The social issue no one in Australia wants to talk about

Originally posted by Ha`la`tha

Originally posted by pieman
right, scrap the current government, set up a system of governance based on either the traditional governance methods of the indigenous population or another system chosen by the indigenous population. then have every single non-indigenous person apply for residency and citizenship in the same way that any other illegal immigrant would have to.

Oh man... now I know you have a problem...

What about the mixed blood Aborigines? Do they have to apply also, or do they only have to half apply? Or quarter apply?

Man ... honestly?? Is that you're solution??

to be honest, i really wouldn't expect something like that to work but i think it's a worthwhile thought exercise.

it's always been my impression that austalians are a fairly racist bunch. by and large, racism and racist thought seems to be fairly acceptable to australians, even from reading this thread it's clear that a lot of the australians don't even seem to know exactly what racism is and, if racism is pointed out, the response is usually "you don't know what these people are like, if we can't talk about them as if they're scum, we can't talk about the problem realistically"!!!

i think a good step toward solving this issue in australia would be for white australians to start thinking of themselves as the descendants of "illegal immigrants". might instill a touch of empathy.

as others have pointed out, in a far more eloquent way than i have, what is required is a few generations of support and respect. given the chance, people will always accept society, eventually. if you treat them like rubbish and ostracize them from society until they pull themselves together, they never will.

for instance, if you build 20 houses to rent to aboriginals, you isolate them from the larger society. this breeds division and racism, in both communities.

a few people have pointed out that "they were built a tract of houses and they wrecked them" as if building a tract of houses specifically for aboriginals is a good idea. if you won't live next door to someone, how the hell are they supposed to feel part of your society?

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by Retrovertigo
I'm surprised the govt hasn't extended this to other centres of indigenous population (like Fitzroy Crossing)...

are you?
it seems to me that every time an indigenous people pull themselves together they start doing crazy stuff like looking for their land back or for their culture to be respected, the government have a strong interest in keeping them drunk and downtrodden.

Provide examples. You know, evidence.

Originally posted by C0bzz

Provide examples. You know, evidence.

of what? indigenous people fighting government for land/mining/water rights or stated government policy of keeping indigenous populations impoverished?

i said it was in the governments interest, i didn't say i could prove they were doing it, if i had proof of that it'ld be with the UN human rights commission.

Originally posted by intrinsic
What do you expect when yuo treat people like trash and feed them trash? It's just typical anglo elitists trying to get rid of the blacks.

I went right through school with aboriginal kids. They have every chance the same as I did.

1. Free education up to Yr 12
2. Free medical
3. Cheap government housing.

They choose to ruin things themselves. I have seen brand new houses trashed in 12 months. Even down to the toilet being smashed to pieces.

It is just their attitude.
To prove this point. In the neighbourhood I lived in there were two aboriginal teenage girls going to year 12 at high school. They had to be driven to school & then picked up again afterwards. There was a free local schoolbus. The girls were trying to improve their own lot in life. The girls were regularly bashed & spat upon by other aboriginal kids because they were accused of trying to be white & to live the white man's way.

Sorry if this upsets you but the majority of aborigines in Australia have just as much white blood in them as they do black. It's just that claiming you are aboriginal gets you more governmental handouts than other people receive.

Recently there was a claim for land rights near Canberra. There man's skin was white.

Modern examples of both; they must be relevant to what the Australian government has done in recent years and we, and my taxes, are going to now. Let's not pretend we can fix this social issue just by "asking the aboriginals what they want", nor should we pretend that the root of the issue is the government forcing western culture on aboriginals. That's not happening, anyone whom has actually been to these places can tell you that. So instead of complaining about how apparently oppressed the aboriginal community is, could you cite some examples of what the government is doing wrong at this moment, and also provide some evidence based solutions that can fix these problems?

