The American way. The Right way. THE ONLY WAY!

reply to post by endisnighe

I remember it, it is a great thread. I flagged it. I re-read parts of it now. It is an advance in legal philosophy to point out that the constitutional republic should protect people against even the majority. America was set up so that various kinds of people could enjoy the maximum freedom - and sometimes agree to disagree. Later all kinds of Americans were specifically lifted among the ranks of those affected by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution - it is true that initially Native Americans or women or Black people were not supposed to have the same rights (this points to namah's post as well.)

The Iroquis principles of tribal confederacy were even more that way than Rousseau. Keep in mind that in most American Indian nations, the majority could never enforce their will upon the individual. As far as I know, the hardest punishment was ostracism from the tribe. No police went to your tent to enforce tribal decisions. Everyone was heard, even if it took days to discuss an issue. A chief was mostly a chief because they had good negotiating powers. And there was no one chief of any nation - the Europeans assumed that the military chief was THE chief. However, every nation had several chiefs, for example the mediating or peacemaking chief was usually an older wise woman.

The philosophy of the US Constitution has certainly retained some elements of this, new to the rest of the world.

At the same time, it is difficult to say these days that there is no need for police - or even for giving basic health care. This is no longer a frontier society. For hundreds of years, there was a psychological element in the US similar to a type of Native American experience, in that if you absolutely do not agree with a group, you can go away and they will leave you alone. There were vast lands towards the West where you could live in complete freedom - and danger, if you chose to do so.

What follows from your post - if government is assumed to be completely under the control of the corporate elite - is that we are hemmed between two evils, which have one and the same root.

And that maybe it would be a time for a revolution to take back some of that power.

In that, many different kinds of people could cooperate. Leftists, rightists, truthers, environmentalists, spokespeople for natives, libertarians, true (old-style) conservatives etc. Neo-conservatives would greatly dislike it as they are a Theocratic group. (They could do what they want as long as they do not infringe upon the freedom of others. But that group is particularly disposed to do just that.)

The point is - we all dislike the power of Big Corporatocracy. I personally tend to support only small scale, sustainable capitalism, with social provisions, and more and more limitations with size - enforced by the government of the people etc., while others may want something different. At this point I have no choice, if I went back to live in America, I would have to deal with corporatocracy.

So: originally the US government was supposed to be a government scrutinized constantly by the people, a government by the people, of the people etc. We no longer have this dream working. It could be resurrected though.

It still remains though that legal entities cannot vote. However, they circumvent this with their contributions. The whole point of a CR was that the exercise of power would be removed from those who have power anyway.

Many so-called modern democracies modeled themselves after versions of this model - very few people make the difference you made in your thread. But even democracy would be better than corporatocracy. It would still put some checks on unlimited power of some grups over the freedom of individuals. Once government was really checked and scrutinized, in every way people want it (and I do think this is practicaly possible), government would be not a principal evil by itself. In a true CR, it would actually be a good thing, serving the people as much as they want to be served.

Right now, in 2010 there are precious few legal battles where weakening the government would result in more individual freedom.

My point is that people are taught by the MSM and ther elders to think in anti-government ways because they automatically think it is an American style. No, a well-scrutinized government maintained for the interests of all citizens would be the American way originally. It was the Royal government that the FF disliked, and their experiment was whether any good government could be erected - one that contained and respected differences (as a true CR would).

Also, in general, (this is no longer in answer to the very intelligent contribution I was addressing above), it shows with many people in the US there had been a bit too much brainwashing on the topics of Socialism, Communism etc. for a number of generations. It cropped up in this thread too. I think both Socailism and Communism have been progressive movements initially, by their founders intentions, trying to give more freedom to individuals. It would be a welcome addition to separate Soviet Bolshevik dictatorship from the ideas of Marx and Engels, whose whole point was that you cannot be truly free if you live in poverty imposed by an organized plutocracy. We cannot simply equate the ideas of the US Founding Fathers with the Iraq war, for that matter. The Soviet Union did not experiment with any form of Socialism, only nominally. It was a brutal modern Theocracy. Marx and his followers in the 19th century did not know everything, but they are certainly not the devils that the cold war propaganda painted. Sweden in the twentieth century is a better example of a social democratic governance where differences are allowed. Capitalism seemed to work hand in hand with socialistic measures there for a while.

Of course, that goes with much higher taxes for the well-to-do. (Not for the poor - they were better off.) But please do not equate freedom with greed. The founding fathers of the US were concerned with freedom, not greed. The two have little to do with each other. For a poor person, more money could mean more freedom. However, the freedom the think tanks of the corporatocracy want us to consider is more freedom for their collective greed.

Is that much better than other kinds of collective greed?

I just want to briefly make a note to point out the fact that ignorance know's no nationality, no racial barrier or religious barrier, and is not gender exclusive.


