the state or "society" allows them to do so, it is quite the opposite. Individuals come together, usually with the idea of forming more perfect unions, and form societies to achiever a greater end. However, the end does not ever justify the means, and it is observably so, that the means are always justified one way or the other in the end. Those who impose a gargantuan state upon the individual and justify by an imagined end that accomplishes some greater good, only fails, never achieving any greater good, constantly demanding more in order to continue failing in its tyranny and throughout history this is the end of tyrants and that end is always justified by the means those tyrants used to get to that end. Conversely, if the means used to accomplish the greater good are policies that respect the rights and freedoms of the individual, then there is a far greater likelihood of some success in achieving a greater good.

The state can not exist without individuals, but individuals can exist without the state. First there were people then there were governments and those governments that govern effectively understand the basic dynamic between them and the people and that is the government can not exist without people, but people can exist without them. A government that understand this understands their proper place as government which is to serve and protect the rights of the individual.