Your last solution was to abolish the entire Australian government, form an aboriginal governement (well actually it would be a few hundred governments) make 21 million people apply for citizenship, and deport the rest. You then told us to "man up and take responsibility". How would deporting every single person with a foreign ethnic background help the aboriginal situation, how would it bring their culture back? And how would it improve their living standards? Furthermore, we cannot man up and take responsibility if your only suggestion is the impossible and with no citations. Hence my original point and question - instead of complaining about how apparently oppressed the aboriginal community is, could you cite some examples of what the government is doing wrong at this moment, and also provide some evidence based solutions that can fix these problems, perhaps something in the realm of possibility this time?

[edit on 25/3/2010 by C0bzz]

What you're seeing is a natural response to being placed in an unnatural and unhealthy environment. They don't like being in boxes and no one should. Home construction, in general, anywhere, is very inhumane. The world has dramatically lowered it's magnetic field and oxygen and hydrogen are no where near as plentiful in the air as it once was. Then we put people in boxes that isolate them from the natural magnetism and encourage them to re-breath the same air leading to ever lower oxygen (purifier of the body) and hydrogen (fuel of the body) and what do you get?

Originally posted by C0bzz
Modern examples of both; they must be relevant to what the Australian government has done in recent years and we, and my taxes, are going to now.

okay, went to google and typed in "land rights australia" and the secound result was this here's an excerpt

In July 1991, however, the land Rights Bill was rejected in the upper house of State Parliament. Since then, the new Tasmanian Government has indicated that the bill will not be reintroduced. In response to the defeat of the bill, Aboriginal people occupied Wybalenna on Flinders island. Part of Rocky Cape National Park had been occupied a few months earlier.

Tasmania is the only State in Australia not to have enacted some form of Aboriginal land rights legislation.

it's not hard to find examples. i really have no interest in going any further to try to prove that native peoples want to have rights to their own country, i mean, work it out.

as regard to it being the stated policy of any government, as i have said, it isn't the stated policy of the government, it is the inferance of the fact that the government don't enact policies that work.

this is a conspiracy site, i assume you're familiar with the concept of joining to dots to discover the motivation behind government policies that, on the surface, seem obviously counter productive.

Originally posted by C0bzz
How would deporting every single person with a foreign ethnic background help the aboriginal situation, how would it bring their culture back?

i hate having to repeat myself, so i'll try to make this simple enough that i won't have to.... again.

i said that if you believe that the indigenous people have it sooo good, then why wouldn't they just keep things as they are?

it won't give them their culture back, it'll give them their country and their dignity back.

it's a thought exercise, you know ... thought?

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by C0bzz
Modern examples of both; they must be relevant to what the Australian government has done in recent years and we, and my taxes, are going to now.

okay, went to google and typed in "land rights australia" and the secound result was this here's an excerpt

In July 1991, however, the land Rights Bill was rejected in the upper house of State Parliament. Since then, the new Tasmanian Government has indicated that the bill will not be reintroduced. In response to the defeat of the bill, Aboriginal people occupied Wybalenna on Flinders island. Part of Rocky Cape National Park had been occupied a few months earlier.

Tasmania is the only State in Australia not to have enacted some form of Aboriginal land rights legislation.

it's not hard to find examples. i really have no interest in going any further to try to prove that native peoples want to have rights to their own country, i mean, work it out.

as regard to it being the stated policy of any government, as i have said, it isn't the stated policy of the government, it is the inferance of the fact that the government don't enact policies that work.

this is a conspiracy site, i assume you're familiar with the concept of joining to dots to discover the motivation behind government policies that, on the surface, seem obviously counter productive.

So one state wont enact native title, yet the federal government and the other 7 states/territories do and native people dont have rights to their own country ?

Please...Stop being selective with your evidence and deliberately dishonest...

Yes, this is a conspiracy site, and joining dots to discover motivations of governments, etc its often quite valid...Except when the example you're trying to prop up is nothing more than delusions brought on by paranoid schizophrenia...