There are stupid people everywhere you go, in every corner of the world, in every lifestyle, every region, every town and state. Almost all cultures are exclusive and prefer their own way of life to that of another, and contrary to some people's belief are not welcoming and accepting of new ideas with open arms..


My point is _______ (fill in the blank) people aren't just ignorant.....PEOPLE in general are ignorant.

Maybe in a perfect utopia everyone would be open minded and willing to learn from each other in a civil and diplomatic manner, but one look at the world that we live in and you will see that is just not the case.

Don't believe me, turn on the world news.

Originally posted by endisnighe
Sorry OP, it is MY WAY or the HIGHWAY.

Take away the FORCED policing, the FORCED donations of moneys, the FORCED food distribution and the US would be able to take care of everyone in the US and probably HALF the world. NOW, if you can stop our government involvement in CRAP that we want them to stop. MORE POWER TO YOU.

But for me and millions of other Americans, we have tried to stop them. You tell us how and we will get it done.

How bout that?

I just had to do it. I put this out there to a friend who is now saying "Why Not?"
Plus we can piss off TPTB big time.
Heard of the movie "Trading Places"
Let's trade places with the corporations. Start a not for profit (grant our money back to us) corp called "We The People, ltd". Have our Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. as the Corporate Bi-laws! Get all Americans to join paying a membership fee of say $10 and use that to do what all the oil companies do - BUY LOBBYISTS TO GET ARE LAWS CHANGED BACK!
OH
And do like the NSA did when they set up their charter: They don't recognize laws that do not have their name directly in them.

You'll need a lot of diapers for the rich if this is done.
:: giggling ::

edit here/had to include this:
Let there be charters all over the world - the We the People International and then it will be us instead of the 300 that rule the world.
:: big fat smile ::

[edit on 24-3-2010 by DaWhiz]

reply to post by without_prejudice


I see where you're coming from. But schools teach collectivism, they are run by the government. When I came to this country 20 years ago I took everything I was taught about freedom to heart. I didn't learn it in schools, I learned from my own family history. I read the Constitution every day, I read the Federalist Papers every day, I read the Articles of Confederation Every Day. I burned the Declaration of Independence into my psyche. I absorbed the philosophies of Cicero, Plato, Jesus Christ, The Bhudda, the Qur'an in order to understand the philosophy that lead to the Founding.

None of what is happening today should be tolerated by any American who believes in the promise of hard work, personal liberty, and personal responsibility. The government does not guarantee your rights, you do. This nation wasn't intended to create a ruling class, or to have the people dependant on the ruling class. We fell asleep because we stopped believing in the principles that made us the strong independent nation we once were. Today the Constitution is a menu or a suggestion rather than the Supreme Law that my immigration papers told me it was. Today our history is something to be derided rather than learned from and celebrated. We are taught to hate ourselves and be afraid of each other, we are taught that two corrupt parties have a monopoly on good ideas, we are taught that the corrupt congress that started us on the path of war in the Middle East and torture has our best interests at heart when they pass "health care reform".

We have become so used to being handed things in return for our freedom that we decry calls for revolution(of ideas or rifles). We got the government we deserve for abandoning who we are to purchase a little comfort for a little freedom. And now here we are.

I still believe in the principles that once made America great.

I just don't really like America that much due to a lot of Americans having some sort of superiority complex. It's really no wonder why they're a hated nation in a lot of areas in the world.

So what if America has a huge military? So what if you're a patriot that wears your political alignment on your sleeve? Seriously, it's all that sort of crap that ends up causing dissent among the human race as a whole. America may not be the only country that does this, but it sickens me that even the media in my country has to always look at America like it's some sort of god. Why the hell do we really have to keep an eye on the political progress of America? In retrospect, I guess we only have our media to blame for that.

I don't know, I just really hope there's a revolution in America soon, and I hope that it is for the better. I mean, seeing as you all like to talk about your guns and right to bear them so much, why not put them to use already? I'm sick of having to hear "lol im a patri0t and i hav gunz nd a bbq hellyeah america the gloriusss!!11". Just shoot up the White House already.

reply to post by Whine Flu


You didn't read the OP or the thread, did you? Please stick to the topic. Bashing America isn't it.

reply to post by projectvxn


I would have given you 5 stars for that one but could only offer one. I agree with what you wrote entirely.

It makes me sad in a way that so many people who were born here, who's family has been here for generations, can't find it in them to see what a great set of ideas this nation was founded upon.

People wont realize this until it is far past the hour to be able to do anything to change what is coming.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by Whine Flu

 

You didn't read the OP or the thread, did you? Please stick to the topic. Bashing America isn't it.

I did, but eh, this thread's one of the more valid places for it. Kinda.

reply to post by Kokatsi


Excellent breakdown.

I have been looking for some Native American political or sociopolitical breakdown analysis. I have read a little on certain tribes but nothing that examined the hierarchy or rule in regards to political systems.