Not everything is a conspiracy, PARTICULARLY on here...

Now, take your Zyprexa, go sit in the corner and be quiet...

Originally posted by Retrovertigo
So one state wont enact native title, yet the federal government and the other 7 states/territories do and native people dont have rights to their own country ?

Please...Stop being selective with your evidence and deliberately dishonest...

not sure i could make it a lot simpler. maybe i aimed a little high in expecting you to know what i meant. let me spell it out.

it is in the governments interest to keep as many aboriginal people as possible from demanding their water/land/mining rights, because when they demand their rights, the government come under pressure and end up having to give them something.

if the government weren't giving them anything, they wouldn't have an interest in keeping them messed up!!

the guy wanted an example of people asking for their land rights, i picked that one because it was top of the search list in google. it's as much an illustration as to how easy it is to find the information as it is an example of the problem being discussed.

Originally posted by pieman
the guy wanted an example of people asking for their land rights, i picked that one because it was top of the search list in google. it's as much an illustration as to how easy it is to find the information as it is an example of the problem being discussed.

You picked that one because it was top of the google search list ??!!

You've got to be #ing kidding me ?? And you honestly expect anyone to take anything you say seriously when the best you can come up with is the top of the google search list...

Too lazy to do any kind of research ?

This PROVES you have no idea of what you're talking about when it comes to this subject...Everything you've said in this thread is bunk and your credibility is a big fat zero

Like I said, take your Zyprexa and pipe down...And while you're at it, wipe your mouth...Its dribbling something that doesnt normally come out of ones mouth...

[edit on 25-3-2010 by Retrovertigo]

i said that if you believe that the indigenous people have it sooo good, then why wouldn't they just keep things as they are?

I never said they have it 'sooo' good; don't put words in my mouth. I am asking you what should be done to fix their obvious problems, you cannot seem to realistically answer any of these questions.

it won't give them their culture back, it'll give them their country and their dignity back.

But then you're assuming that the aboriginals have no dignity, and then furthermore assuming that the social issues pertaining to them are caused by the lack of an aboriginal state and having the aforementioned assumed lack of dignity. It's obvious that the Aboriginal culture within Australia is severely broken thus it seems highly unlikely that awarding them the keys to a nation would solve any issues, to the contrary, I would say that a broken culture running a nation results in a broken nation. Perhaps they could regain their dignity if they stopped sniffing petrol? Perhaps we could solve that through better education, or even reteaching their former culture, which I might add, is what (from what I understand), is happening?

okay, went to google and typed in "land rights australia" and the secound result was this here's an excerpt

But Australia is not going to be handing out land to Aboriginals just because they, whether fairly, or unfairly, believe they own it. It's not realistic and recognition of this by the government does not mean the government is keeping them 'drunk and downtrodden'.

[edit on 25/3/2010 by C0bzz]

Originally posted by C0bzz
I never said they have it 'sooo' good. I am asking what should be done to fix their obvious problems, you cannot seem to realistically answer any of these questions.

Don't bother Cobzz...When I asked EXACTLY the same question this time yesterday, I got EXACTLY the same answer given to you...

This poster is a lost cause I'm afraid...Lights on, nobody home and so on...

[edit on 25-3-2010 by Retrovertigo]

Originally posted by C0bzz
It's obvious that the Aboriginal culture within Australia is severely broken thus it seems highly unlikely that awarding them the keys to a nation would solve any issues, to the contrary, I would say that a broken culture running a nation results in a broken nation.

Look this is pretty much right. We get guys from the Islands coming over here like Samoans and Tongans. They say we have no soul.

And realistically what leadership do aboriginals have? The corrupt self serving politicians and land councils? We don't see any of that money.

My biggest problem in life (my mum was stolen generation) is that I don't have family. I don't have uncles or cousins or anything. I never had that stable family with assets from generations ago to drawn on. I have to start again with nothing. No history no family nothing.

If I just had some land or something anything to just give me a chance I know I could do well and survive. I wouldn't even need much help.

I would love, and I dream about just having my own land and being self sustainable with clean water and food that I produce myself. Away from the cities and the people and the government.


[edit on 25-3-2010 by belial259]

reply to post by belial259


Yours is EASILY the best post in this thread...Written by someone who knows a helluva lot more about the subject than the rest of us put together, methinks...

I REALLY hope you get your dream of some primo land where you can be self-sustainable and live the way you want to as one with the land

reply to post by Retrovertigo


just randomly abusing me is probably fun and all but you should be aware that a) i don't give a rats what you think and b) you're really just illustrating my point beautifully, you're too ignorant and abusive to do anything to help, and you're not even the worst in the thread.

you told me yesterday that you were going to stop replying to me, so stop already.

reply to post by C0bzz


the biggest stumbling block is that you guys don't seem to understand what the problem is, so when i suggest a solution, it's so far from the racist little comfort zone you've created, you can't even see it.

here's my solution, as simplified as i can make it, understand the nature of your own flaws, correct them, and then help others to understand and correct their flaws.

Originally posted by C0bzz

okay, went to google and typed in "land rights australia" and the secound result was this here's an excerpt

But Australia is not going to be handing out land to Aboriginals just because they, whether fairly, or unfairly, believe they own it. It's not realistic and recognition of this by the government does not mean the government is keeping them 'drunk and downtrodden'.

[edit on 25/3/2010 by C0bzz]

No ofcourse not. They'd rather let the UN and the corporations steal it from us. Even Antarctica should be aboriginal land and Americans and UK and Argentina try to take from us.

All this fake philanthropy from the posters in ATS. Do you really care about aboriginal land rights? Do you know because of the UN and agenda 21 many aboriginals are persona non grata inside their own country?

Even farmers are getting kicked off their land.

The CROWN is the major landholder in Australia. I'd like to hear one good reason why she should own and profit from what is rightfully mine?

Even based on the carbon offsets or the mineral rights on my tribal land I should be a multi millionaire but no. I have to struggle with nothing to make a new life and a new family in the city and assimilate.

Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Retrovertigo

 

just randomly abusing me is probably fun and all but you should be aware that a) i don't give a rats what you think and b) you're really just illustrating my point beautifully, you're too ignorant and abusive to do anything to help, and you're not even the worst in the thread.

you told me yesterday that you were going to stop replying to me, so stop already.

A) You deserve it...Ignorant people need either a good smack in the head with an axe handle and/or a good dose of eugenics IMO...And you're a fine example of that...

B) *just laughs*

As long as you don't sprout un-truths about what is happening here, I won't reply to you...If I did the same about wherever you come from you'd be the first person on my case, so quit the hypocrisy, eh ?

However, if you continue to do so, I will prove you wrong over and over till the cows come home...

You guys want to think about this too.

The UN can take our land and lock it up. We can't even clear brush. The Crown still owns massive amounts of prime real estate and doesn't even pay taxes on it. We can't use that land it's sitting there doing nothing locked away from ALL AUSTRALIANS.

If we used Aboriginal land rights and established Aboriginal custodianship over the entire country like the Maoris have we could do an end run around the UN and the Queen and take back control over what is ours.

Aboriginals should return to our traditional roles of custodians of the environment. Protectors.

At the moment farmers aren't even allowed to do things like backburn before bushfire season but we used do to this stuff for thousands of years.

Originally posted by Retrovertigo
A) You deserve it...Ignorant people need either a good smack in the head with an axe handle and/or a good dose of eugenics IMO...And you're a fine example of that...

i say you should give australians their land back, you say that i'm ignorant and i should be beaten or killed for it, that's your problem right there. i mean, how the hell does anyone stand a chance.

I will prove you wrong over and over till the cows come home...

work away, if you think insults prove anything beyond your own stupidity, keep 'em coming.