In one thread I likened some of the American Indian political structures to the closest thing to have existed, to a pure Libertarian Society.

In regards to all sides coming together to throw out the corporatists, I could see a true ownership of the national banks, where the profits from interest actually go back to the people, to sustain almost any social system. Without even any form of taxation being needed at all on labor. Yes, maybe some sales tax such as the Flat Tax could be implemented, but things like food, clothing and personal residence being exempt.

Ones labor was never meant to be taxed. I think this is where we totally went off track here, not to mention the Federal Reserve. If one uses a fiat currency, what need is their of a private bank. A person such as you or me could create our own currency.

I have actually been thinking of writing up a possible monetary system with that very idea. Need to work out the machinations on it though.

Career politicians another thorn in the side of true self governance. The increase in the government, is almost a self sustaining fusion reaction. Consuming more and more of surrounding particles. 600,000+ statutes and counting.

Yes, the fear factor of the isms ingrained in the minds of the people.

Well, to not get this thread off topic I will stop here. Excellent comment and I have bookmarked it to read through it again to get some brainstorm ideas from it.

Thanks for the discussion.

reply to post by drwizardphd


In this country, particularly in the South (don't flame me, I live down here and if you've been down here you know it's true), there is an attitude that anything that isn't distinctly American is somehow wrong.




funny you say that Last year i went on vacation/death in a family claim trip legal matters ) down in the south Tennessee
Chattanooga i thought the same thing all American right !? Wrong

when i got there i got some gas for my car at the station it was run by Indian/Pakistani's then i got a room for 3 days motel run by a family of Indians(from India ) that barely speak English then i went to the Mall all before i went to explore the area well Pakistanis i said WTF is going on here then i decided to look around the city all type of Foreigners every where i went it this place the American's are the minority a Quit a few Mexican's( not Mexican descent) but right from mexico that barely can speak English and this is Tennessee not Texas or California Chattanooga is a hub for 4 states you would think Swamp of American Culture Born People White black Hispanic , nope Foreigners not born/from this country the biggest laugh was at the mall there this eatery that said big neon sign American Stars! run buy again Pakistanis ! pretty soon Cultured Americans(Native American Whites Blacks Hispanic Asian) will be the minority

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Speaking as someone who is British, I'm not really familiar with this view at all. It's actually contrary to to the idea of British which is a union of countries drawn-up together. Similarly, there's also the Commonwealth, which is another 'coming-together'.

Yes and the U.S. has our Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, etc.........Still, we are the U.S.
Not arguing anything.

I honestly think that a lot of the "British" attitude towards Americans is more a case of 'who the **** do you think you are?' as in 'who do you think you are to think you're better than us?' rather than us thinking we're actually better than you. There's a big important difference there. It's the difference between Americans going on and on about being #1 and non-Americans saying 'no you're not' and being critical of Americans but still not saying 'no, my country is #1!' Honestly, I never hear any significant amount of people from any other country other than America speak the way they do.

You think you're better than Americans, because WE SAY WE ARE BETTER? oooookkkkkay........
I haven't heard it much, but I have heard Americans at fourth of July and such say things like that.
I have also seen British and others (not all of course) speak condescendingly of our citizens and our 'ignorance'. ESPECIALLY FOR US SOUTHERNERS.
So, do I get my knickers in a twist? No. But this thread makes NO sense to me.
"We're better than Americans, because Americans think they're better!"
Don't you see the irony??? ROFL

reply to post by DaWhiz


You know, I have to ponder that idea. Somewhat off the cuff but it could be workable. I mean that.

I have been looking into creating a corporation for myself with my name. Just in all small letters. I would work for myself and because I am a corporation if working for another corporation, I am no longer a person subject to all of the income taxes and such. I would be subject to standard corporate taxes alone. I could write off all my expenses due to the fact I am a corporation now. Now, some people have been saying the government has created a straw man for us already, well why not just use their trick and make another straw man?

I do not know if this has ever been tried.

Your idea uses it in the macro instead of the micro. Pretty cool idea. Maybe you should write a thread on that.

Originally posted by gaurdian2012
excellent post my canuck brother. americans think, no believe they are the center of the planet possibly the universe. there arrogance is there greatest weakness they will fail because they percieve themselves better than the rest of the world. they are in for a rude awakening, there empire will fall like all the others before them. they are allready bankrupt. they have 2 wars they cant afford there banks need bailouts there cars are crap. sorry to offend but anywhere you go on the planet they are hated. next will come CIVIL WAR. i just hope they dont invade canada

First of all it's "their" not there.....

Please dont group all Americans into the same category. Our country is run by crooks who dont listen to the people thank you very much. The ones in power are the ones who think they are the center of the universe! They dont care about anyone else but themselves and what they will get out of it.
,

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely

From the Canadian Constitution:

FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOMS.
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

Thank you so much. That is what I wanted to know.

Now to my next question and I'm going to make a statement that is irrelevant but may fend off a wrong impression of what I'm trying to understand about the difference between the US and Canada.

I do not like Colter nor do I agree with her methods. Here however, her opinion is protected as Free Speech.

She was advised she could be arrested for speaking at a Canadian University. I don't get that, in fact one of your own government officials stated categorically this morning in an interview that Canada does not have the Right to Free Speech. What you posted does mention opinion.

Ironically while writing this, another expert from Canada just explained it.

Apparently Free Speech does apply but not on a Campus or any Publicly Funded Institution. Which says to me, you do not have the right to free speech inside a school. That sounds very much like the sort of thing we are trying to stop from happening here. That means only government approved speech is allowed in your schools. Sounds dangerous to me, should the wrong people get into power in Canada. When you control what students are taught, you can brainwash at will. Mao for instance used that as a tool.

As to this thread, that would explain why Canadians misunderstand our desire to protect free speech, even if it means letting some vile people speak. Controlling any speech is very dangerous to us and any country in our opinion.

reply to post by Blaine91555


but you do control some speech. Death threats, false 'fire' and 'bomb' and 'rape' cries, and laws like libel / deformation of character, ect. It's a good thing these controls are in place, but they are still controls.

reply to post by sstark


Those are threats, which is assault. Battery is the actual violent act. Yelling Fire is an attempt to cause people harm.

Also knowingly making a statement that causes a person financial harm is not allowed.

People get the wrong idea from the video's and what not we see here. For instance when you see Anarchists arrested. What really happened is that they committed a crime first, filmed being arrested and then they lie about why they were arrested.

When you see students here protesting a speaker, it is they who are breaking the law by denying the speaker the right to express their opinion without threat.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Ooohh you just gave me an idea Blaine, can one sue police officers if they do not allow free speech?

Could people start suing them in civil court?

Originally posted by Risen

Originally posted by Legion2112
As an American, it seems to me that there is a substantial portion of this thread that fails to differentiate between the American people and the American government. If you're of the opinion that the American government is overbearing, arrogant and lacking the fundamental understanding that what works for us doesn't necessarily work for everyone else, join the club - we meet every Thursday and we've made t-shirts

Then I'd ask the American citizens to stop feeling like it's a personal attack on them when people in other countries criticise things their government does. That's really where most of this percieved 'hate' stems from. Someone from another country says they don't agree with the war in the middle east or something, then some wild eyed US citizen starts screaming about how they hate America.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by Risen]

Well, I can only speak for myself soooooo as far as other Americans, it's like I said - some agree with what I say, some don't. Fact is I don't take offense when eyes from outside our borders criticize our government. It's no better or no worse than what I do on a daily basis. Part of living in a Republic whose leadership (these days it seems) does things a lot of us don't like. Far from feeling attacked, I feel it shows that there are other people that recognize America's importance in a global community and care enough to call our government out when it acts like an irresponsible drunk. Like I said though, a lot of Americans feel this way, a lot don't.

Problem is the wording - take the first few pages of this thread for example. There wasn't a whole lot of "The American government this," or "The U.S. Senate that." It was a whole lot of "Americans, Americans, Americans." Just the perception is all.

Back to the American government though; keep it up. They sure as hell don't listen to the people who voted them into office. Maybe if enough people in this world call a spade a spade, then maybe, just maybe, the government "of the people, by the people and for the people" might just act on behalf of the people instead of the lobbyists that fund their re-election campaigns.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by Legion2112]

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely

From the Canadian Constitution:

FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOMS.
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

Thank you so much. That is what I wanted to know.

Now to my next question and I'm going to make a statement that is irrelevant but may fend off a wrong impression of what I'm trying to understand about the difference between the US and Canada.

I do not like Colter nor do I agree with her methods. Here however, her opinion is protected as Free Speech.

She was advised she could be arrested for speaking at a Canadian University. I don't get that, in fact one of your own government officials stated categorically this morning in an interview that Canada does not have the Right to Free Speech. What you posted does mention opinion.

Ironically while writing this, another expert from Canada just explained it.

Apparently Free Speech does apply but not on a Campus or any Publicly Funded Institution. Which says to me, you do not have the right to free speech inside a school. That sounds very much like the sort of thing we are trying to stop from happening here. That means only government approved speech is allowed in your schools. Sounds dangerous to me, should the wrong people get into power in Canada. When you control what students are taught, you can brainwash at will. Mao for instance used that as a tool.

As to this thread, that would explain why Canadians misunderstand our desire to protect free speech, even if it means letting some vile people speak. Controlling any speech is very dangerous to us and any country in our opinion.

I recall a certain Iranian President with awesome fashion sense who had similar trouble